496 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Atlas is a tank... not a DPS master.... play in a team that let's you use it as such and you will be fine.

Except its not good at tanking. A Stalker is better at tanking. It has a much smaller profile plus the side torsos help protect the center torso. Where on an Atlas you hit exactly where you want to hit...

Theres really no role an Atlas performs that another mech cant do better. Especially with Crabmunity Warfare coming out soon.

Edited by Khobai, 08 December 2014 - 01:35 PM.

[The Boz]

Can someone please explain to me the purpose of tanking in this game? It's easier to outgun than to outlive, and it's impossible to outnuissance without outgunning, so the role of a tank is rather superfluous...

[superteds]

Khobai, on 08 December 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

Except its not good at tanking. A Stalker is better at tanking. It has a much smaller profile plus the side torsos help protect the center torso. Where on an Atlas you hit exactly where you want to hit...

not saying stalkers aren't tanking, but a stalker will lose the vast majority of its weapons by using ST's as a shield. An atlas will lose 2mlas or 2llas by using it's arms.

The Boz, on 08 December 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

Can someone please explain to me the purpose of tanking in this game? It's easier to outgun than to outlive, and it's impossible to outnuissance without outgunning, so the role of a tank is rather superfluous...

drive a centurion.

[The Boz]

I have a few of those. Shield-arming isn't "tanking" as a role.

[pwnface]

The Boz, on 08 December 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

Can someone please explain to me the purpose of tanking in this game? It's easier to outgun than to outlive, and it's impossible to outnuissance without outgunning, so the role of a tank is rather superfluous...

In a brawl being able to tank damage through torso twisting allows you to retain much of your firepower when your weapons are on cooldown.

For example, Atlas intiates a brawl alpha strikes enemy mech for 70pts with AC20 + 4SRM6. It now has 4 seconds before its weapons can fire again. During these 4 seconds, torso twisting and tanking damage allows you to survive/retain weapons before being able to fire another alpha strike. If you were to face up with an enemy Dakka Wolf during those 4 seconds, it would be incredibly easy for the enemy mech to hit your CT/ST which would knock out your weapons and kill you rather quickly. Spreading the damage would allow you to win encounters against mechs that outgun you.

In group play, it is often beneficial for a tank to soak up enemy damage and draw enemy fire in order to allow teammates to fire at enemies without being fired upon. For example, the DRG-1N currently has a ridiculous 18dps God Hand but is incredibly squishy with only 40 armor on that arm. If the Atlas can survive for 10-15 seconds of drawing enemy fire, that is allowing the DRG-1N 10-15 seconds of significantly higher DPS than what the Atlas is capable of alone. Being able to tank damage and survive under concentrated fire can be incredibly beneficial for a team if they are able to take advantage of that situation.

Edited by pwnface, 08 December 2014 - 01:47 PM.

[Belorion]

superteds, on 04 December 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

thanks for that screenshot, with this overwhelming proof we can just lock this thread and en-masse sell our atlas'!

Lots of wasted damage there... it doesn't take that much damage to kill 8 mechs.

[Lock Down]

Tlords, on 04 December 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

In General assault mechs are liabilities the way most of the game maps are today. Yes it is nice when an atlas or dire wolf can sneak up on a mech unaware... though this is true of any mech.

I routinely kill assault mechs with lights, heavies, and mediums. I admire the assault pilots, as they are the hardest mechs to pilot. Today, it is too easy for me in a Raven or Jenner to run at an Atlas or Direwolf and live long enough to core out one of their torsos and even kill them. My experience is that as a light pilot I do not fear assault mechs. I think there is something to be said about this.

There is something about the lag shield I see in my lights. Image an Atlas if they had the same advantage I have in my lagshielded light moving 140+ kph.

This is exactly part of the problem a light will run into a group a of assaults with pretty much immunity and no fear of dying!!
you can alpha a light to ct zoomed in with a 59 alpha and nothing happens hit registration or net code blows against lights! If you don't agree you're probably a nut huggin light mech pilot. Bring collisions back too a jenner the runs head on into my groin area should take massive damage due to cockpit location.

[The Boz]

That sort of "tanking" is not a role, it is a game mechanic. It boils down to the fallacy of equivocation, see. You "tank" damage, but you're not the "team tank", nor does your team need a "tank".

[Khobai]

Quote

not saying stalkers aren't tanking, but a stalker will lose the vast majority of its weapons by using ST's as a shield. An atlas will lose 2mlas or 2llas by using it's arms

Yeah but stalkers have more hardpoints to begin with. Plus Stalkers have nice high energy hardpoints which lets them snipe way better than an Atlas.

The Atlas is just a terrible mech.

[pwnface]

The Boz, on 08 December 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

That sort of "tanking" is not a role, it is a game mechanic. It boils down to the fallacy of equivocation, see. You "tank" damage, but you're not the "team tank", nor does your team need a "tank".

That largely depends on what your gameplan and strategy is. If you are largely playing solo then "tanking" is probably not a good idea. There are definitely drop decks that don't require/need/want a tank, especially if you are focused on more long range combat. At the same time having a 3 brawl Atlas push can be incredibly effective when used correctly.

Khobai, on 08 December 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Yeah but stalkers have more hardpoints to begin with. Plus Stalkers have nice high energy hardpoints which lets them snipe way better than an Atlas.

The Atlas is just a terrible mech.

The Atlas and Stalkers serve different roles. A competent Atlas pilot will out brawl a Stalker every time. A competent Stalker will beat an Atlas at range every time. While Stalkers can brawl and tank to some degree, the Atlas is much more suited to doing so.

[InRev]

Lock Down, on 08 December 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

This is exactly part of the problem a light will run into a group a of assaults with pretty much immunity and no fear of dying!!
you can alpha a light to ct zoomed in with a 59 alpha and nothing happens hit registration or net code blows against lights! If you don't agree you're probably a nut huggin light mech pilot. Bring collisions back too a jenner the runs head on into my groin area should take massive damage due to cockpit location.

That must be why the light queue is absolutely overflowing and definitely NOT at around 9-14% on any given night, right?

Granted, not that I mind. It means I get instant queue times in my Ember, which is helping my C-bills per hour dramatically.

As for the rest of the discussion, all I can add is that my personal performance in my Awesome goes up significantly when there is an Atlas on my team vs other assaults. It soaks up more damage, but also puts out less of its own. Good for me, but I pity those who pilot them.

[Khobai]

Quote

A competent Atlas pilot will out brawl a Stalker every time.

Not at all. Brawling Stalkers have been beating Atlases since the Stalker first came out.

[Slater01]

Simply - Atlas pilots are better than Dire Wolf pilots.

So I see the argument, but considering the power of Timberwolves and Stormcrows, I think DireWolves aren't all that more powerful than there 100ton IS counterpart.

[Richard Warts]

The Banshee is the only competitive assault the IS has until the release of the King Crab. Still, the Clanners out range us, can sport more damage output per mech, and have more survivable XL engines. Even with the quirks IS groups are going to have a tough time in CW. It will be interesting to see how the map changes within the first month.

Edited by Tabu 73, 08 December 2014 - 04:26 PM.

[bluepiglet]

Tabu 73, on 08 December 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

The Banshee is the only competitive assault the IS has until the release of the King Crab. Still, the Clanners out range us, can sport more damage output per mech, and have more survivable XL engines. Even with the quirks IS groups are going to have a tough time in CW. It will be interesting to see how the map changes within the first month.

IS Assaults are much less dominated by the Clan counter parts than IS Heavy and Medium, because:
1) They are less XL engine dependent
2) They are more suitable to mount IS Ballistic and LRM, which outperform Clan weapon systems in the same categories.
3) SCR, HBR and TBR simply break too much balance in their own weight classes that Dire is unable to catch up with their OPness.

Edited by bluepiglet, 08 December 2014 - 04:52 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

bluepiglet, on 08 December 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

IS Assaults are much less dominated by the Clan counter parts than IS Heavy and Medium, because:
1) They are less XL engine dependent
2) They are more suitable to mount IS Ballistic and LRM, which outperform Clan weapon systems in the same categories.
3) SCR, HBR and TBR simply break too much balance in their own weight classes that Dire is unable to catch up with their OPness.

I disagree. While the TBR does clearly outclass all IS heavies, there is a lot closer parity in the medium category due to IS 55-tonners with JJ being able to take much better advantage of terrain than stormcrows.

Assaults, on the other hand, are totally dominated by the DWF outside of focused drop decks where people bring other assaults for better speed synergy with brawling TBRs and mediums.

[Johnny Z]

I was in the Atlas needs love camp before, but since I have given the King Crab some thought I am even more convinced the Atlas needs something and maybe the Man o War to a lesser extent.

I think the safest way to go is increase the internals by a fair amount. I think some of the light mechs need this also.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 December 2014 - 06:07 PM.

[bluepiglet]

Lefty Lucy, on 08 December 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

I disagree. While the TBR does clearly outclass all IS heavies, there is a lot closer parity in the medium category due to IS 55-tonners with JJ being able to take much better advantage of terrain than stormcrows.

Assaults, on the other hand, are totally dominated by the DWF outside of focused drop decks where people bring other assaults for better speed synergy with brawling TBRs and mediums.

Well, Dire while excels in many aspects, does have its weakness. Beside the most obvious its slowness, it cannot mount large amount of SRM. Most of its builds more or less rely on Clan Energy which has poor damage per Heat value. Most of its firepower houses in arms, ect. All lowers its effectiveness in brawling. A well configured IS brawling Assault has more than good chance to come out on the top in 1v1 if the pilot manages to get the Dire into brawling.

And about the SCR, being as fast and flexible as it is, the lack of JJ is the only thing standing between it and achieving the god like status like TBR.

[Saiphas Cain]

The Existing Atlas quirks could be changed slightly to give better survivability and extend the engagement envelope a bit. If the internal structure bonus were moved from the torsos to the arms the weapons would stand a better chance of surviving longer. Changing the AC velocity bonus into an SRM range bonus would slightly extend the reach and even things up a bit without overbearing I believe. It's not doing terrible the way it is now but these slight adjustments should improve what it already does well and bring it back into line. I'm not sure it needs a torso twist bonus since most pilots upgrade their engine anyway.

[kapusta11]

Now Atlases are obsolete haha.