496 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

DireWolf with two Gauss Rifles, six ERML, and two ERLL have a very, very powerful alpha (90-ish) that deals massive damage at medium ranges... With careful aim it can be delivered to a single component.

And when the DireWolf is hot from firing all 8 ghost-heat-free lasers, it has to use its backup weapons forbself defense when as it cools. Yes, the poor Direwolf has twin Gauss Rifles that generate almost no heat. Backup weapons. Twin Gauss.

An Atlas has no capacity to deliver 90 points of Alpha to one component, and has only 1 component to mount Cool Weapons.

Seriously, the Atlas is at home when you're out in the open, in range of the entire enemy team's short-range weapons. That's about the worst place to ever, ever be.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 04 December 2014 - 07:21 PM.

[Brody319]

Prosperity Park, on 04 December 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

DireWolf with two Gauss Rifles, six ERML, and two ERLL have a very, very powerful alpha (90-ish) that deals massive damage at medium ranges... With careful aim it can be delivered to a single component.

And when the DireWolf is hot from firing all 8 ghost-heat-free lasers, it has to use its backup weapons forbself defense when as it cools. Yes, the poor Direwolf has twin Gauss Rifles that generate almost no heat. Backup weapons. Twin Gauss.

An Atlas has no capacity to deliver 90 points of Alpha to one component, and has only 1 component to mount Cool Weapons.

Seriously, the Atlas is at home when you're out in the open, in range of the entire enemy team's short-range weapons. That's about the worst place to ever, ever be.

King Crab with two AC20, and two PPCs have a very, very powerful alpha (80-ish) that deals massive damage at medium ranges... With careful aim it can be delivered to a single component.

And when the King Crab is hot from firing all 2 ghost-heat-free PPCs, it has to use its backup weapons forbself defense when as it cools. Yes, the poor King Crab has twin PPCs that generate almost no heat. Backup weapons. Twin AC20s.

An Atlas has no capacity to deliver 90 points of Alpha to one component, and has only 1 component to mount Cool Weapons.

Seriously, the Atlas is at home when you're out in the open, in range of the entire enemy team's short-range weapons. That's about the worst place to ever, ever be.

[MischiefSC]

King Crab.

Banshee. That is the IS slot to oppose the Dire Wolf. The Atlas is a support mech, take that as you will.

[oldradagast]

Kiiyor, on 04 December 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

Yeah, I'm not entirely sold. I've mastered the lot of those, except for the WubShee, and in my experience, (not sayin' it's a fact) there are no mechs that can stand against a DireWolf, especially if it's rocking dual gauss. Even though it's ponderous and slow, I've never had any mech as easy to dominate with.

If i'm in a DireWolf, I fear no mech you listed.

Precisely.

There are other mechs that can fill niche roles better, but they need support and teamwork to play out well.. while a Direwolf needs only the most minimal of teamwork that all assaults need (keep lights off me) to be devastating.

The only reason CW won't be filled with nothing but Direwolfs in the assault slot is because of tonnage limits, not because any other chassis can compete with them consistently in that slot.

[nitra]

Sorry but those of us who think the king crab is the answer to the atlas problem we are wrong .

reason why include my self in this is because when i read the ops post, my first thought was king crab problem solved!!

but thats not the answer it dont even address the concerns which are valid.


so lets stick to fixing the atlas

first the atlas is not a support mech .. where did this idea come from??

second the atlas upon the release of the clans, and the advent of more mechs with symmetrical ballistic slots, has suffered as its hard point layout keeps it from being the feared front line assault it is supposed to be.

so as desirable as it is to think the king crab is the fix lets realize that its not, and actually try to come up with some fixes for the the atlas.

[Koda Shy]

little more twist and little more speed is all she needs.

Edited by Koda Shy, 04 December 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[Captain Stiffy]

The problem is that the AC/20 basically sucks now.

The projectile is too slow
The heat is too high for having only 20 damage and heat screwing you if you stack
The projectile is too slow to use it effectively with other weapons and most mechs would only have one
20 damage is not a deterrent even on the YLW with super fast fire. People just ignore it because not only is it rarely pinpoint it doesn't have the punch to deter other assault and heavy mechs anymore
It takes way too many critical slots per damage done
The ammo is way too low to use it on 'maybe' shots all the time

What a crap weapon

[Brody319]

Okay okay, I think I understand now. We want any 2 mechs of equal tonnage to be able to fight each other and always have a 50/50 chance at winning if both pilots have the same skill level.

Yea that is not going to happen. fact of the matter is, if you don't pilot your mech better than your opponent, you will die.

[Kassatsu]

Monkey Lover, on 04 December 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I cant now as im at work posting on my phone. I will tonight. I run low let and arm armor. As its rare for me to drop a arm or leg In a dire. The small laser are backup if I use all my ammo.

If I see a dire wolf's leg turn more orange than the rest within five seconds of engaging, I know he skipped leg day and will leg his sorry behind faster than you could go through his front CT, let alone both front side torsos. Depending on their loadout, you can just use that to guess where you should be firing at, if he's got 3-4 big ballistics and a bunch of lasers, somebody's getting kneecapped.

Edited by Kassatsu, 04 December 2014 - 07:58 PM.

[bobF]

This is the closest personally relevant neckbeard issue I have with this game, so I feel compelled to contribute to this certainly pointless intellectual circlefap.

I love the Atlas, particularly the DDC. It's a synchronous build, the ECM allowing you some opportunities to maneuver well within optimal killing range. You may even have buddies with you, since people like to follow ECM and big assault mechs (they're handy cover). I have the classic ac20 3xsrm6a 2xML build (and AMS, just to be a good guy Greg for the group). I personally feel the 2xLL build runs too hot and the artemis missles give a far better grouping; the mech is honestly for brawling. Leave the LL peak-a-boo cowardice to the lights and mediums imo.

Anyhow, I had great fun with this mech, and personally feared no other. 90% of DWFs I dueled were just overconfident fodder. The dakkawolves don't expect champion torso twisting, and the dual gauss just can't fire off alphas quick enough, or maintain accuracy when getting blasted in the face with salvos of srm. The chief advantage the atlas pilot has has always been the torso twist. Here's a controversial statement: atlai torso twist survivability is actually superior to the TBR.

Then BAP got buffed to 360m. Retired DDC I bought a DWF for c-bills, and always played it in my off rounds (i.e. my team/myself got ggclosed and I ragequit the match). I appreciated it's raw firepower but was always annoyed with it's mobility. When I garaged the DDC a couple weeks ago, I played the DWF nearly exclusively. I got used to it's dumptruck-style handling, and discovered something shocking: the DWF owns all face in the hands of a capable assault pilot.

I run 2xgauss 6xML 2xlrm10a (and still even rock the ams, because I'm a swell fellow like that), the "All-Rounder" build. It's incredibly versatile, and about over 9000 times more deadly and versatile than the DDC (in my personal experience). The entire episode was kind of an epiphany for me: I discovered that I love clan mechs, hate feudal warlords, and much prefer genetically enhanced, transhuman warrior culture.

Short story long, I agree with the OP. The Atlas needs some kind of love. I think some ST internal/external armor buffing would work, and/or a couple hardpoint tweaks. If the chassis had the option to mount some more firepower, with some buffed STs, it would quickly recapture the respect it deserves. In it's current form, for all variants, it doesn't concern my DWF in the slightest.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I wish more pilots leg with me when I see that juicy color orange appear on the paperdoll readout!

[Archon]

*cough* DDC *cough* ECM *cough* super-relevant *cough*

[Artgathan]

Brody319, on 04 December 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

King Crab with two AC20, and two PPCs have a very, very powerful alpha (80-ish) that deals massive damage at medium ranges... With careful aim it can be delivered to a single component.

And when the King Crab is hot from firing all 2 ghost-heat-free PPCs, it has to use its backup weapons forbself defense when as it cools. Yes, the poor King Crab has twin PPCs that generate almost no heat. Backup weapons. Twin AC20s.

An Atlas has no capacity to deliver 90 points of Alpha to one component, and has only 1 component to mount Cool Weapons.

Seriously, the Atlas is at home when you're out in the open, in range of the entire enemy team's short-range weapons. That's about the worst place to ever, ever be.

2 PPC + 2 AC20 = 60 alpha. Not "80ish". Also all of those are pretty hot weapons (AC20 generates 60% of the heat of a PPC), so the analogy kinda fails on all points.

[Moonlander]

Kiiyor, on 04 December 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

Yeah, I'm not entirely sold. I've mastered the lot of those, except for the WubShee, and in my experience, (not sayin' it's a fact) there are no mechs that can stand against a DireWolf, especially if it's rocking dual gauss. Even though it's ponderous and slow, I've never had any mech as easy to dominate with.

If i'm in a DireWolf, I fear no mech you listed.

You should really consider a BNC-3E. I can pull 1k+ every drop for the most part... with ease too and I'm far from any sort of skilled pilot... much easier than I can in a DWF... but it could be because I suck in a DWF? It's just one of those things really. I can punch out a DWFs gauss rifles with relatively no effort with the 3xAC5+4xMPL and then take out the torsos after he's weaponless... or just take out the torsos if I'm able to expose myself. I don't think it's superior tho...

[LawDawg]

I pilot both, and the Dire lays out pain and takes SO much better spred damage and hard points than the Atlas. Hands down

Due to hard points

<Edit to clarify>

Edited by LawDawg, 04 December 2014 - 08:25 PM.

[Kazvall]

If I get into killing range of a DW in my DDC in a one on one, it is going to die.

Edited by Kazvall, 04 December 2014 - 08:22 PM.

[bobF]

LawDawg, on 04 December 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

I pilot both, and the Dire lays out pain and takes SO much better than the Atlas. Hands down.

Oh, it lays down pain, but has less survivability. I hardly bother twisting in my DWF anymore, that long snout just attracts all the pew pew and dakka flying at me, no matter the direction. The Atlas, on the other hand, has huge shoulders that would make a 40k space marine proud. They shield your center bits quite nicely. Hence, even a modest ST buff on them would start to make them fearsome. Throw in a couple more hardpoints and hopefully, one happy day in the future, someone will post a whine/nerf thread about atlai.

One can dream.

Edited by bobF, 04 December 2014 - 08:27 PM.

[LawDawg]

Kazvall, on 04 December 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

If I get into killing range of a DW in my DDC in a one on one, it is going to die.

chuckle

[luxebo]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 December 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

Trial DWs are terrible. My point, however, is not that DWFs are OP, it's that Atlases are severely UP for a 100 ton mech.

Trial DWs are usable to a point where they can change the flow of the battle (sure more optimized builds are better, but still usable), and I know this because I spent a while using it (writing up a trial guide).

I agree that Atlases that are NOT the S and DDC need some help though, esp the K. RS, D, and BH are workable.

Atlas S and DDC are well to do when used properly, plus they nerfed ECM the other day. The thing is that it is a mandatory mech in order to get close in, which is easier with ECM, and the S has a powerful alpha that any DW can't counter in an equally effective fashion in the closer range spectrum. Basically put, DW cannot stand in a brawl in a 1v1 fight especially when the Atlas has the upper hand in ambushing.

DDC/S > DW brawl.
DDC/S < DW long range.

[Elizander]

Here are my problems with Atlases. This doesn't mean that they are the only problems or the most important ones. We each have our own issues with it:

• Heat - Full Brawl Atlas configs overheat quickly and will be forced to cool off before they can finish the job. Sure you can bring Coolshots but who would bring that over Arty and UAV?
  
• Weapon CD Sync - Quirks desync Atlas weapons which relies on firing a quick alpha then twisting away. Making an AC20 fire 0.5 seconds faster than SRM6 is wasted because you should not be face-staring. If you are going to reduce the CD of AC20 you should reduce the CD of SRM6 by the same amount.
  
• Durability - Say what you want, but my Direwolf shoots 96 damage with 30 of that being pinpoint FLD. If an Atlas stares at it for just 1 second or so then his entire CT armor is obliterated.

You can't make the mech do everything and it shouldn't. A brawler should have good heat efficiency, especially an Atlas. It cannot retreat to cool off, it is in the enemy's face. If it cannot shoot back it might as well be part of the environment. If after 3 alphas you have to resort to firing only 1/3 your weapons then you might as well bring a medium mech.


You can probably turn it into a big hunchback by remodeling the RT and raising the ballistic hardpoints onto the shoulder (At least for the K). Side Torsos still go really fast despite the buff. It might need something similar to what the HBKs got (armor + internal) if you want it to matter.

A long-range Atlas is an inferior Direwolf and a Brawling Atlas would be great until it overheats.

Brawlers are close-in guys. You know Ultra Street Fighter 4? There are grappler characters like Zangief that are expected to fight close in. What did they do? They gave him a crapton more health than the other characters because he is expected to take hits while closing in.

Internals also get blown up faster due to crits so 10 internal is not the same as 10 armor.

Edited by Elizander, 04 December 2014 - 08:30 PM.