257 replies to this topic

[Shalune]

pwnface, on 19 December 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

In game VOIP would go quite a ways to bridge this gap, however most units play together and even practice together regularly. Chances are a random group of 12 in comms will still have a difficult time beating an organized team who know each others strengths and weaknesses and have practiced running specific tactics together.

Of the many video games I've played with voice chat built in I only ever found one consistently productive enough not to leave turned off. I don't expect MWO will be the second.

[Sandpit]

LegoPirate, on 19 December 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

yes but most units that could field 12 mans ran several 4mans instead because the 12s queue was dead, which i just explained. aka most of the smaller groups were actually part of larger groups that could(and now do) field 12.

and youre quoting data (which youre too lazy to go and find, but happy to make conclusions from) from years ago? srs?

i'm quoting data from about ONE year ago

do you ahve any data to counter that?
If you do I'll happily go with that. Until you do, yes you stick to factual data that you know instead of "I feel like" data.

Too lazy? No, it's fairly common knowledge and I'm not your personal librarian. I have better things to do with my time than be at your beck and call to go digging through horrible maintained and difficult to find archives. My data is factual.

Yours is.... well yours is backed up with "because I said so"

You mean I actually draw conclusions from factual data released from the devs as opposed to jumping to assertions based on your assumptions backed up by no data?

Well, yea, I guess you're right on that one

[LegoPirate]

Sandpit, on 19 December 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

i'm quoting data from about ONE year ago

do you ahve any data to counter that?
If you do I'll happily go with that. Until you do, yes you stick to factual data that you know instead of "I feel like" data.

Too lazy? No, it's fairly common knowledge and I'm not your personal librarian. I have better things to do with my time than be at your beck and call to go digging through horrible maintained and difficult to find archives. My data is factual.

Yours is.... well yours is backed up with "because I said so"

You mean I actually draw conclusions from factual data released from the devs as opposed to jumping to assertions based on your assumptions backed up by no data?

Well, yea, I guess you're right on that one

youre not QUOTING anything. youre vaguely referencing while providing nothing. i cant counter your nothing, since theres nothing to counter. im not providing your argument for you. thus far youve done nothing but spout statistics from some data that you claim to have seen a year ago.

[Sandpit]

LegoPirate, on 19 December 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

youre not QUOTING anything. youre vaguely referencing while providing nothing. i cant counter your nothing, since theres nothing to counter. im not providing your argument for you. thus far youve done nothing but spout statistics from some data that you claim to have seen a year ago.

sure thing chuckles

[Shalune]

Dahnyol, on 19 December 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

ITT: poor arguments against voip to close ease of communication gap

summary :

ppl will cry and i refuse to understand mute buttons
omg use teamspeak (wat? is this supposed to be a point?)
hardmode = deathmatch with a central objective (aka assault) but with walls!

I just don't think it's going to make the difference people are expecting.

People who are significantly motivated to cooperate and coordinate do have avenues to do so outside of the game. By virtue of said motivation they're very likely to seek this out, and right now it seems pretty easy to find. Obviously there is a group in MWO's population that are motivated enough to genuinely cooperate, but lack the motivation to find these resources, or simply have not found them.

Conversely, open voice comms have downsides too. Namely trolls and generally unpleasant people. In many cases, the presence of these people will cause players to turn off voice entirely, and obviously fosters negativity.

Whether the population that would use in-game voice, but not out-of-game voice is big enough, and benefits would actually outweigh the down sides is obviously a matter of opinion. From my personal experience with voice comms in other games, my own opinion is that little to nothing productive will be gained by including this as the intended audience will get turned off by the vocal minority of trolls.

If it means we see better cooperation, I'd love to be proven wrong.

[Ph30nix]

alot of these problems would be solved if PGI would just implement in game voice coms.

[Sandpit]

Ph30nix, on 19 December 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

alot of these problems would be solved if PGI would just implement in game voice coms.

It's one of those January priorities

[Aresye]

Rhazien, on 19 December 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

I saw a statistic earlier stating the community base was approximately 84% pug players...you truly believe that those folks, only the larger units, need to be considered? Really?

That topic was talking about group sizes and launches. 84% were solo launches, but that doesn't mean that 84% of the game's population are solo players.

Plenty of players in units play the solo queue regularly. If they didn't, there wouldn't be so many players in the solo queue with unit tags.

[Sandpit]

Aresye, on 19 December 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

That topic was talking about group sizes and launches. 84% were solo launches, but that doesn't mean that 84% of the game's population are solo players.

Plenty of players in units play the solo queue regularly. If they didn't, there wouldn't be so many players in the solo queue with unit tags.

I gave up, you're welcome to continue trying though lol

[K0M3D14N]

So here's the thing. I notice that it's typically the OOHRAH HARD CORE YEAH 12 MANS competitive groups that are like "well suck it up." Here's the thing, guys: it's easy to say that when you're on the dealing end of a massive shitstomping. I want to play MWO with a small group of friends to enjoy giant robot shooty stompy action and I literally have no arena to enjoy that anymore. Drop a lance in the pug queue? Hey, more than half your games are going to be against 10-12 mans and you'll be lucky to get another organized lance on your team.

CW? Well, past 8 PM EST you're going to encounter almost nothing but hardcore organized 12-mans and probably get screwed unless they're either bad or you're defending Borealis. I have no interest in joining a big unit and I'm not alone. I want to play MWO with a couple friends and not be kicked in the balls repeatedly for daring to tread into hardcore tryhard territory where having fun is CLEARLY VERBOTEN.

I don't mind the fact that the 12 mans are very effective; they've put in the time and the work and they shouldn't be punished for doing so. What I have an issue with is being told that I can't have fun the way I want to because I don't want to go through the trouble of getting my 3-4 friends in the same unit and dealing with all that entails. There needs to be a balance here. There isn't. At all.

[Sandpit]

K0M3D14N, on 19 December 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

I don't mind the fact that the 12 mans are very effective; they've put in the time and the work and they shouldn't be punished for doing so. What I have an issue with is being told that I can't have fun the way I want to because I don't want to go through the trouble of getting my 3-4 friends in the same unit and dealing with all that entails. There needs to be a balance here. There isn't. At all.

yes there is, that's exactly what the pub queue is for. It's for those times when you don't want to go to the trouble of getting 3-4 of your friends together.

[K0M3D14N]

Sandpit, on 19 December 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

yes there is, that's exactly what the pub queue is for. It's for those times when you don't want to go to the trouble of getting 3-4 of your friends together.

Exceeeeeeept the public queue is also the stomping ground of the big organized 12-mans when you're in a group so that's out also.

[MischiefSC]

The point is not L2P/GG NUB.

The point is that CW is a more tactically complex game mode. In the same way that now that Skirmish exists you really can't ***** about being capped out on Assault or even more hilariously Conquest (seen people ***** about that) you can't complain that in CW matches the group that coordinates wins.

Yes, yes they do. That is, in fact, the whole entire function and purpose of CW. It's a bit coordinated war. Matches are specifically NOT Skirmish with respawn because it's focused on a more tactical approach to each map and position.

So we all do need to 'L2P' CW. We need to learn to play to the team, focus on the win and not damage/kills and pay to the function of our group and the objective. What we do *not* need to do is dumb down and neuter CW so that a casual pug who is used to playing pug drop Skirmish can drop in CW, ignore his team and all chat discussions or tactics or plans, run around and do his derp thing and still feel like he did well.

It's alright to say that in some instances the solution is for people to get better. That's why we have group, pug and CW queues. CW is what you 'work your way up to' in a lot of ways. It is, intentionally, harder than pug or group queues. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. It will just take time for people to get up to speed. The solution is NOT to make CW just a new game mode for pug queue. Sure, put Invasion game mode in pug/group queues. I'm all for it. No mech limits, etc. Mix clan/is, whatever makes people happiest.

CW however is about a fight that's bigger than the people fighting it. Faction vs Faction. Nerfing that makes it pointless. You can't have worlds changing hands and say that you don't have to fight X because it's too hard, but you're allowed to take the planet anyway? You didn't win then. You got handed victory so that you didn't have to feel bad losing to someone who's better than you. That has its place in pug/group queue, not CW.

[K0M3D14N]

Or you could just match small groups against small groups and filling the gaps with other small groups or individuals and let the 12 mans fight each other for dominance. You know. Like they used to.

[Tezcatli]

Basically join a unit. Or get shafted. That's what I've gotten from reading this thread and from what PGI said before. Since it's "Hardcore" mode. Because these big shot hardcore players need cannon fodder. And please. Let's not act like some groups aren't happy to just farm it up. You might as well block solo players from even joining up. Oh but we can't, because there wouldn't be enough players for all the factions. Somehow though it's expected for pugs to just get shafted and still want to queue.

I'm not saying CW should be tuned to pugs. But there should be some consideration given that there is probably a larger pug pool.

[Aresye]

K0M3D14N, on 19 December 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

Or you could just match small groups against small groups and filling the gaps with other small groups or individuals and let the 12 mans fight each other for dominance. You know. Like they used to.

So in other words, you want to be able to attack planets without having to deal with their organized defenders? You want a game mode that is entirely based on organization to be decided by random chance based on disorganization. You want the ability to capture other faction's territories without having to face that territory's main defense.

Yup, sounds totally fair.

P.S. You're also forgetting about the problem with low server population, so you'd be royally screwing over 12man teams with extraordinarily long wait times, which is the main reason the 12man queue died.

Tezcatli, on 19 December 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

Basically join a unit. Or get shafted. That's what I've gotten from reading this thread and from what PGI said before. Since it's "Hardcore" mode. Because these big shot hardcore players need cannon fodder.

Who's got a gun to your head that's forcing you to play CW?

Edited by Aresye, 19 December 2014 - 08:12 PM.

[K0M3D14N]

Aresye, on 19 December 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

So in other words, you want to be able to attack planets without having to deal with their organized defenders? You want a game mode that is entirely based on organization to be decided by random chance based on disorganization. You want the ability to capture other faction's territories without having to face that territory's main defense.

Yup, sounds totally fair.

P.S. You're also forgetting about the problem with low server population, so you'd be royally screwing over 12man teams with extraordinarily long wait times, which is the main reason the 12man queue died.




Who's got a gun to your head that's forcing you to play CW?

Which is essentially what the 12 mans are asking for so hey there pot I'm kettle.

Given that conventional military doctrine is generally "don't attack a fortified position unless you outnumber them 3:1" I don't think a disorganized pub (or small group) is going to have any sort of significant advantage over any other disorganized pub (or small group) in attacking over defending. Defense is, by its very nature, inherently easier.

What you're asking for is to continually roflstomp the **** out of anyone that isn't a 12-man for easy wins and C-Bills. If you actually cared about integrity, competition, or any challenge whatsoever you'd be asking for a change to it also. As it stands right now, the odds of a PUG group actually successfully attacking against an organized defending 12-man isn't absolutely zero but it's pretty close.

If you want to drop in 12-mans understand that you're going to be dropping against other 12-mans and take the good and the bad. Don't just keep asking to shitstomp pubs and call them whiners.

As it stands, small groups are absolutely****** in every facet of MWO. A 2-4 man group will end up playing against groups of 8-12 more often than not and that isn't fun for anyone except the team handing out the drubbing. I'd rather wait a few minutes longer and have a fun, competitive game against 2-3 other 4-man drops than a short wait time and then endure 8-10 minutes of getting steamrolled over and over.

Edited by K0M3D14N, 19 December 2014 - 08:19 PM.

[Roadbeer]

I find it hilarious that since you have to claim a faction to be in CW, that ya'll are arguing w/ people who don't play CW.

[Squally160]

K0M3D14N, on 19 December 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Exceeeeeeept the public queue is also the stomping ground of the big organized 12-mans when you're in a group so that's out also.

EXCEPT youre wrong. drop solo.

*edit( also, even the group q now is basically empty. 12 mans arent farting around in that que, they are playing CW.

Edited by Squally160, 19 December 2014 - 09:32 PM.

[K0M3D14N]

Squally160, on 19 December 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

EXCEPT youre wrong. drop solo.

*edit( also, even the group q now is basically empty. 12 mans arent farting around in that que, they are playing CW.

So my choices are "drop without friends" or "don't play anything at all because 12 mans are the superior species." That seems reasonable.