20517 replies to this topic

[CK16]

Odanan, on 04 January 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

Annihilator? WT...

Yea.....what can you do about them Spheroids though man, I tell you....

[TheArisen]

CK16, on 04 January 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

Yea.....what can you do about them Spheroids though man, I tell you....

It's like they don't realize if you ask for crap you'll get crap.

[Sereglach]

Odanan, on 04 January 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

Annihilator? WT...

As much as I'd rather have PGI make up for the severe lack of lights in the game compared to everything else (and the requisite game balancing to go with the reasons they're hesitant to add lights), I'm not surprised that people want the Annihilator . . . especially with how Heavy/Assault centric MWO has been through most of its history.

1. Hardpoints: It'll have a bevy of hardpoints that are reasonably well spread throughout the mech creating a variety of build options. Also, the variants will be pretty straight forward with lots of laser vomit and dakka ability . . . maybe even an "Annihilistar" depending on what happens after the skill overhaul, the 1E's variant quirks/abilities, and any weapon balancing or meta shifts.

2. Quirks: People expect it to be the Kodiak of the Inner Sphere with PGI quirking making up (if not surpassing) any shortfalls the chassis would have. Almost guaranteed it'd have enough agility quirks to twitch-shoot even if it's got a 250 engine in it. PGI's afraid to leave Heavies and Assaults with the agility they should have and have been quirking them to hell and back (here's hoping that changes/ends with the pilot skill overhaul).

3. Most importantly . . . NOSTALGIA: People look at the mech with rose colored glasses and think of how amazing it was to drive an Annihilator back in MW3. It's not unlike the Bushwacker . . . people have so many fond memories of it through MW3 and 4, yet it looks like it's going to be pretty mediocre in MWO. The Annihilator might have some nice features in MWO, but it's also not likely to be as amazing as they remember it in MW3.

[TheArisen]

Sereglach, on 04 January 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

As much as I'd rather have PGI make up for the severe lack of lights in the game compared to everything else (and the requisite game balancing to go with the reasons they're hesitant to add lights), I'm not surprised that people want the Annihilator . . . especially with how Heavy/Assault centric MWO has been through most of its history.

1. Hardpoints: It'll have a bevy of hardpoints that are reasonably well spread throughout the mech creating a variety of build options. Also, the variants will be pretty straight forward with lots of laser vomit and dakka ability . . . maybe even an "Annihilistar" depending on what happens after the skill overhaul, the 1E's variant quirks/abilities, and any weapon balancing or meta shifts.

2. Quirks: People expect it to be the Kodiak of the Inner Sphere with PGI quirking making up (if not surpassing) any shortfalls the chassis would have. Almost guaranteed it'd have enough agility quirks to twitch-shoot even if it's got a 250 engine in it. PGI's afraid to leave Heavies and Assaults with the agility they should have and have been quirking them to hell and back (here's hoping that changes/ends with the pilot skill overhaul).

3. Most importantly . . . NOSTALGIA: People look at the mech with rose colored glasses and think of how amazing it was to drive an Annihilator back in MW3. It's not unlike the Bushwacker . . . people have so many fond memories of it through MW3 and 4, yet it looks like it's going to be pretty mediocre in MWO. The Annihilator might have some nice features in MWO, but it's also not likely to be as amazing as they remember it in MW3.

Yeah it has good hard points but the giraffe neck and tiny engine negate that. Even with crazy agility quirks it'll be super slow and quirks aren't even going to be around much longer with the new skilltree coming in.

I think 3 is the real reason beyond all others. They just think of what it was like and forget to actually analyze how it'd be in game.

[Sereglach]

TheArisen, on 04 January 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

Yeah it has good hard points but the giraffe neck and tiny engine negate that. Even with crazy agility quirks it'll be super slow and quirks aren't even going to be around much longer with the new skilltree coming in.

I think 3 is the real reason beyond all others. They just think of what it was like and forget to actually analyze how it'd be in game.

Very reasonable points, and it's nice to see we both agree that the nostalgia is fueling the desire more than anything else. There are still some things to consider with any Annihilator implementation.

We have no idea what Alex's MWO version would look like in the end for the geometry/hitboxes. Alex has occasionally made some drastic changes to chassis that retain the feel of a mech but have huge aesthetic and hitbox impacts. Will we see a high-sitting head or low-sitting (there are images out there where the "giraffe neck" is nowhere near as pronounced)? Beer-belly or no? Weapon locations for inflated hardpoints? There's a lot that could make or break the mech there.

On top of that, PGI's been extremely generous with the engine caps of most of the newer mechs. I wouldn't be surprised if the Annihilator would have an engine cap of 325-350 . . . which is well within the range of what many Atlas and King Crab configurations use and would be completely respectable.

As far as quirks go, it's probably a tossup. The reason I made the point I did is because I think most people are probably still thinking of mechs under the current quirk system. Also, we have no idea what "core" and "necessary" quirks will remain baked into some mechs (as per Russ's twitter). People might be thinking the Annihilator would be one of those chassis to have a lot of baked in quirks even after the skill tree overhaul.

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Regardless . . . I'm just happy the next chassis is going to be a light and I'm hoping that PGI spends 2017 doing a lot of shoring up of shortcomings among the weight class both in game balance and the vast difference in numerical volume among the lights vs. any other weight class (as put on clear display in Ovion's charts).

[TheArisen]

Sereglach, on 04 January 2017 - 10:30 PM, said:

Very reasonable points, and it's nice to see we both agree that the nostalgia is fueling the desire more than anything else. There are still some things to consider with any Annihilator implementation.

We have no idea what Alex's MWO version would look like in the end for the geometry/hitboxes. Alex has occasionally made some drastic changes to chassis that retain the feel of a mech but have huge aesthetic and hitbox impacts. Will we see a high-sitting head or low-sitting (there are images out there where the "giraffe neck" is nowhere near as pronounced)? Beer-belly or no? Weapon locations for inflated hardpoints? There's a lot that could make or break the mech there.

On top of that, PGI's been extremely generous with the engine caps of most of the newer mechs. I wouldn't be surprised if the Annihilator would have an engine cap of 325-350 . . . which is well within the range of what many Atlas and King Crab configurations use and would be completely respectable.

As far as quirks go, it's probably a tossup. The reason I made the point I did is because I think most people are probably still thinking of mechs under the current quirk system. Also, we have no idea what "core" and "necessary" quirks will remain baked into some mechs (as per Russ's twitter). People might be thinking the Annihilator would be one of those chassis to have a lot of baked in quirks even after the skill tree overhaul.

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Regardless . . . I'm just happy the next chassis is going to be a light and I'm hoping that PGI spends 2017 doing a lot of shoring up of shortcomings among the weight class both in game balance and the vast difference in numerical volume among the lights vs. any other weight class (as put on clear display in Ovion's charts).

Of course Alex's artwork & how the 3d model are big X factors but when I posted a link to art of a non giraffe necked Annihilator they weren't happy with it.

As for engine cap, Pgi actually has a formula they use and according to it the Annihilator would get a 260 or so (I don't remember the formula exactly) giving it just a 300 would be generous.

For the Anihi to not be horrible the neck needs to be shrunk and get a 300 max engine cap. It's hitboxes would likely still be poor but they'd be workable.

I do hope the IS get a light after whatever the Clans get. Fingers crossed for the Javelin or Hermes. (BTW 95 tonners need more representation too.

[Ovion]

TheArisen, on 05 January 2017 - 01:24 AM, said:

As for engine cap, Pgi actually has a formula they use and according to it the Annihilator would get a 260 or so (I don't remember the formula exactly) giving it just a 300 would be generous.

Stock x1.2 for the limit.
So a 240.

Edited by Ovion, 05 January 2017 - 05:44 AM.

[Sereglach]

TheArisen, on 05 January 2017 - 01:24 AM, said:

As for engine cap, Pgi actually has a formula they use and according to it the Annihilator would get a 260 or so (I don't remember the formula exactly) giving it just a 300 would be generous.

While it's true that PGI has a formula that they generally use . . . there are plenty that don't. The Urbanmech is a prime example of the treatment that the Annihilator would probably receive. However of course we won't know until such a time as the Annihilator were to be announced.

Outside of that I've got to agree with you . . . except for of course choice in light mechs. While I would love to see the Javelin and Hermes in game, I want the Wasp and Mongoose first. As for the clan side, Fire Moth, Commando IIC, Incubus, and Horned Owl are up there for me (in that order).

[FLG 01]

Sereglach, on 05 January 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

While it's true that PGI has a formula that they generally use . . . there are plenty that don't. The Urbanmech is a prime example of the treatment that the Annihilator would probably receive. However of course we won't know until such a time as the Annihilator were to be announced.

Instead of hoping that PGI makes huge exception which would be killing yet another bit of the already low immersion in game (speed of Mechs in relation to each other), and hoping Alex would save it from horrible hitboxes, and hoping PGI hands out generous quirks... why not just choose an assault Mech that comes with good geometry, good engine cap etc.?

It is not like there is a shortage of those.

CK16, on 04 January 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

Yea.....what can you do about them Spheroids though man, I tell you....

You could have set up a poll with more options, especially more sensible options, for starters.
Why you'd include trash like the Strider - a Mech dependant on energy and missile weapons while using fixed SHS - but exclude excellent choices like Spector or Mongoose is beyond my understanding.

Bad poll options generate bad poll results.

[CK16]

Because what I based it on was the more suggested mechs. The ones you mentioned I hardly heard of. Sorry I couldn't dig that deep and make a list 2 miles long. I have 20 options and I choose orginally 12 each, while adding some more. Even if I did, do you think they would be at the top of the votes? I have good options in there and people still choose the Wasp/Stinger and Annihilator over them. Also the Strider isn't getting that many votes so there is that. Most of these good mechs from the IS side are all over the place in terms of suggestions. The IS literally can not make up thier mind on what is good, everyone has 6 different mechs it seems. If the IS really was into getting good mechs they would be voting the hell out of the Nightstar over the Annihilator.

[Karl Streiger]

So when the Anni is a Is Mech - so is the Pulverizer too, right?
Can I have one?

[Gas Guzzler]

Ovion, on 05 January 2017 - 05:44 AM, said:

Stock x1.2 for the limit.
So a 240.

HBK-IIC, stock 200, max 275
FS9, stock 210, max 295
Bounty Hunter 2, stock 225, max 300
Urbanmech, stock 60, max 180 (probably the most relevant comparison, given that the Urbie starts at a ridiculously low speed like the Annihilator)
Marauder-IIC-D, stock 255, max 340
PNT, stock 140, max 250

The game is teeming with mechs that break the rule, pretty much every mech that has been released lately with an unusually low engine cap has got some form of massaging.

Sereglach, on 05 January 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

While it's true that PGI has a formula that they generally use . . . there are plenty that don't. The Urbanmech is a prime example of the treatment that the Annihilator would probably receive. However of course we won't know until such a time as the Annihilator were to be announced.

Yeah, I would be surprised if PGI did not give the Annihilator a 300 engine cap, so it would go Dire Whale speeds which could be workable if Alex does a good job of the geometry.

[Sereglach]

FLG 01, on 05 January 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

Instead of hoping that PGI makes huge exception which would be killing yet another bit of the already low immersion in game (speed of Mechs in relation to each other), and hoping Alex would save it from horrible hitboxes, and hoping PGI hands out generous quirks... why not just choose an assault Mech that comes with good geometry, good engine cap etc.?

It is not like there is a shortage of those.

No offense, but you missed the point. I wasn't saying anything in a sense of hope. If you read the posts leading up to it you'll see we're talking about theoretical reasons of why so many people are voting for the Annihilator.

Me personally? I also hate the high engine caps and absurd agility quirks that PGI has been giving to everything that isn't a light mech . . . I think it's one of the biggest gameplay balance adjustments that PGI (and the players) need to swallow a tough pill and just fix. Funnily enough if the gameplay speed and agility of mechs were better balanced people might not balk so badly at a mech that's more of a very terrifying weapons payload on a slow moving platform; and the light queue might go above 10-15% more often.

The mechs I actually want? Well, they're listed in various posts, but overall I could care less about anything being released that's not a light mech . . . with very few exceptions. I think the Crusader, Clint, and Vulcan are some of the only non-light mechs I'm interested in seeing in the game at this point for the IS; and the Griffin IIC and Shadowhawk IIC are some of the only clan non-lights.

Edited by Sereglach, 05 January 2017 - 09:38 AM.

[FLG 01]

Sereglach, on 05 January 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

No offense, but you missed the point. I wasn't saying anything in a sense of hope. If you read the posts leading up to it you'll see we're talking about theoretical reasons of why so many people are voting for the Annihilator.

Don't worry, just take my response from the same theoretical angle: why choose a Mech with the limitations of the Annihilator which PGI would need to overcome? (Whether you call it hope or reasoning is irrelevant, some supporters of the Annihilator apparently think/hope/reason that PGI would be doing so).

People need to be told there are a number of good options not in need of such treatment.

If they want the Annihilator nonetheless - fine. I am the last to criticize someone for his nostalgia. It is a good reason to want a Mech. Perhaps someone is a huge WD-fan or has fond TT-memories. That is no problem from my point of view. At the same time however, one must be aware of the limitations this design would face and be aware of the other options. And in case of the IS, the Annihilator is nowhere near the best assault option imho.

CK16, on 05 January 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

The ones you mentioned I hardly heard of. Sorry I couldn't dig that deep and make a list 2 miles long.

But somehow the Strider made its way into it. I guess had Mongoose or Spector been featured in MW:4, their chances would have been better...
By BattleTech-standards however they are fairly well known, being covered in TROs, scenario packs etc. since the late 80ies (Mongoose) and early 90ies (Spector). They have quite a rich lore.

I firmly believe we must not limit the options of MWO to what previous MechWarrior games have done or to one's own personal knowledge. Exploring the rich world of BattleTech is worth the effort, and if people were aware of better options (and their history) they might get interested in them and their potential.

For example, I guess many people had no idea the Gunslinger existed before Bishop Steiner's thread but it seems to have been well received, as evidenced in latest threads like this.
In my opinion, that is the spirit in which a poll thread should be executed - no less.

Edited by FLG 01, 05 January 2017 - 10:11 AM.

[Odanan]

And no Fire Moth...

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 05 January 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

And no Fire Moth...

It's only 11am, give them time...also still the first week of January give them time.... By the way have you been watching Russ' twitter? Might be clues there....

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 05 January 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

It's only 11am, give them time...also still the first week of January give them time.... By the way have you been watching Russ' twitter? Might be clues there....

Russ is with pneumonia and will announce next week a Townhall. (maybe that's what is delaying the next light mech announcement)

[Ovion]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 January 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

HBK-IIC, stock 200, max 275
FS9, stock 210, max 295
Bounty Hunter 2, stock 225, max 300
Urbanmech, stock 60, max 180 (probably the most relevant comparison, given that the Urbie starts at a ridiculously low speed like the Annihilator)
Marauder-IIC-D, stock 255, max 340
PNT, stock 140, max 250

The game is teeming with mechs that break the rule, pretty much every mech that has been released lately with an unusually low engine cap has got some form of massaging

because it scales.
Lights = 1.4x Stock.
Mediums = 1.3x Stock.
Heavies+Assaults = 1.2x Stock.

The Anni being an assault, would be 1.2x.
Though yeah, they're often all over the place.

I think +/- 50 rating from stock would work pretty well with basically all the mechs for a limit (up to 21 engines for a mech to choose from).

[Gas Guzzler]

Ovion, on 05 January 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

because it scales.
Lights = 1.4x Stock.
Mediums = 1.3x Stock.
Heavies+Assaults = 1.2x Stock.

The Anni being an assault, would be 1.2x.
Though yeah, they're often all over the place.

I think +/- 50 rating from stock would work pretty well with basically all the mechs for a limit (up to 21 engines for a mech to choose from).

Odd, why is the Jenner only 1.22 then? Should be able to use a 340 which still leaves it below Commando speed.

[Juodas Varnas]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 January 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Odd, why is the Jenner only 1.22 then? Should be able to use a 340 which still leaves it below Commando speed.

Because consistency isn't PGI's strong suit (i'm note sure what is PGI's strong suit, to be honest).
Funnily enough, Wolfhound-1 has a higher engine cap than the Jenner, even though it has a smaller engine stock. (210 stock, max engine 315. (Jenner IIC also has a higher engine cap than the IS jenners, as if it wasn't better in every possible way already, HA)

PGI gonna PGI.