20517 replies to this topic

[FLG 01]

Wence the Wanderer, on 02 August 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

EVERY weight class has advantages in that situation.

That's not my point.

Wence the Wanderer, on 02 August 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

But better at a job is better, and at this point we really have very little that a new mech will actually add to the game.

That depends on your personal preferences. I can imagine plenty of Mechs that would add more than being slightly better at a bad playstyle virtually nobody is using. Don't pretend it is a worthy playstyle, for if it were we'd be seeing those Firestarters.

Here is the most important part: There is a reason a gauss on a light is a rarely if ever seen, and it is not the position of the hardpoint.

PS: changing my quote like that is... well, I better don't go there.

Edited by FLG 01, 02 August 2017 - 06:32 PM.

[Odanan]

Tordin, on 02 August 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

I will be pretty happy if the Flea gets finally included. Due to volumetric scaling, I think it will be similar in scaling size to the Locust AND the Piranha if that one gets added too, might be just as small. As shown.

Flea wouldn't be similar to the Locust, it would have practically the same volume (because, well, in MWO they look almost the same). For the Flea defenders, please tell me what build you want to run on it (and I will tell show you can do it in the Locust).

[Requiemking]

Odanan, on 02 August 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

Flea wouldn't be similar to the Locust, it would have practically the same volume (because, well, in MWO they look almost the same). For the Flea defenders, please tell me what build you want to run on it (and I will tell show you can do it in the Locust).

Fire Ant.

EDIT: No, seriously. I want to run the Fire Ant. 6 MGs and 3 Flamers. Yes, I know it will be next to useless, but I really don't care.

Edited by Requiemking, 02 August 2017 - 06:38 PM.

[Odanan]

If the Hollander is added, I hope it's the Hollander II, a 45 tonner (the same saw in MW:LL). It would be a mini-Hunchback, I know, but at least it could bring that Gauss without too many sacrifices.

The problem is: the Hollander II has only two variants (BZK-F5 and BZK-F7). I guess the other variants could be inspired by those in MW:LL?

Anyway, I don't see this mech as a priority for PGI... and if it comes, I'm sure it will find it's niche (hey, if even the Cougar is making some owners happy...).

[Mechwarrior4670152]

FLG 01, on 02 August 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

That's not my point.

That was exactly your point
And if it was not - then you need to look real close at how you phrased it

Light mechs are better at it than other classes is pretty much how you phrased it
And my counter is that every class has it's advantage there, what advantage lights have is countered by the other weight classes advantages.

FLG 01, on 02 August 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

PS: I like to whine and take offense to anyone who points that out

Then stop whining.

Requiemking, on 02 August 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Fire Ant.

I would buy that.
But I also tend to run light mechs over the other weights.
We need more lights.

Edited by Wence the Wanderer, 02 August 2017 - 06:46 PM.

[Odanan]

Requiemking, on 02 August 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Fire Ant.

You mean the 30 tons mech from MechCommander 2 that looks like a Flea but it's actually named Fire Ant?

OK, it was later introduced to the Battletech canon as a Flea variant. You got me.

In this case, the best one could do is to use the LCT-1V, with 2 less ballistic and 2 less energy hardpoints.

[Requiemking]

Odanan, on 02 August 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

You mean the 30 tons mech from MechCommander 2 that looks like a Flea but it's actually named Fire Ant?

OK, it was later introduced to the Battletech canon as a Flea variant. You got me.

In this case, the best one could do is to use the LCT-1V, with 2 less ballistic and 2 less energy hardpoints.

Still not the same. To be completely honest, there really isn't any IS Light mech in game, 20 tons or otherwise, that can carry the sheer amount of MG Dakka the Fire Ant carries.

Wence the Wanderer, on 02 August 2017 - 06:47 PM, said:

I would buy that.
But I also tend to run light mechs over the other weights.
We need more lights.

We need more Bug mechs. While it is rather unlikely that we'll get the Wasp and Stinger at this point, there are plenty of IS Bugs we can still get. Hornet, Flea, Firefly, Firebee, Scarabus(Yes, I know it has an axe. I just don't care).

[FLG 01]

Odanan, on 02 August 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

If the Hollander is added, I hope it's the Hollander II, a 45 tonner (the same saw in MW:LL). It would be a mini-Hunchback, I know, but at least it could bring that Gauss without too many sacrifices.

The problem is: the Hollander II has only two variants (BZK-F5 and BZK-F7). I guess the other variants could be inspired by those in MW:LL?

Hollander II would be an ok choice for me. Not my first choice, but I would not object. Might be fun. (My prefered member of this Mech family goes by the silly name of Blitzkrieg).

As far as a lack of variants is concerned, it is not like PGI has ever been stopped by it... There definitely should be a variant replacing the gauss with a HPPC e.g. It would be in line with the 'big gun' philosophy, which actually can work on mediums.

Wence the Wanderer, on 02 August 2017 - 06:45 PM, said:

Then stop whining.

You are the one in rage for me saying the Hollander does not add anything, and you are the one throwing insults and deliberately ridiculing misquotations around (some of which are deleted by now). And you did not reply to what I marked as most important point.
I don't think it makes sense to continue.

Edited by FLG 01, 02 August 2017 - 07:09 PM.

[Mechwarrior4670152]

FLG 01, on 02 August 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

You are the one in rage for me saying the Hollander does not add anything..

FLG 01, on 02 August 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

"Would"? You do know that you can do it? Right now.
Get a FS9-H and you can build a Hollander; you can literally build the very same Mech and see how well that goes.

Okay.

In other words

FLG 01, on 02 August 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

I have absolutely nothing positive to say about the Hollander, but anyone who points that out to me is the one whining
SO HAH!

At this point I stop feeding the troll

Requiemking, on 02 August 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

Still not the same. To be completely honest, there really isn't any IS Light mech in game, 20 tons or otherwise, that can carry the sheer amount of MG Dakka the Fire Ant carries.

A large part of why I want the Piranha

[Requiemking]

Wence the Wanderer, on 02 August 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

A large part of why I want the Piranha

There is a difference between an excellent amount of Dakka, and an excessive amount of Dakka. Fire Ant is an Excellent amount, as 6 LMGs on an IS Light will have plenty of room for ammo without any major sacrifices. 12 MG, even on a Clan 20 tonner, is excessive to the point where you have to compromise to get enough ammo. Since 20 tonners in general have to be able to move at least 150 KPH if they want any hope of survival, you really can't afford to drop any engine from the Piranha. You can't drop any armor because it only has 4 tons of armor to begin with(thats the same as a stock LCT-1V), and the only weapons you can drop are a pair of Medium lasers and a Small laser, which is nowhere near enough room.

[FupDup]

Requiemking, on 02 August 2017 - 07:16 PM, said:

There is a difference between an excellent amount of Dakka, and an excessive amount of Dakka. Fire Ant is an Excellent amount, as 6 LMGs on an IS Light will have plenty of room for ammo without any major sacrifices. 12 MG, even on a Clan 20 tonner, is excessive to the point where you have to compromise to get enough ammo. Since 20 tonners in general have to be able to move at least 150 KPH if they want any hope of survival, you really can't afford to drop any engine from the Piranha. You can't drop any armor because it only has 4 tons of armor to begin with(thats the same as a stock LCT-1V), and the only weapons you can drop are a pair of Medium lasers and a Small laser, which is nowhere near enough room.

I suspect that ballistic Piranhas will end up wanting to stick to only 8-10 MGs for the sake of ammo management. I'd also stick to purely LMGs on that mech because of the better ammo per ton, and unlocking both Magazine Capacity nodes in the skill tree will be mandatory.

[CK16]

A wild Commission from Shimmy appears!

[Brain Cancer]

Odanan, on 02 August 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

If the Hollander is added, I hope it's the Hollander II, a 45 tonner (the same saw in MW:LL). It would be a mini-Hunchback, I know, but at least it could bring that Gauss without too many sacrifices.

The problem is: the Hollander II has only two variants (BZK-F5 and BZK-F7). I guess the other variants could be inspired by those in MW:LL?

Anyway, I don't see this mech as a priority for PGI... and if it comes, I'm sure it will find it's niche (hey, if even the Cougar is making some owners happy...).

You'd likely see the Hollander/Hollander II as a combined pack. And yes, they'd be generally hardpoint starved, but that can lead to Vindicator like quirkage. And we do get some rather nice single guns now like the UAC's for them to use such.

[Valdarion Silarius]

CK16, on 02 August 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

A wild Commission from Shimmy appears!

Now that is what an Executioner is supposed to look like. A big, blocky 95 ton towering war machine.

[Karl Streiger]

Brain Cancer, on 02 August 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

You'd likely see the Hollander/Hollander II as a combined pack. And yes, they'd be generally hardpoint starved, but that can lead to Vindicator like quirkage. And we do get some rather nice single guns now like the UAC's for them to use such.

You would need some heavy quirks really heavy - simple for the reason that a single heavy is burning mass - and this comes at the price of duration and speed (if you doesn't sacrifice armor)
With the pin point accurate game mechanic of MWO - a single heavy weapon sucks.... Doesn't matter if you are talking about a Light - Medium - Heavy or Assault. ... so the reason the Hollander will be bad without qurirks that turn is effective doubling his main gun (first quirking Grid Iron, Dragon, Wubverine) - in this case the Hollander might become acceptable - when you can field a "pocket Gauss Cat"
But when a 35t can do the same as a 65t at more speed were is the balance? (Sure its necessary for QP - but then tonnage is just a "annoyance" without game play effect in FP)

Interesting isn't it - when tonnage is a issue QP is unbalanced - if tonnage is not an issue FP is unbalanced.

[Ovion]

FLG 01, on 02 August 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

"Would"? You do know that you can do it? Right now.
Get a FS9-H and you can build a Hollander; you can literally build the very same Mech and see how well that goes.

Yup, did that.

Firestarter was also a possible alternate-urbie before the urbie, allowing you to do some of the builds that wouldn't fit on the Spider Urbs.

But, it's not got the legs, the look, or the high mounts.
It'd be a baby Jager / Roughneck, play wise it should effectively be like taking one of them and cutting it in half.
I'm good in the Jager, I'm good in light mechs, so I'd hope to be good in a Hollander.
(On the other hand it could be a baby hunchie, and I'm not good in Hunchbacks or mediums in general.... but it'd look cool at least~)

Karl Streiger, on 02 August 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:

d.

On a side note - I love the idea of displaying your badges in the signature, I might steal that!

Looks like IS up top, Clan at the bottom you have there?

[Odanan]

Brain Cancer, on 02 August 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

You'd likely see the Hollander/Hollander II as a combined pack. And yes, they'd be generally hardpoint starved, but that can lead to Vindicator like quirkage. And we do get some rather nice single guns now like the UAC's for them to use such.

Well, now that's an interesting idea. The Hollander being released with both 35 and 45 variants - I like it.

EDIT: here, let me help you PGI:

• Hollander Standard Pack: BZK-F3, BZK-G1 and BZK-P1 (PGI custom energy-only Hollander)
  
• Hollander Reinforcement Pack: BZK-F5 (Hollander II) and BZK-P2 (PGI custom energy-only Hollander II or something based on the ballistics+energy+MASC MW:LL's "Variant A")
  
• Hollander Hero: ?

Edited by Odanan, 03 August 2017 - 04:54 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Odanan, on 03 August 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

Well, now that's an interesting idea. The Hollander being released with both 35 and 45 variants - I like it.

... maybe the hollander II in its MWLL - spitting fire config would be a nice "reminder" at the "Holy ****" moment i had first when firing firing RAC and UAC2s ..... this was great look and feel.
only second to the moment when i sliped with that thing into the rear of a Blood Asp - that turned after an eternity of shooting hardly damaged and blasted my undamaged mech into oblivion with one volley..... heck MWLL had done many things right. Pitty that PGI did not learned some things from them (weapon hardpoints, electronic warfare as hallmarks)

however it would be not enough to let me spend a dime

Edited by Karl Streiger, 03 August 2017 - 04:26 AM.

[FLG 01]

Odanan, on 03 August 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

• Hollander Hero: ?

The two notable pilots of TRO:3055U are Bernard Mallins and Georgio Eicher. Mallins was with the ELH when they crushed the Jaguars on their own home world and disabled two enemy Omnis with lucky shots saving his lance. Eicher was with the 1st Chisholm’s Raiders during the FCCW and repeated walked on mines in the battle of New Valencia devastating his Mech, a Hollander II.

Eicher would probably be the better choice, since a Mech that suffered heavy damage may be rebuild to custom specs. Also, being an FCCW-era pilot he technically had access to the latest tech we have in game.

(Not that PGI cares about the lore when it comes to hero pilots and their Mechs. We got so many heroes badly violating the canon that another one hardly matters. But I would prefer a canon-friendly solution).

Ovion, on 03 August 2017 - 02:27 AM, said:

(On the other hand it could be a baby hunchie, and I'm not good in Hunchbacks or mediums in general.... but it'd look cool at least~)

Well, the Hollander is a humanoid 35 ton Mech and those are not small by any means in MWO thanks to volumetric scaling. Mounting a gauss rifle furthermore requires a rather small engine, resulting in a speed range typically found on medium and even some heavy Mechs (80-90 kph).

So yes, with a gauss it does play out like a medium, just without the firepower or the armor. Even a Locust outguns you at 270m. (Or, now that ERML are available, at 360m), and a Linebacker will not only outgun you, it is also faster. Your DPS is small, and your impact as a sniper negligible. Not to mention everybody loves that long range light Mech sniper in his team, right?

I am not talking about theory, I have done that with the Firestarter. And as the leaderboard results of the last seaons will show you, I am not uncomfortable or totally incompetent with light or medium Mechs at all.

Now the Hollander could get Annihilator-level quirks, especially buffing the gauss cooldown and armour, but even then it is just a bad idea. Again, there is a reason we don't mount a gauss rifle on a light Mech for more than a few joke matches: the joke gets old very, very fast. It's not the placement of the hardpoint or the quirks or the looks...

...it's the concept that does not work.

[Metus regem]

FLG 01, on 03 August 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

The two notable pilots of TRO:3055U are Bernard Mallins and Georgio Eicher. Mallins was with the ELH when they crushed the Jaguars on their own home world and disabled two enemy Omnis with lucky shots saving his lance. Eicher was with the 1st Chisholm’s Raiders during the FCCW and repeated walked on mines in the battle of New Valencia devastating his Mech, a Hollander II.

Eicher would probably be the better choice, since a Mech that suffered heavy damage may be rebuild to custom specs. Also, being an FCCW-era pilot he technically had access to the latest tech we have in game.

(Not that PGI cares about the lore when it comes to hero pilots and their Mechs. We got so many heroes badly violating the canon that another one hardly matters. But I would prefer a canon-friendly solution).



Well, the Hollander is a humanoid 35 ton Mech and those are not small by any means in MWO thanks to volumetric scaling. Mounting a gauss rifle furthermore requires a rather small engine, resulting in a speed range typically found on medium and even some heavy Mechs (80-90 kph).

So yes, with a gauss it does play out like a medium, just without the firepower or the armor. Even a Locust outguns you at 270m. (Or, now that ERML are available, at 360m), and a Linebacker will not only outgun you, it is also faster. Your DPS is small, and your impact as a sniper negligible. Not to mention everybody loves that long range light Mech sniper in his team, right?

I am not talking about theory, I have done that with the Firestarter. And as the leaderboard results of the last seaons will show you, I am not uncomfortable or totally incompetent with light or medium Mechs at all.

Now the Hollander could get Annihilator-level quirks, especially buffing the gauss cooldown and armour, but even then it is just a bad idea. Again, there is a reason we don't mount a gauss rifle on a light Mech for more than a few joke matches: the joke gets old very, very fast. It's not the placement of the hardpoint or the quirks or the looks...

...it's the concept that does not work.

Not to mention that if a mech's viability is quirk strength dependent, than there is something inherently wrong about that chassis' viability in MWO. As we've all seen that quirks are subject to change and can drastically effect the mechs play ability... just some examples:

ERPPCx3 spam Thunderbolts, that could spam ERPPC's better than a freaking Awesome....
UAC-Buzzsaw Dragons
Near instant burn Black Knights
SRM buzzaw Oxides