20517 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

FireSlade, on 05 May 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

4 ERPPCs and LRMs. It does not matter if it is as big as a barn, since the enemy will be dead before they can close and take advantage of its profile.

You're right...we're so blind.

Here, run this a while and tell us how OP it is.

[3rdworld]

Ghost Badger, on 12 May 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

You're right...we're so blind.

Here, run this a while and tell us how OP it is.

The masakari has 20 dhs. That isn't exactly a fair comparison.

[FupDup]

Ghost Badger, on 12 May 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

You're right...we're so blind.

Here, run this a while and tell us how OP it is.

3rdworld, on 12 May 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

The masakari has 20 dhs. That isn't exactly a fair comparison.

Actually, if you remove the Targeting Computer and figure out what the hell to do with the LRM10's tonnage, you can get up to 28-29 DHS.

[AlmightyAeng]

FupDup, on 12 May 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

Actually, if you remove the Targeting Computer and figure out what the hell to do with the LRM10's tonnage, you can get up to 28-29 DHS.

Ok fine...there...maybe this is slightly more fair...gimme a little credit...this Masakari-mini IS 20 tons light

[FireSlade]

Ghost Badger, on 12 May 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

Ok fine...there...maybe this is slightly more fair...gimme a little credit...this Masakari-mini IS 20 tons light

What you are forgetting is that we do not have Clan tech meaning your designs are running light in damage potential. CERPPCs are supposed to do 15 damage out to at least 810 meters, unless PGI decides to nerf them which they have been avoiding when it comes to damage. So if things go according to lore and PGI nerfs it another way that means that you can unload 60 damage with the CERPPCs (chained of course) and then follow up with the LRM10 while you cool off, which is a staggering amount of damage. Name a few designs that can hit that hard 800 meters out and still do 64 kph. Granted it will suck brawling unless you swap 2 ERPPCs for 2 LPLs.

[Jenkss]

Shar Wolf, on 12 May 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

It was at one point - apparently they can only sticky so many though, and this one fell off the list.

I know. I remember when it was stickied, deserves to be back. What forum can only sticky so many, look at others tdo more and remain functional. 400+ pages of good discussion need to stay visible I think.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Jenkss, on 12 May 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

What forum can only sticky so many

I don't know - but it was a comment MiSs made before (s)he left.

Edit: as for keeping it near the top - with 400+ pages, they probably (and with good reason, I would think) thought they wouldn't need to sticky it to keep it near the top!

Edited by Shar Wolf, 12 May 2014 - 01:53 PM.

[wanderer]

Odanan, on 09 May 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

Not to mention the Banshee, which would be a much better mech with 85 tons (same speed, more armor and firepower - and a lot less expensive)

It's notable that the Banshee was considered a failure until someone remodeled it with a tonnage-appropriate engine...thereby creating the Banshee-S, which actually is one of the most solid 3025-era assault designs.

[Nathan Foxbane]

wanderer, on 12 May 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

It's notable that the Banshee was considered a failure until someone remodeled it with a tonnage-appropriate engine...thereby creating the Banshee-S, which actually is one of the most solid 3025-era assault designs.

Also notable is the Banshee's production was only sustained more or less by both because the Lyrans love their assault 'Mechs and it made a good periphery garrison 'Mech. The latter because its speed and armor made it a rugged terror in such a low threat environment.

[ShadowbaneX]

More likely when FASA was originally putting all this crap together they thought that melee was a viable option and that there needed to be some decent speed, high tonnage mechs that were lightly armed and armoured that can get in to a fight, beat the crap out of another mech and then move on. Turns out that idea wasn't so great hence all the stuff in lore about those types of mechs, ie the Charger, the Banshee, etc. being unpopular until they were changed in to more traditional assault mechs...or Kuritianified in the case of the Charger/Hatamoto

[wanderer]

ShadowbaneX, on 12 May 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

More likely when FASA was originally putting all this crap together they thought that melee was a viable option and that there needed to be some decent speed, high tonnage mechs that were lightly armed and armoured that can get in to a fight, beat the crap out of another mech and then move on. Turns out that idea wasn't so great hence all the stuff in lore about those types of mechs, ie the Charger, the Banshee, etc. being unpopular until they were changed in to more traditional assault mechs...or Kuritianified in the case of the Charger/Hatamoto

Actually, a lot of the 3025-era (and in later TROs too) designs were deliberately flawed, rather than optimized. Some were even radically changed at the end- and in a few places so fast that vestigial parts of prior designs are evident in the final result, like the 11th heat sink on the Urbanmech it really, REALLY had no reason to mount. Battletech TRO's are littered with paving stones to Hell, neatly lined up for the road by companies with the best of intentions...

[ShadowbaneX]

wanderer, on 12 May 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Actually, a lot of the 3025-era (and in later TROs too) designs were deliberately flawed, rather than optimized. Some were even radically changed at the end- and in a few places so fast that vestigial parts of prior designs are evident in the final result, like the 11th heat sink on the Urbanmech it really, REALLY had no reason to mount. Battletech TRO's are littered with paving stones to Hell, neatly lined up for the road by companies with the best of intentions...

That's certainly true. Well, it's arguable if someone thought that hand-to-hand assaults were a viable tactic or if they were just off their rocker with a 'precious' build/type.

In a 3025 MW RPG that I play in, someone has an not-so-typical Enforcer in that it's weapon payload was stripped for a PPC, a Medium Laser, a pair of SRM6s, and nearly maxed armour. When first hearing of this, it just made so much sense I wondered why it wasn't a real variant somewhere. I know it makes good business sense not to have every thing be amazing, otherwise you have to go crazy to come up with better things for people to buy *cough*Mech Taser*cough*.

[Bishop Steiner]

wanderer, on 12 May 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Actually, a lot of the 3025-era (and in later TROs too) designs were deliberately flawed, rather than optimized. Some were even radically changed at the end- and in a few places so fast that vestigial parts of prior designs are evident in the final result, like the 11th heat sink on the Urbanmech it really, REALLY had no reason to mount. Battletech TRO's are littered with paving stones to Hell, neatly lined up for the road by companies with the best of intentions...

one of the things i like. Everyone thinks military gear is all optimized and crap, when in reality, most is built by contractors and committees, and have all sorts of half baked ideas. Heck just look at the Osprey's development history. The older FASA era of Btech seemed to get that, and on some there were just bad design ideas on otherwise good mechs, others, you could see where cost was an issue (2750 TRO, where shockingly nothing was minmaxxed, lol) or technology not yet fully understood, like the 3050 and 3055 TROs.

[wanderer]

Quote

That's certainly true. Well, it's arguable if someone thought that hand-to-hand assaults were a viable tactic or if they were just off their rocker with a 'precious' build/type.

The Banshee actually wasn't badly armed compared to many of it's primitive-tech relations of the era, but aged horribly quick - while it could reasonably keep up with some of the earliest Successor House designs like the original Ymir, as "standard" tech proliferated, it's effectiveness plummeted. The "melee assault" didn't really come into it's own until triple-strength myomer/'Mech-scale melee weapons proliferated (starting with the Hatchetman), with the Berserker being the literal TRO poster child for the concept.

And Bad Idea Mechs keep coming- heck, they recently did a tech readout called Boondoggles.

[Cimarb]

ShadowbaneX, on 12 May 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

More likely when FASA was originally putting all this crap together they thought that melee was a viable option and that there needed to be some decent speed, high tonnage mechs that were lightly armed and armoured that can get in to a fight, beat the crap out of another mech and then move on. Turns out that idea wasn't so great hence all the stuff in lore about those types of mechs, ie the Charger, the Banshee, etc. being unpopular until they were changed in to more traditional assault mechs...or Kuritianified in the case of the Charger/Hatamoto

I loved, LOVED making melee mechs in TT. DFA was a favorite of mine, and when they came out with the much-cooler-than-axe sword, every mech I could get it on had one (or two). I even made up my own melee weapons and all sorts of "what was I thinking" mech designs, as that was the coolest part of role-playing games as a kid. Just like pretty much everything from the 80s-90s, I look back at it and wonder what I was smoking, but that is also what makes that time period so awesome!

The whole down side of melee combat, though, was that no matter how good you were, every attack was damaging yourself as well as the target. That is why ranged combat is so much more effective. Delivering damage without taking any in return is how you succeed, and brawling/melee combat is the exact opposite if that, since you take damage from melee combat even if the enemy is incapacitated.

[wanderer]

Quote

The whole down side of melee combat, though, was that no matter how good you were, every attack was damaging yourself as well as the target. That is why ranged combat is so much more effective. Delivering damage without taking any in return is how you succeed, and brawling/melee combat is the exact opposite if that, since you take damage from melee combat even if the enemy is incapacitated.

This is incorrect. Charges and "death from above" attacks damaged both victim and attacker, but you could punch, kick, push, or club someone without causing yourself harm in Battletech.

[Cimarb]

wanderer, on 13 May 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

This is incorrect. Charges and "death from above" attacks damaged both victim and attacker, but you could punch, kick, push, or club someone without causing yourself harm in Battletech.

I can't verify that right now, as I'm at work, but you're probably right. The brawler/melee approach is still flawed, since you are opening yourself up to return fire by proximity to the enemy, but I stand corrected on the "damaging yourself when enemy is incapacitated" part.

[wanderer]

Quote

The brawler/melee approach is still flawed, since you are opening yourself up to return fire by proximity to the enemy

Amusingly enough, closing on many early designs (and plenty of later-era ones) actually severely degraded their ability to return fire- minimum ranges often making it harder to hit something up your nose vs. long distance shot. Combine that with the ability to often deliver a much more focused hit to a single location and the idea of planting your giant robot's foot squarely in some other giant robot's kneecap becomes rather appealing. Closing with, say a Fafnir actually meant it's armor-obliterating heavy gauss rifles were about as accurate in melee range as they were at long range- and anything with LRMs was even worse.

[Cimarb]

wanderer, on 13 May 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

Amusingly enough, closing on many early designs (and plenty of later-era ones) actually severely degraded their ability to return fire- minimum ranges often making it harder to hit something up your nose vs. long distance shot. Combine that with the ability to often deliver a much more focused hit to a single location and the idea of planting your giant robot's foot squarely in some other giant robot's kneecap becomes rather appealing. Closing with, say a Fafnir actually meant it's armor-obliterating heavy gauss rifles were about as accurate in melee range as they were at long range- and anything with LRMs was even worse.

It's not just the enemy you are in melee range with, though. This is a team game, and I absolutely love enemies that like to brawl with my team, as it allows me to rain LRMs on top of them the whole time. On top of that, we all know how difficult it is to close to melee range against a capable ranged team...

[FupDup]

More gold mechs, yippie...