LocationStomping around in a giant robot, of course.
Posted 06 June 2016 - 11:32 AM
Quote
It's some what sill that we can take a .50cal - 20mm MG and replace it with up-to a 203mm class 20 AC in the blink of an eye, for no cost and no down time provided you already own that big AC....
In TT terms, it's a class-C refit, doable in any maint bay (read: your dropship).
By comparison, replacing a normal internal structure with endosteel is a factory job (and in MWO costs you every time you swap). But why penalize players time in a game that rotates around quick play? If we had FW-only stables, that'd be a different animal entirely.
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 06 June 2016 - 01:17 PM
Bishop Steiner, on 06 June 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:
My WHM-6R has an AC10 in the right torso. ( looks guilty) backed by 4x Small Lasers and a pair of PPC in the arms....... ( but so did my TT Warhammer)
TT inspired builds get a pass. But Meta builds can eat a **** in the lowest level of hades.
wanderer, on 06 June 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:
In TT terms, it's a class-C refit, doable in any maint bay (read: your dropship).
By comparison, replacing a normal internal structure with endosteel is a factory job (and in MWO costs you every time you swap). But why penalize players time in a game that rotates around quick play? If we had FW-only stables, that'd be a different animal entirely.
Monetize it, same as the bulk of F2P games do. Don't want to wait, pay MC.
As for Class C refit, I always did "with in reason" for them. no way the mounts for a MG could support a class 20 AC, not to mention the internal layout of the structure of the mech wouldn't allow it to fit.... When ever someone would tell me "but the rules say I can!" I'd say back to them, open the hood of your car, do you think a 440 cubic inch engine will fit in your Honda Civic's engine bay?
LocationStomping around in a giant robot, of course.
Posted 06 June 2016 - 01:31 PM
That's why it's a Class-C, not a Class-A/B. A maint-bay mod job is like taking your car to a garage and doing things to it nature likely didn't intend, but you don't have to rebuild it from the ground up to work. Likewise, there's refits so radical that you're basically dismantling the entire 'Mech to do so.
Honestly, we should have a separate "mirror" garage for FW, where we can actually do things like repair and rearm/mod times, etc without utterly hosing quickplay.
....
This would also allow for better weapon sizing for the models, and eliminate the need for silliness like VCR LRM pods.
Hey, sounds solid I will take a closer look, and try to make it "future proof"
But you are right the main reason for weapon size limits are the 3D modells, my eyes hurt when I've seen the tripple gauss on the PHX - harpoint test mech. 3 Gauss Rifles should be as bulky as the whole Mech.
I know not even the lore was inconsequent (Huron Warrior vs Hollander) but I think it is not an exuse to repeat the same mistakes.
Hey, sounds solid I will take a closer look, and try to make it "future proof"
But you are right the main reason for weapon size limits are the 3D modells, my eyes hurt when I've seen the tripple gauss on the PHX - harpoint test mech. 3 Gauss Rifles should be as bulky as the whole Mech.
I know not even the lore was inconsequent (Huron Warrior vs Hollander) but I think it is not an exuse to repeat the same mistakes.
If it helps, the equation I've come up with the to streamline the entire thing is Roundup((Slots+Tons)/4,0)
This is simple and pretty robust so far.
I have been applying it to all tabletop equipment for the stuff I'm designing and printing to create a sensibly sized universal system there.
To explain:
Each weapon is applied a Mass Value (between 1 and 6)
This takes into account its weight and size.
Each location with a hard(points) gets a Mass Capacity based on the stock weapon.
The Mass Capacity (in Ballistic, Energy and Missile flavour) is how much size / weight / recoil etc that section of mech is designed to handle.
So a Machine Gun would be Ballistic Mass 1 and an AC20 would be Ballistic Mass 6.
Spoiler
Something like this overall:
Ballistic Weapons
Mass B1 - MACHINE GUN, C-MACHINE GUN
Mass B2 - AC/2, C-ULTRA AC/2, C-AC/2, C-LB2-X AC
Mass B3 - AC/5, C-ULTRA AC/5, C-AC/5, C-LB5-X AC
Mass B4 - ULTRA AC/5, C-ULTRA AC/10, C-AC/10, C-LB10-X AC
Mass B5 - LB 10-X AC, AC/10, C-GAUSS RIFLE, C-ULTRA AC/20
Mass B6 - GAUSS RIFLE, AC/20, C-AC/20, C-LB20-X AC
Energy Weapons
Mass E1 - SMALL LASER, FLAMER, MEDIUM LASER, SML PULSE LASER, MED PULSE LASER, C-ER SML LASER, C-FLAMER, C-ER MED LASER, C-SML PULSE LASER, C-MED PULSE LASER, TAG, C-TAG
Mass E2 - ER LARGE LASER, LARGE LASER, C-ER LRG LASER, C-ER PPC, C-LRG PULSE LASER
Mass E3 - LRG PULSE LASER, ER PPC, PPC
Each point of Mass Value reduces a point from Mass Capacity.
So the B6 of a stock AC20, could take:
1 GAUSS RIFLE / AC/20 or
1 LB 10-X AC / AC/10 +B1 (MACHINE GUN) or
1 ULTRA AC/5 +B2 (1 AC/2 or 2 MACHINE GUN) or
2 AC/5 or
3 AC/2 or
6 MACHINE GUN
And a C-LB20-X AC would be able to take:
1 C-AC/20 / C-LB20-X AC or
1 C-GAUSS RIFLE / C-ULTRA AC/20 +B1 (C-MACHINE GUN) or
1 C-ULTRA AC/10, C-AC/10, C-LB10-X AC +B2 (1 C-ULTRA AC/2, C-AC/2, C-LB2-X AC or 2 C-MACHINE GUN) or
2 C-ULTRA AC/5, C-AC/5, C-LB5-X AC or
3 C-ULTRA AC/2, C-AC/2, C-LB2-X AC or
6 C-MACHINE GUN
Using the classic D-DC as an example, this would have:
RA - E1
RT - B6
LT - M6
LA - E1
So you lose a little Large Ballistic and Large Missile, but gain a little Small Ballistic and Small Missile, but for the most part is pretty similar. (If you really wanted, you could bump it to B10, which would allow for 2LBX10 as it does now, but I don't know if it'd need it)
Then things like the 2ERLL Raven 3L becomes:
RA - E2
RT - E1, M2
LT - AMS1, ECM1
LA - M2
So it could take some more small missiles, but can't have more than 1 Large Laser.
Some things may suffer a little, like the Marauder MX90, becoming:
RA - E1
RT - B4, M2
LT - B4, M2
LA - E1
No more 5AC5 Marauders here unfortunately.
Now, you can include 'mass inflation' where you've had Hard point inflation, though what and how much? That would be PGI's issue.
This would also allow for better weapon sizing for the models, and eliminate the need for silliness like VCR LRM pods.
As it happens, this reminds me of the system that Dream Pod 9 used for Heavy Gear, where each vehicle (conventional armor, Gears, Striders, landships, etc) has a size rating (based on its mass), and each weapon has a minimum size requirement (based on mass, presumed relative length/width/height, recoil, and so on).
"Weapons in rifle form use the arm's Size Rating for Minimum Size determination. Each arm can handle up to one and a half (rounded down) its Size Rating in weapons. For example, a Rating 6 arm can bear a [Light Autocannon] and a [Light Grenade Launcher] (4 + 4 is lower than 1.5 x 6), but not two [Heavy Autocannons] (2 x 5 is higher than 1.5 x 6). Multiple arms can be used to carry oversized rifles."
"A good indicator of the number of weapons that can be carried by a vehicle is its Size Rating. While it is not a hard limit, if there are more weapon systems than Size points, the design is probably overarmed. Another suggested control method would be to say that a vehicle can carry one weapon of its own Size, then (Size - Min. Size)2 for lesser weaponry."
For reference, an average-sized Gear (e.g. a Hunter or a Cheetah) is a Size 6 vehicle, while a large Gear (e.g. a Kodiak) might be a Size 7 vehicle.
Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 07 June 2016 - 08:46 AM
Strum Wealh, on 07 June 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:
As it happens, this reminds me of the system that Dream Pod 9 used for Heavy Gear, where each vehicle (conventional armor, Gears, Striders, landships, etc) has a size rating (based on its mass), and each weapon has a minimum size requirement (based on mass, presumed relative length/width/height, recoil, and so on).
"Weapons in rifle form use the arm's Size Rating for Minimum Size determination. Each arm can handle up to one and a half (rounded down) its Size Rating in weapons. For example, a Rating 6 arm can bear a [Light Autocannon] and a [Light Grenade Launcher] (4 + 4 is lower than 1.5 x 6), but not two [Heavy Autocannons] (2 x 5 is higher than 1.5 x 6). Multiple arms can be used to carry oversized rifles."
"A good indicator of the number of weapons that can be carried by a vehicle is its Size Rating. While it is not a hard limit, if there are more weapon systems than Size points, the design is probably overarmed. Another suggested control method would be to say that a vehicle can carry one weapon of its own Size, then (Size - Min. Size)2 for lesser weaponry."
For reference, an average-sized Gear (e.g. a Hunter or a Cheetah) is a Size 6 vehicle, while a large Gear (e.g. a Kodiak) might be a Size 7 vehicle.
I haven't been able to log in in a while (it stopped starting on my current (admittedly, only moderately above "potato") computer, and I haven't had the opportunity to fuss with it), but I know that they had a gameplay stream session a few days ago with the devs & some players(?), and it certainly looks good.
I haven't even taken my new HOTAS set (CH Fighterstick + CH Throttle) out of the boxes, much less hooked them up to my computer. So, I haven't had the opportunity to play much MWO recently, either.
That license has to be floating around out there somewhere. Maybe whomever owns Sierra's old IPs?
What we really need is a mecha version of M.U.G.E.N. or Fighter Maker - BattleMechs vs HERCs vs Gears vs Mobile Suits vs Armored Troopers vs Veritechs & Destroids vs Labors vs Tactical Armors vs...!
(Yes, I already know that Super Robot Wars is a thing. However, what I'm proposing would be aimed more at the so-called "real robot" genre rather than the so-called "super robot" genre. )
What we really need is a mecha version of M.U.G.E.N. or Fighter Maker - BattleMechs vs HERCs vs Gears vs Mobile Suits vs Armored Troopers vs Veritechs & Destroids vs Labors vs Tactical Armors vs...!
(Yes, I already know that Super Robot Wars is a thing. However, what I'm proposing would be aimed more at the so-called "real robot" genre rather than the so-called "super robot" genre. )
Slap in some Armored Core with a dab of Chrome Hounds & that's everything.
Soooo here we sit first Wednesday of the month and nothing on if we get a new mech or not.....Atleast tell us no new mech this month instead of sit quite about it seriously.....the waiting for possibly nothing is.more frustrating then just not getting one, but knowing so.....
Slap in some Armored Core with a dab of Chrome Hounds & that's everything.
HOUNDs would definitely fit.
With ACs, I feel like it could depend on the "generation" employed - the 4th gen ACs (from AC4 & For Answer) are (IMO) straddling the line in execution between more classical "real robots" and "super robots" (and would easily - too easily, IMO - mop the floor with most of the previously-named examples), the 2nd gen (AC2 & Another Age) and 3rd gen (AC3 through Last Raven) ACs were more toward the "real robot" side, and the 5th gen (ACV & Verdict Day) ACs were even more "real robot".
The Vertical Tanks from Steel Battalion could also be included.
My original list was not meant to be considered exhaustive.
As it happens, this reminds me of the system that Dream Pod 9 used for Heavy Gear, where each vehicle (conventional armor, Gears, Striders, landships, etc) has a size rating (based on its mass), and each weapon has a minimum size requirement (based on mass, presumed relative length/width/height, recoil, and so on).
"Weapons in rifle form use the arm's Size Rating for Minimum Size determination. Each arm can handle up to one and a half (rounded down) its Size Rating in weapons. For example, a Rating 6 arm can bear a [Light Autocannon] and a [Light Grenade Launcher] (4 + 4 is lower than 1.5 x 6), but not two [Heavy Autocannons] (2 x 5 is higher than 1.5 x 6). Multiple arms can be used to carry oversized rifles."
"A good indicator of the number of weapons that can be carried by a vehicle is its Size Rating. While it is not a hard limit, if there are more weapon systems than Size points, the design is probably overarmed. Another suggested control method would be to say that a vehicle can carry one weapon of its own Size, then (Size - Min. Size)2 for lesser weaponry."
For reference, an average-sized Gear (e.g. a Hunter or a Cheetah) is a Size 6 vehicle, while a large Gear (e.g. a Kodiak) might be a Size 7 vehicle.
Ovion, on 07 June 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:
I've currently got all IS done:
Spoiler
And I'm working on Clan atm.
OK I considered to use Ovions system and try to squeeze it into a DP9 style MechLab
first: in MWO size matters
heavier Mech = bigger Mech = bigger/more weapons
maximum size brain storming:
piranha 20t 12 MG 2 ERMedium Laser, 1 ER Small Laser XL engine
12 * 1?
2 * 1?
1 * 1?
= 15?
Baboon 3 20t C ERPPC
size 2?
Thorn 20t arm mounted ERPPC + Small Laser
size 3?
size 1
OK this seems to be pointless even when just running loadouts for just 20t Mechs. So the size of weapons available has to calculated by hand.
Considering a huge RA for the Thorn and a single Class 3 - alternative would be to use the missile rack size effect for the weapon and reduce its "size" but causing 2 shots.
OK I considered to use Ovions system and try to squeeze it into a DP9 style MechLab
first: in MWO size matters
heavier Mech = bigger Mech = bigger/more weapons
maximum size brain storming:
piranha 20t 12 MG 2 ERMedium Laser, 1 ER Small Laser XL engine
12 * 1?
2 * 1?
1 * 1?
= 15?
Baboon 3 20t C ERPPC
size 2?
Thorn 20t arm mounted ERPPC + Small Laser
size 3?
size 1
OK this seems to be pointless even when just running loadouts for just 20t Mechs. So the size of weapons available has to calculated by hand.
Considering a huge RA for the Thorn and a single Class 3 - alternative would be to use the missile rack size effect for the weapon and reduce its "size" but causing 2 shots.
Well, the Mammoth Strider from HG is essentially a Light BattleMech - it stands 6.8 meters tall and weighs 21,880 kg (21.9 tons).
It is a Size 9 vehicle (17-22 tons) in DP9's system
A derivative design, the Damocles, stands 8.5 meters tall and weighs 23,450 kg (23.5 tons).
It is a Size 10 vehicle (23-30 tons) in DP9's system.
The Thunderhammer Strider is essentially a Medium Quad 'Mech - it stands 8.5 meters tall and weighs 43,760 kg (43.8 tons).
It is a Size 12 vehicle (41-52 tons) in DP9's system.
The Atlas, King Crab, and Daishi, at 100 tons each, would be Size 15 vehicles (82-100 tons) in DP9's system.
"So what is preventing engineers from mounting twelve heavy autocannons on a single Gear? Nothing, except basic common sense. After all, the Gear would need a huge engine to move it (possible, but very costly) and the autocannons would have to be special recoilless ultra-light models (which means higher costs - if the technology is available at all). Anyway, the pilot could use no more than one or two autocannons, unless he is willing to take a -12 penalty to all his actions, or link them all and take his chance on missing with half of them. And just watch that Offensive Threat Value skyrocket... Remember, nothing in life is free. Not even payload."
- Heavy Gear Technical Manual, pg. 69
BT basically tried a similar thing with the refit system, where a "Class A" refit restricted weapon changes by both weapon type (energy, ballistic, missile) and weapon size (based on crit spaces).
111
. 
