330 replies to this topic

[Nick86]

R Razor, on 02 January 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

The standard IS LL isn't getting buffed to a range of 900 or so as the other guy stated, the ERLL is..........so invalid point on your part.

(He says and then fails to concede that the ER version is 1 heat more... and then talks about Mystere using passive-aggressive ignorance! Ha! )

[ApolloKaras]

You know what after every IS vs Clan win I'm going to post a screen shot. Names hidden of course.

[Nick86]

pwnface, on 02 January 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

I don't disagree that clan mechs optimal builds tend to generate more heat, but "heat management" as a skill and/or mechanic is exactly the same between IS and clan mechs. It isn't any harder to read the heat meter on a clan mech compared to an IS mech. You can easily build a high alpha / high heat mech with inner sphere tech, but most people opt for a more balanced approach.

True..

[pwnface]

R Razor, on 02 January 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

DPS? Range Module for the Clanner?

And yeah, it is much easier for the defender to focus fire than it is the attacker given that the attacker is (rightfully so) more concerned about getting to a fixed point to eliminate a single objective.

How quickly can the CERML fire compared to the ISERLL......and since you want to use Ghost Heat limitations, that's 2 IS ERLL not 3 or 4 so reduce your numbers by 9..........it's now 18 VS 10 damage...........so again, cooldown time for the IS ERLL vs the CERML becomes another factor.

Why don't you do some of your own math rather than asking me to do it all for you?

My previous calculations already included range modules for the C-ERML.

What clan build actually boats more than 6x C-ERML besides the Nova which is largely considered sub-optimal?

If you are really considering 6x C-ERML for sniping against even 2x ERLL you are a fool.
6x C-ERML generates 36 heat for 10.5 damage.
2x ERLL generates 16 heat for 18 damage WITHOUT quirks.
3x ERLL generates 28 heat for 27 damage WITHOUT quirks.
The builds I listed earlier in this thread have 10/15% heat gen and would easily outpace C-ERML.

"it is much easier for the defender to focus fire than it is the attacker given that the attacker is (rightfully so) more concerned about getting to a fixed point to eliminate a single objective."

This is only true if you are pushing into the enemy line which is exactly what I am telling people not to do because Inner Sphere has excellent long range options. You don't need to charge straight in and focus on objectives in the beginning of the match, you have 30 minutes to get things done and can easily spend 10-15 minutes killing clan mechs with ranged weapons.

I don't really understand what you are trying to argue here. Is your point really that C-ERML are better for sniping than quirked IS ERLL? I don't think you can win this one.

Edited by pwnface, 02 January 2015 - 10:33 AM.

[R Razor]

Nick86, on 02 January 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

(He says and then fails to concede that the ER version is 1 heat more... and then talks about Mystere using passive-aggressive ignorance! Ha! )

Didn't figure you'd have a coherent or valid response but thanks for confirming.

Either way, fact remains.........using your metrics (Ghost heat etc....) the crow will out DPS the IS ERLL equipped mech across the engagement spectrum.

[Rebas Kradd]

RG Notch, on 30 December 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

I would say having a reputation so bad that your attempt to crowd fund a non hostage IP crashes and burns would be the worst thing and Russ would know a thing or two about that.

Now you've stepped over the line into utter hypocrisy. People like you crashed and burned Transverse. And they did it on false pretenses and a total misunderstanding of the game's development story.

In short, they were right for the entirely wrong reasons, and they were typical internet ****s about it in the process. So nobody is in the right here.

[R Razor]

pwnface, on 02 January 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Why don't you do some of your own math rather than asking me to do it all for you?

My previous calculations already included range modules for the C-ERML.

What clan build actually boats more than 6x C-ERML besides the Nova which is largely considered sub-optimal?

If you are really considering 6x C-ERML for sniping against even 2x ERLL you are a fool.
6x C-ERML generates 36 heat for 10.5 damage.
2x ERLL generates 16 heat for 18 damage WITHOUT quirks. The builds I listed earlier in this thread have 10/15% heat gen and would easily outpace C-ERML.

"it is much easier for the defender to focus fire than it is the attacker given that the attacker is (rightfully so) more concerned about getting to a fixed point to eliminate a single objective."

This is only true if you are pushing into the enemy line which is exactly what I am telling people not to do because Inner Sphere has excellent long range options. You don't need to charge straight in and focus on objectives in the beginning of the match, you have 30 minutes to get things done and can easily spend 10-15 minutes killing clan mechs with ranged weapons.

Yes, you can, using fire support mechs like the 9S Thud for example..........none of which changes what I said above however.

As for why I don't do my own math, I'm not the one arguing that Clan Tech is suddenly inferior to IS tech so why should I waste my time?

[Nick86]

Saxie, on 02 January 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

You know what after every IS vs Clan win I'm going to post a screen shot. Names hidden of course.

For some reason I can't post mine which is annoying as hell but I will try to fix and do the same. Be warned though, I managed to p*ss off half my unit by uploading ga* p0rn on our TS because I thought it was funny (bruno pigmy scene with the fire extinguisher... hilarious!)

R Razor, on 02 January 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

Didn't figure you'd have a coherent or valid response but thanks for confirming.

Either way, fact remains.........using your metrics (Ghost heat etc....) the crow will out DPS the IS ERLL equipped mech across the engagement spectrum.

My sense of humour is more OP than yours! Ha!

[Revis Volek]

Khobai, on 01 January 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

I personally think the CERML is responsible for a lot of the imbalance. You see every clan mech using them and for good reason.

Its 7 damage for 1 friggin ton. No other weapon in the game comes close to giving you that kindve damage vs tonnage conversion.

I would like to see CERML reduced from 7 damage and 6 heat to 6 damage and 5 heat.

The IS ML come pretty close....its 6 dmg.

You said nothing come close....you are truly wrong sir.

So we have one more DMG on our lasers...IS HAS PPFLD AC's!?! and NO SPLASH ERPPC's?!?!

GTFO with this BS.

[pwnface]

R Razor, on 02 January 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

Yes, you can, using fire support mechs like the 9S Thud for example..........none of which changes what I said above however.

I have no idea what this is in regards to.

My argument has never been that Inner Sphere tech is superior to Clan tech. I've simply been stating that IS mechs can at least match Clan tech in the long range department.

R Razor, on 02 January 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

Either way, fact remains.........using your metrics (Ghost heat etc....) the crow will out DPS the IS ERLL equipped mech across the engagement spectrum.

The Crow will out DPS the IS ERLL equipped mech inside the Crow's engagement spectrum.

The whole point is that you can move outside their optimal spectrum and win trades. The IS ERLL equipped mech has a much larger spectrum of engagement.

Just admit you are wrong, C-ERML are not effective sniper weapons.

Edited by pwnface, 02 January 2015 - 10:45 AM.

[Mystere]

R Razor, on 02 January 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Nothing adhominen about that at all amigo, just stating a fact..........you have a vested interest in maintaining what you perceive to be your advantages in your Clan mechs.......you have also crowed in other threads about how you waited for Clans to be released as those are what you wanted to play. I'm sorry if stating what appears to a reasonable person to be a fact offends you in some way but that's just how it is.

Yes, I crowed about the Clan release because I want to play them --- for their looks and nostalgia. I have Armorcast figures received as gifts and proudly display one of them on my office desk. And by the way, I never played TT at all, just the Mechwarrior games.

But, that is a totally separate matter from wanting to keep their advantages.

So learn to get your so-called "facts" straight. You are coming up really short.

[RG Notch]

Rebas Kradd, on 02 January 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Now you've stepped over the line into utter hypocrisy. People like you crashed and burned Transverse. And they did it on false pretenses and a total misunderstanding of the game's development story.

In short, they were right for the entirely wrong reasons, and they were typical internet ****s about it in the process. So nobody is in the right here.

LOl, yeah it was me and people like me who managed to derail their crowd funding. Do you know how lame that sounds? Obviously, there were either a huge number of "people like me" in order to make their non hostage IP fund raising crash so epically, or more likely there were lots of people who watched this company's utter bumbling while handling a hostage IP with a built in captive audience and knew how their non hostage IP would work out.
You can spin it that some small segment of people is ruining PGI reputation and I will point out you are correct, they all work at PGI.

[Mystere]

Saxie, on 02 January 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

You know what after every IS vs Clan win I'm going to post a screen shot. Names hidden of course.

But why not also IS vs. Clan loss? It's in the interest of being "fair" and "balanced" to do so.






< Sorry. I just couldn't resist. And I needed a little laugh to distract myself from this nasty migraine that just started.>

[Nick86]

R Razor, on 02 January 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

I pulled the quote DIRECTLY out of your post.............and not even on average are &quot;most&quot; IS mechs (again, aside from the light mech class) faster than their clan counterparts. Wrong is wrong whether you like it or not.

You running around in an XL equipped Atlas does not prove anything and is irrelevant to this conversation.

Dude, you pulled two titbits out and left everything in between! If that's the rules for DIRECT quoting you could legitimately quote me as having said anything..

My Atlas engine example shows how customisable IS mechs are for better or worse. Kind of a key point in this debate..

Anyhow, CW ain't easy mode. Pugging can be near impossible, teamwork is key and when good meets good you can have whole stomps decided by the finest margins. It's not perfect, it's beta. I've seen plenty of IS guys thrash clans because they understand the game and vice versa. We're moving in the right direction after 2 yrs.. going back to the nerf merry go round ain't the way forward. If we did 10 v 12 then clans would need a re-buff which would break the general game queues. Be careful what you wish for.

[Nick86]

Mystere, on 02 January 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

But why not also IS vs. Clan loss? It's in the interest of being &quot;fair&quot; and &quot;balanced&quot; to do so.






&lt; Sorry. I just couldn't resist. And I needed a little laugh to distract myself from this nasty migraine that just started.&gt;

But what if IS don't lose?! That's how I intend to do it anyway.. though FRR space is a bit odd in terms of the teams it throws up..

[Nansar]

pwnface, on 02 January 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

There is no reason you can't have an equal number of IS mechs focusing fire compared to clan mechs. The fact that many PUG Inner Sphere pilots don't run optimized builds is a coordination problem and NOT a problem with balance in technology between IS and Clans.

Well you seem to be under the impression that you can control whether you attack or defend, and make mech selections intelligently, maybe 12 man premade drops get luckier, But even on defend as a pug it seems I get stuck on counter attack more often than not, on a defend mission.

Even when attacking clan mechs generally can afford to brawl and still win. Its just not the case with the IS. Its horribly unbalanced. The clan side wins more often than not. I am pretty sure no one will dispute that, If the people playing clan side actually think its fair, break your contract and try some IS fun.

Now that the stocking stuffers are gone. The clanners will just have to sit there twiddling their thumbs most likely. People just aren't going to join up for more IS abuse. A lot of people seem almost fanatical in defending the clan advantage it just makes no sense.

[pwnface]

Nansar, on 02 January 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

Well you seem to be under the impression that you can control whether you attack or defend, and make mech selections intelligently, maybe 12 man premade drops get luckier, But even on defend as a pug it seems I get stuck on counter attack more often than not, on a defend mission.

Even when attacking clan mechs generally can afford to brawl and still win. Its just not the case with the IS. Its horribly unbalanced. The clan side wins more often than not. I am pretty sure no one will dispute that, If the people playing clan side actually think its fair, break your contract and try some IS fun.

Now that the stocking stuffers are gone. The clanners will just have to sit there twiddling their thumbs most likely. People just aren't going to join up for more IS abuse. A lot of people seem almost fanatical in defending the clan advantage it just makes no sense.

It doesn't really matter if you are attacking or defending. In fact attackers are able to dictate the range of engagement more than defenders can. Attackers can snipe at defenders also! Generally, you should probably bring at least 1 sniper mech whether you are attacking or defending.

Edited by pwnface, 02 January 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[Revis Volek]

R Razor, on 02 January 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

I pulled the quote DIRECTLY out of your post.............and not even on average are "most" IS mechs (again, aside from the light mech class) faster than their clan counterparts. Wrong is wrong whether you like it or not.

You running around in an XL equipped Atlas does not prove anything and is irrelevant to this conversation.

Actually i dont have many (if any at all) IS lights or Mediums that run under the speed of Clan Heavies. All Is lights run at tremendous speeds (130-170's kph) and all my mediums run at 89 or more (to stick with clan mechs on PUG drops and with my team in groups) most are around the 95kph mark.

There are 3 Clan mechs that go faster then that...The summoner is close with its new speed boost.

So wrong to you is right to someone else....But to try and blanket statement this either way is way off base. They are what people build them too but you CAN get 50% of the IS force running faster then clan mechs would have been a better way to phrase it.

[Gorgo7]

Less interested in boycotting and more interested in killing DavRats.
...so, boycott the clans and crush the DavRats!

For a vermin free game CDR! (crush davrats)

[MischiefSC]

On the Clan vs IS weapons thing -

Why are we comparing 6 tons of weapons vs 15 - 20 tons?

Stormcrow can carry 2 ERLLs and 4 CERMLs to have better heat at range for about the same damage as an 3xERLL IS ERLL boat *plus* have 28 points of lasers for ranges under 600m, when they close in. All for less tonnage and with more DHS, meaning it can do it and run cooler.

How about this - take any 50 ton IS mech of your choice. Energy boat it however you want, whatever quirks and modules you want.

Then make a Stormcrow that's better. Same damage (or more) at whatever range (or better) with better heat management. Oh, and it functionally takes damage like it has a STD engine.

There is no IS mech in or even near the same tonnage that can compete.

Now do the same thing with heavies. Same pilot skill, just mech performance, just try to make an IS heavy that out-performs a Timber Wolf.

You can't. Nobody ever has. That's the whole point of this. The Stormcrow and TW are the best medium and heavy mechs respectively in the game, bar none. That's why most the really competitive teams went with them. Mech for mech they are the best straight up killing mechs in the game. Because they always travel the same speed they are even better in groups; mixed TW and Stormcrow runs are effective in part because of that.

Now, you can stack up 48 lights in a 12man dropdeck and win by swarming because hitreg issues make light mechs way more tanky than their tonnage should allow. The TDR 9S has flat out silly ERPPC quirks that will probably get fixed.

Otherwise though Clanners also have a heavy mech with ECM and solid weapon hardpoints. They have 3 mechs that are for one reason or another best in class. Their laser weapons (which those mechs boat effectively) are also way far into best in class.

All of this compiles nicely with the hugely OP Clan XL benefit - where they get the weight savings of an XL with the survivability of an STD. No, you can't zombie in them - which is a problem for people who wanted a single LL zombie TW or single MG TW or single flamer Adder. Not really that big a 'loss'.

Clan mechs probably need CERMLs toned back in damage and range (again). They need a significant nerf for losing a single side torso. Like 50% of total mech heatsinks.

I wouldn't say that Clan mechs are wildly OP - no more so than broken hitreg/overly tiny hitboxes are on Spiders or the ERPPC quirks on the 9S. TW, Stormcrow though bring the inherent imbalances in CERMLs and Clan XLs into focus. Fix those two things and you've got the Clans largely in balance with IS mechs. Then you can quirk up Summoners, Adders, Kit Foxes, Warhawks, even Dires, Gargoyles, etc.