330 replies to this topic

[Demuder]

I don't like the term "whiner" but you guys took this over the top.

The TBR is not overpowered, it was overpowered back when the CTF-3D and the Victor op as well, and it was arguably only marginally better. That situation was fixed and those mechs are hardly op now, how come the TBR has dodged the changes ?

The SCR is a pretty damn good medium. Anything with an IS AC/20 shreds it to pieces. The only op feature it has is the weird low hanging CT and wiry STs, which help spread damage, much like every other IS mech out there. Due to it's speed, it's an excellent backstabber. Face it head on and it melts in an overheating inferno of its own.

Apparently in your flat vaccum out there, where there's no terrain to navigate and block the extra 50 meters (that's 50 yards, in case the metric system makes you think it's 150 or 500 yards) and the environment temperature is near 0 Kelvin, yes, in that flat vacuum maybe "clans weapons are outright better than IS weapons". In the real, terrain infested, variable temperature, PPFLD, shorter-beam-duration-is-better world we play in, IS weapons are on par if not better.

Also apparently, in that flat vacuum of yours everyone drops in a TBR or an SCR. In the real drops I've been in since day 1 in CW, is see plenty of KFXs, ADRs, WHKs, DRW, etc etc in every drop/wave. We usually drop against waves of TDRs and FS9s though, just saying.

Finally, please, please post those ultra overpowered TBR and SCR builds so I can steamroll any decently outfitted and piloted IS mech in my way, at any range, over any terrain. I've been trying for months now and still can't come up with them.

Edited by Demuder, 05 January 2015 - 08:06 AM.

[Vandul]

The game is balanced against Public Mixed Tech drops. You will never be able to balance it for CW.

Boost Clan Mechs but restrict them to stars?

The non-CW and new players will turn the worlds red with their blood.

Keep the current balance restrictions but limit the clanners to 10 mechs in CW? Man, you think theres a bunch of Thunderbolts now...

[Demuder]

Khobai, on 04 January 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

I like how you completely ignored how clan weapons have upto 50% more range. The CERML has 50% more range than the ISML. So of course clan weapons have higher heat per damage; that extra range has to get paid for by extra heat.

But still if you do a side by side comparison...

ISML = 5 damage, 4 heat, 270m range, 0.9s duration, 3.0 cooldown.

CERML = 7 damage, 6 heat, 405m range, 1.15s duration, 3.0 cooldown


Its pretty obvious the CERML is not only better, but absurdly better. The CERML is definitely the #1 problem with clan weapon balance.Virtually every clan meta build spams CERMLs for a reason. If you want to nerf clans thats the place to start.

CERML does 40% (better) more damage for 50% (worse) more heat at 50% (better) more range, while needing 25% (worse) more facetime / hitscan time. Looks pretty balanced to me. Unless of course you believe that heat generation and facetime / hitscan duration are not important - especially on a weapon that must be boated in order to make a dent. Without quirks - wherever those might apply.

Don't forget, we are talking about Clan EXTENDED RANGE medium laser vs NORMAL RANGE IS medium laser - practically they are not even the same/equivalent weapon.

But please, go on and make the above comparison for all Clan vs IS weapons, why restrict yourself to Medium Lasers ? I dare you. Suddenly, you will find out that almost every Clan weapon is equal or even subpar to IS weapons.

Edited by Demuder, 05 January 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Looks pretty balanced to me.

Except for the fact you can fire off 2-3 alphas before overheating, which makes heat way less meaningful than damage or range. The high heat capacity we have allows you to output way too much damage before any consequences kick in.

The problem is that the heat system doesnt punish you until youve already done the majority of your damage, and at that point the consequences dont matter, since youve either killed whatever mech youre fighting by then or youve retreated back into cover to cool off.

Thats why we need gradual heat penalties like battletech has.

Quote

Don't forget, we are talking about Clan EXTENDED RANGE medium laser vs NORMAL RANGE IS medium laser - practically they are not even the same/equivalent weapon.

They are the same weapon equivalent though. Both are 1 ton, 1 crit laser weapons.

Besides the IS ERML would look even worse in the comparison... If you applied the same +1 heat that the ISML got, then the ISERML would be 5 damage for 6 heat with 360m range. Which is worse than both the ISML and CERML.

Edited by Khobai, 05 January 2015 - 12:06 PM.

[Apnu]

Cerberias, on 04 January 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

I like how you ignore both hardpoint locations and quirks. For example the clan ERPPC might school the IS ERPPC on paper, but when it's fired from a tbolt9s for ~5.5 heat per shot, from high mounted hardpoint locations, it absolutely destroys the clan equivalent.

Tbolt 9ss, erlarges can get 911m range, out of high hardpoints, for 6.8 heat per shot, schooling its clan equivalent.

Stalker 4n, largelas with 28% reduced cooldown, 588m range, ~5.1 heat per shot, coming out of super high mounted hardpoints with amazing durability - producing much higher sustained fire than the clan equivalent for slightly lower range (although you can mount erlarge on the same chassis and do very well also).

Raven 3L, might not get the best quirks, but it's profile is virtually unhittable if played well (although 99% of people are terrible in it, as with all other mechs).

Once again, only a bad player thinks the clan are OP.

Edit: I'd love for ghost heat to be removed, it'd mean my 6 largelas stalker would be incredible again, 54 pt alphas for ~31 heat at ~600m range all day.

Except the clans will be getting quirks too. So all that about IS quirks evening the playing field is going away at some point. Will that balance things or not? Only time will tell.

Clans are fairly level with IS right now. I'm a old gray beard TT player and I think that's wrong. Clans should have superior tech, but there should be less of them in the field by way of 10v12 and a bidding system to under weight them to make things even. But that's not going to happen here. So we get quirks, burst ACs, trickle LRMs, long burn lasers, spread damage PPCs and all that stuff.

Since this is also the Internet, we get general complaining about everything too. Both clan and IS players are equally guilty in the whine fest and pity parties in MWO. Its become pretty comical.

Khobai, on 05 January 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Quote

Don't forget, we are talking about Clan EXTENDED RANGE medium laser vs NORMAL RANGE IS medium laser - practically they are not even the same/equivalent weapon.

They are the same weapon equivalent though. Both are 1 ton, 1 crit laser weapons.

Besides the IS ERML would look even worse in the comparison... If you applied the same +1 heat that the ISML got, then the ISERML would be 5 damage for 6 heat with 360m range. Which is worse than both the ISML and CERML.

Also, the clans don't have "normal lasers" They are all either extended range or pulse. Its the IS, after the clan invasion that gets "normal", "er" and "pulse" weapons.

Edited by Apnu, 05 January 2015 - 01:10 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

IIRC the IS had ER lasers before the Clan invasion.

[Lily from animove]

Demuder, on 05 January 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

I don't like the term "whiner" but you guys took this over the top.

The TBR is not overpowered, it was overpowered back when the CTF-3D and the Victor op as well, and it was arguably only marginally better. That situation was fixed and those mechs are hardly op now, how come the TBR has dodged the changes ?

The SCR is a pretty damn good medium. Anything with an IS AC/20 shreds it to pieces. The only op feature it has is the weird low hanging CT and wiry STs, which help spread damage, much like every other IS mech out there. Due to it's speed, it's an excellent backstabber. Face it head on and it melts in an overheating inferno of its own.

Apparently in your flat vaccum out there, where there's no terrain to navigate and block the extra 50 meters (that's 50 yards, in case the metric system makes you think it's 150 or 500 yards) and the environment temperature is near 0 Kelvin, yes, in that flat vacuum maybe "clans weapons are outright better than IS weapons". In the real, terrain infested, variable temperature, PPFLD, shorter-beam-duration-is-better world we play in, IS weapons are on par if not better.

Also apparently, in that flat vacuum of yours everyone drops in a TBR or an SCR. In the real drops I've been in since day 1 in CW, is see plenty of KFXs, ADRs, WHKs, DRW, etc etc in every drop/wave. We usually drop against waves of TDRs and FS9s though, just saying.

Finally, please, please post those ultra overpowered TBR and SCR builds so I can steamroll any decently outfitted and piloted IS mech in my way, at any range, over any terrain. I've been trying for months now and still can't come up with them.

doesn't changes the fact that the TBR and the SCR are an imbalanced pice of annoyance, they make so many other clanners obsolete, that you hardly see them on the field, and this is wrong. There is no reason EVER to use a Summoner, Gargoyle or MDD over a TBR, there is non to use a NVA over SCR, and many other clanners are just bad. Those mechs are OP, not unbeatable, but they obsolete other choices and thats unhealthiy for a games diversity and is making the gaming experience extremely dull and boring. But if you wanna improve your gaming experience by takign the other mechs you gimp yourself and get just the bad gamign experience because someone decided to quirk IS mechs to the TBR and SCR levels.

Khobai, on 05 January 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Except for the fact you can fire off 2-3 alphas before overheating, which makes heat way less meaningful than damage or range. The high heat capacity we have allows you to output way too much damage before any consequences kick in.

The problem is that the heat system doesnt punish you until youve already done the majority of your damage, and at that point the consequences dont matter, since youve either killed whatever mech youre fighting by then or youve retreated back into cover to cool off.

Thats why we need gradual heat penalties like battletech has.



They are the same weapon equivalent though. Both are 1 ton, 1 crit laser weapons.

Besides the IS ERML would look even worse in the comparison... If you applied the same +1 heat that the ISML got, then the ISERML would be 5 damage for 6 heat with 360m range. Which is worse than both the ISML and CERML.

no they ar not, erlasers trade heat efficiency or range a standard laser at 100% damage range is better than a ERlaser variant, because more ehat efficient. Damn seriously, you guys need to lern and understand what heat efficiency is, heat is not an infinite ressource, and clanlasers are very inefficient in heat. Pulselasers are curently the best heatefficient lasers yet they trade tonnage for this.

Jaroth Corbett, on 05 January 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

IIRC the IS had ER lasers before the Clan invasion.

according to sarna, er Mlas for IS are 3058

Edited by Lily from animove, 05 January 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

no they ar not, erlasers trade heat efficiency or range a standard laser at 100% damage range is better than a ERlaser variant, because more ehat efficient.

IS ML = 1.25 damage per heat

Clan ERML = 1.17 damage per heat

So the IS ML is less than 10% more efficient.

Only an idiot would try to argue that 10% better heat efficiency is better than 50% more range.

[Yokaiko]

Donas, on 05 January 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

I know its a sidetrack, but I'd go the other way. Make torso mounted weapons non-convergeable, and arm mounted ones (that have actuators and such) convergeable. You'd have to aim the torso ones (and pinpoint alpha with them would be impossible if they were in separate torso areas), but the arm ones would be a little more flexible.

{Hopping out of the hijack seat.}

I've been screaming that since CB.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Lily from animove, on 05 January 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

according to sarna, er Mlas for IS are 3058

They had ER Large lasers before the Clan invasion.

[Khobai]

Quote

They had ER Large lasers before the Clan invasion.

yes but not ER med lasers.

ERML remained lostech until 3058

[Repasy Cooper]

This needs to be settled. Now.


I've seen IS stomp Clans and Clans stomp IS. I've seen Units stomp Pugs and Pugs stomp Units. Balanced.

Here are the only reasons why CW is imbalanced: Timezones, Units, and Contracts.

The current game mechanics rely on there being an equal # of players on each faction AT ALL TIMES. Can you guess why?

Offense and Defense is decided purely by player count.

It works like this: Each planet has a queue for 2 opposing factions. The first faction to fill up a company of 12 in the queue gets placed on attack/counter attack, and the other faction's next company of 12 gets placed on defense/hold territory. Repeat for each subsequent group of 12. The only exception is when there's nothing to attack for one faction, then they get placed on defense regardless of who finishes the queue race earlier.

So what happens if one faction has too many players? They always win the queue race, so they're always on offense, and opposing factions are always on defense. Wait... if a faction is always on defense, how are they expected to ever gain territory?

How can one faction end up with a surplus of players? 3 ways:

- A majority of their players live in one timezone and play at the same time, while other factions have their units spread throughout the day. This causes an imbalance of players at a specific time.

- A very large unit can suddenly switch contracts to another faction, creating a huge and instant power shift that is impossible to predict or defend against.

- The availability of contracts is in NO WAY influenced by the ratio of players between each faction. You can still join a faction even if the number of players in the faction is doube, TRIPLE the other factions.

In order to fix CW each of these problems need to be addressed:

- If timezones are a problem, there needs to be a way to track this activity and use the collected information to ensure that each timezone has evenly distributed players per faction.

- Even with timezones addressed some units can become too large to predict. IMO this game may eventually need a cap on # of players you can recruit to a unit (IMHHHO, 12).

- Contracts for a faction should be unavailable if joining that faction would cause an imbalance. Your timezone and unit size would be considered at this point. Thus, lone wolfs would have an easier time switching between different factions, becoming more difficult (but still possible!) for larger units.

This is how we can rebalance CW using the current game mechanics. Specifically, the balance ratio for each faction should be determined by the number of offensive and defensive fronts the faction has. Example:

Faction player limit = [#activeplayers] x ..[#factionbattlefronts].. + {coefficient of acceptable imbalance, ie. 6}
...................................................................[#totalbattlefronts]

Problem solved.

This may mean that some players/units won't get to play their favourite faction, and it may mean that some players may get kicked from a faction or put in a waiting line, but the only other option I see is scrapping CW altogether...

Unless people enjoy playing an imbalanced game, in which case keep enjoying CW for another month or so before the whole thing implodes...

Edited by Repasy, 05 January 2015 - 10:09 PM.

[Strikeshadow]

Repasy, on 05 January 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

I've seen IS stomp Clans and Clans stomp IS. I've seen Units stomp Pugs and Pugs stomp Units. Balanced.

So you've played in all 4 types, right.....

Plus, you don't state how often each of these occurs. Either do not know the frequencies or the truth doesn't support your assertion. "Balanced" means PUGs stomp Units just as frequently as Units stomp PUGs.

I've played 40 CW games and I've never seen PUGs stomp a Unit and I've only played in PUG games. For this reason, I refuse to play CW until PGI stops having PUGs face off against Units.

[pwnface]

Strikeshadow, on 05 January 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

So you've played in all 4 types, right.....

Plus, you don't state how often each of these occurs. Either do not know the frequencies or the truth doesn't support your assertion. "Balanced" means PUGs stomp Units just as frequently as Units stomp PUGs.

I've played 40 CW games and I've never seen PUGs stomp a Unit and I've only played in PUG games. For this reason, I refuse to play CW until PGI stops having PUGs face off against Units.

Why in the hell should PUGs stomp units as frequently as units stomping pugs?

If you've played 40 CW games and never beaten an organized unit, maybe you aren't carrying hard enough? I've played only 6 or so PUG CW matches and have won 2 against organized units.

[Repasy Cooper]

pwnface, on 05 January 2015 - 10:59 PM, said:

Why in the hell should PUGs stomp units as frequently as units stomping pugs?

Exactly. cooperation trumps individual achievement in this game. Some units are poorly run, and some pugs can quickly organize a simple but effective strategy if the chemistry is right. Don't assume that just because a player name is prefixed by 3-4 characters enclosed in brackets that player's skill suddenly rises.

Why are units good? Because good players gravitate towards other players, and bad players repel EVERYONE.

Strikeshadow, if you're not willing to join a unit, you'd better be willing & prepared to tough it out with the bad crowd...

And I still stand behind my comments above that factions need to be balanced at all times in order for CW to work out.

[Nightshade24]

also reduce the inner sphere weights as well.

I want to reenact the Timber wolf verse Wolfhound or Direwolf verse Centurion battles just like in lore.


(if we want pure lore. unnerf the **** out of the clans... specificly the energy weapons... also make Inner sphere mechs forced to be stock because they can't be modified after they exit the factory without spending a few 10+ million c-bills on it. if you want 100% lore....)

I am a fan of lore... but this doesn't apply here...

[JadeTimberwolf]

Strikeshadow, on 05 January 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

So you've played in all 4 types, right.....

Plus, you don't state how often each of these occurs. Either do not know the frequencies or the truth doesn't support your assertion. "Balanced" means PUGs stomp Units just as frequently as Units stomp PUGs.

I've played 40 CW games and I've never seen PUGs stomp a Unit and I've only played in PUG games. For this reason, I refuse to play CW until PGI stops having PUGs face off against Units.

Because of life I am only able to drop on average into 1 or 2 CW matches a night and most of the time those end up being either pure pugs and pugs with roughly a lance worth of 1 unit and in that I have seen both stomp premades more than once, not equally but more than once, Hell there was one pure pug drop I was in where we went against a 12 man Davion unit, We we able to win that match.I feel that the following snipped quote is relatively accurate.

Repasy, on 05 January 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

I've seen IS stomp Clans and Clans stomp IS. I've seen Units stomp Pugs and Pugs stomp Units. Balanced.

Oh and I am in no way a skilled player, my average Match Score on a good day of CW ranges from 60-100, just means I need practice and the best practice out there is running CW, especially right now for us CJF members with MS and CI working for Steiner, two great Units skill-wise to match up against.

Edited by JadeTimberwolf, 06 January 2015 - 12:03 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Nightshade24, on 05 January 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:

also reduce the inner sphere weights as well.

I want to reenact the Timber wolf verse Wolfhound or Direwolf verse Centurion battles just like in lore.


(if we want pure lore. unnerf the **** out of the clans... specificly the energy weapons... also make Inner sphere mechs forced to be stock because they can't be modified after they exit the factory without spending a few 10+ million c-bills on it. if you want 100% lore....)

I am a fan of lore... but this doesn't apply here...

the issue is, Mechwarrior was always a bit of a totally free customisation, thats the spirit of emchwarrior compared to battletech. Yet what bothers me is that with the way the lore was bent, IS mechs have more freedome than Clanmechs.
And this is causing imbalance amongst the clans.
mechs who have the upgrades like SCR and TBR and be top tonnage basicaly do not suffer from these "clan construction rules" But already inferior mechs, can not take advantage of them, which even if they could would not make them equally strong to those who have. And by this allowing at elats ES/FF as a upgrades this would not make clannes more OP, it would just make bad mechs a bit less bad (but still not entirely good).

I am not for 100 lore, because we only can choose a mech or 4, and so clanners would be totally OP by 100% lore like mechanics, but we should at least create a system that gives every mech a suitable place, but we do not have any BV's judging a mech, and so a summoner will always compared to a TBR be bad while it is only 5t less mech. But the differnece from a enjoyable game point of view should not be that big.
Hardpoints and their locations + geometry is what defines the character of a IS mech, becasue anything else is mostly customizeable. But many clanners have kinda no soul, they are an empty hull swallowed by other mechs making them obsolete.

[Strikeshadow]

Repasy, on 05 January 2015 - 11:45 PM, said:

Exactly. cooperation trumps individual achievement in this game. Some units are poorly run, and some pugs can quickly organize a simple but effective strategy if the chemistry is right. Don't assume that just because a player name is prefixed by 3-4 characters enclosed in brackets that player's skill suddenly rises.

Why are units good? Because good players gravitate towards other players, and bad players repel EVERYONE.

Strikeshadow, if you're not willing to join a unit, you'd better be willing & prepared to tough it out with the bad crowd...

And I still stand behind my comments above that factions need to be balanced at all times in order for CW to work out.

I already answered this question.

pwnface, on 05 January 2015 - 10:59 PM, said:

Why in the hell should PUGs stomp units as frequently as units stomping pugs?

If you've played 40 CW games and never beaten an organized unit, maybe you aren't carrying hard enough? I've played only 6 or so PUG CW matches and have won 2 against organized units.

So a player who has 1000s of games under his belt wins 1/3 of his games in "balanced" CW matches.....my point stands.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 06 January 2015 - 06:36 AM.

[Strikeshadow]

pwnface, on 05 January 2015 - 10:59 PM, said:

Why in the hell should PUGs stomp units as frequently as units stomping pugs?

If you've played 40 CW games and never beaten an organized unit, maybe you aren't carrying hard enough? I've played only 6 or so PUG CW matches and have won 2 against organized units, unless that was 1 game with 2 organized units allied against PUGs. In which case, he won 1/6.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 06 January 2015 - 06:37 AM.