472 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

Well then what is your explanation for the border getting rolled back the way it has been?



People? What people?

Why is the border getting rolled back? Liao took a bunch of worlds back from Davion and how have it at a stalemate. Since Christmas. We stopped the Liao return adavance at Beid and have been trading it back and forth. Prior to that, back in the first 2 or 3 weeks, we absolutely had numbers - though I don't think my unit lost a match to a Liao unit for the first 4 or 5 days. We were often 12man vs pugs and it was roflstomp city. Marik was (and still is) the biggest serious competitor in terms of rockstar units and skilled teams we play against and do play against.

Every single faction, every single one, manages to deal with this effectively. CSJ has less players than Liao - they are taking worlds left and right. Wait wait, let me guess. They never lose to turret drops?

No, they are just well coordinated and have a strategy every single day. Davion flips worlds by coordination and by winning matches. Same as everyone else who wins repeatedly and consistently. Why don't you get on Twitter and ask Russ what total % of matches are turret drops again? Then you can explain how your anecdotal evidence trumps the raw data.

[Grynos]

The ghost drops are not that much of an issue. They happen for every faction/clan not just Davion and Liao. The problem is CW as it relates to the faction/clan who is in queue first and can maintain the queue has to total advantage every time. The coordination that has been talked over and over again is a means for the exploitation of a bad game mechanic in the game itself. The fact that Liao gains the upper hand during European prime time, is the same reason that Davion has it during The hours before Ceasefire. At that point whomever has the larger population will win regardless of the wins and losses. The wins and losses are stacked against units that have to defend. For instance hypothetically you can win all your matches, every single one, but if you are the defending team it means absolutely nothing. If you win all your matches while attack/counter attacking your wins mean everything. So as long as the population is significantly higher on one faction/clan to the other one, the defenders even if successful do not gain anything.

Smoke Jaguar also has one big difference going for it that Liao does not. Any clan can defend their borders. Liao as well as Davion and Marik do not have that option.

It seems to me that fighting against Marik has stalled , yet no one taking their planets. Kurita has their hands full with clans, yet their borders do not get pushed. So your coordination is basically currently only against Liao. Which in prime time for ceasefire you have a significant adavatage over. By all means keep pushing on Liao, but eventually most of us are going to get tired ( due to CW's issues ) and refuse to do CW....

What happens then??????????

[MischiefSC]

Grynos, on 14 January 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

The ghost drops are not that much of an issue. They happen for every faction/clan not just Davion and Liao. The problem is CW as it relates to the faction/clan who is in queue first and can maintain the queue has to total advantage every time. The coordination that has been talked over and over again is a means for the exploitation of a bad game mechanic in the game itself. The fact that Liao gains the upper hand during European prime time, is the same reason that Davion has it during The hours before Ceasefire. At that point whomever has the larger population will win regardless of the wins and losses. The wins and losses are stacked against units that have to defend. For instance hypothetically you can win all your matches, every single one, but if you are the defending team it means absolutely nothing. If you win all your matches while attack/counter attacking your wins mean everything. So as long as the population is significantly higher on one faction/clan to the other one, the defenders even if successful do not gain anything.

Smoke Jaguar also has one big difference going for it that Liao does not. Any clan can defend their borders. Liao as well as Davion and Marik do not have that option.

It seems to me that fighting against Marik has stalled , yet no one taking their planets. Kurita has their hands full with clans, yet their borders do not get pushed. So your coordination is basically currently only against Liao. Which in prime time for ceasefire you have a significant adavatage over. By all means keep pushing on Liao, but eventually most of us are going to get tired ( due to CW's issues ) and refuse to do CW....

What happens then??????????

It's only against Liao right now because we simply don't have the people to even show up for Kurita and Marik. Marik has been taking planets from Davion daily, often with few/no units resisting. The fighting there has stalled because quit bluntly we don't have enough units to fight them effectively. They fight hard and well and wins are close things. Even if populations are similar we're generally 50/50 with them. End of the day we have to pick who we're going to lose a world to; Marik or Liao. Currently we've decided to lose worlds to Marik because focusing on Liao we can fight to a standstill. Against Marik we were going 100% and losing on both fronts - attack and defense. We have enough troops to hold Liao at a a +1/-1 consistently. Kurita is busy on their Clan borders - if they don't show up neither do we. Liao attacks every day (we're really the only ones for you to fight so that makes sense) so it's probably 80% or 90% of Davions troops you're dealing with - and outnumbering most days.

That's a separate issue I've brought up many times; Liao has no real options.

The 20th will bring a lot of folks in. Keep in mind there are several Davion european units that will have a bigger impact after then as well. I suspect the 20th will move population impact more in favor of Davion than Liao.

Liao is in a crappy map position. If Marik ever decided to put an end to your treaty it would pretty much be over. You would have to beat Davion and not lose worlds to Davion every day for ~140 days to open a Kurita border - assuming Marik wasn't taking Davion worlds at the same time, effectively pushing your Marik border out at the same speed you were moving through Davion.

Conversely if populations shift even a bit and Marik shifts there attention to Steiner you're back to facing a Davion that is bigger than yourselves.

As I've said before and will say again, the inability to open new fronts for factions like Liao (and to a degree CSJ and Jade Falcon) creates significant long-term issues for the viability of those factions. Liao is pegged to Davions population and the support of Marik, both in leaving them along and drawing Davion heat from Liao 24x7.

It is not 'turret drops' that screw Liao and make their efforts seems pointless. It's map position. In the end there is absolutely nothing Liao can do to 'win' or gain significant advantages or opportunities. Their success is driven not by their own performance but Davion population and Marik generosity. THAT is the biggest problem here. That's where you get to 'what happens then'.

[Grynos]

If you have a huge European population, why are they not stepping up to the plate??

Until the flaws with the game mechanics of CW are changed, the decline in participants will continue, which has been steadily happening day after day. If a game mode is not fun people will stay away from it, which is what is starting to happen to CW. This is not a Liao only problem, check the other forums, a lot of people are tired of the way currently is.

The realistic risk though is by the flaws in CW , there is a strong chance that it will never recover the damages it created even if the changes happen further on down the road.

I also know about your ideas about Liao's situation. But unfortunately while those ideas are creative and well thought , it still will not change the aspect of the gameplay flaws in CW.

[MischiefSC]

Grynos, on 14 January 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

If you have a huge European population, why are they not stepping up to the plate??

Until the flaws with the game mechanics of CW are changed, the decline in participants will continue, which has been steadily happening day after day. If a game mode is not fun people will stay away from it, which is what is starting to happen to CW. This is not a Liao only problem, check the other forums, a lot of people are tired of the way currently is.

The realistic risk though is by the flaws in CW , there is a strong chance that it will never recover the damages it created even if the changes happen further on down the road.

I also know about your ideas about Liao's situation. But unfortunately while those ideas are creative and well thought , it still will not change the aspect of the gameplay flaws in CW.

The shift on the 20th will. It's in the recent Command Chair post on CW. We're going to have 3 different 'cease fire' times, each ~8 hours apart. It's pretty awesome and should solve a lot of issues that way.

[Grynos]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

The shift on the 20th will. It's in the recent Command Chair post on CW. We're going to have 3 different 'cease fire' times, each ~8 hours apart. It's pretty awesome and should solve a lot of issues that way.

But it really doesn't is what I am trying to get you to understand friend. While the change with 3 ceasefire will help to some extent, there are other aspects that still need to be reworked so that CW can be the game mode that flourishes well into the future.

It actually might have been better if PGI put out Solaris first. So that competitive units had something to strive for against one another. I hate it when I hear people downgrade the solo players because of CW, and most of the response say " you can go back to solo queue then if you do not like it " . That is part of the reason why CW is in the shape it is in, because certain people cannot just look at this as another game mode. Realistically that's all it is.

[Surn]

Just add bots and this problem is solved.

[MischiefSC]

Grynos, on 14 January 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

But it really doesn't is what I am trying to get you to understand friend. While the change with 3 ceasefire will help to some extent, there are other aspects that still need to be reworked so that CW can be the game mode that flourishes well into the future.

It actually might have been better if PGI put out Solaris first. So that competitive units had something to strive for against one another. I hate it when I hear people downgrade the solo players because of CW, and most of the response say " you can go back to solo queue then if you do not like it " . That is part of the reason why CW is in the shape it is in, because certain people cannot just look at this as another game mode. Realistically that's all it is.

CW isn't just another game mode though. It's the framework of factions having something to win and lose. It's the concept of matches having more relevance than just the 1 match itself.

I'd say a better option is having Invasion game mode in pug/premade queue. That way people who just want another game mode can play it. Those who want something a bit more can play CW.

[Maxwell Albritten]

Right now if Liao had some god comp team playing for it that had never lost a single match in the history of MWO it wouldn't change anything. Even if this comp team had 36 members on everynight it wouldn't matter.Hell, never lost a single *mech* in the history of MWO it wouldn't matter.

Because as things are Davion ghost drops trump skill.

Everytime I see you Davs post in here trying to pretend otherwise all I hear is "Gee, I hope no one notices that we're afraid to fight someone our own size!"

[Harathan]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

I just watched Bied get turret-walked up to 40% with 12 attackers and 0-7 defenders. Probably about as much boredom as TCAF could take. I don't blame them; turret walks are boring.

I happened to have yesterday off work, watched that too. I'm still trying to find the thread where all these Liao players call out their own side for ghost dropping.

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

Need more attackers on Beid, so we can play Davion and shoot some turrets.

Oh, nevermind. Apparently Liao units are being encouraged to do it. Because DAVION.

Maxwell Albritten, on 15 January 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Right now if Liao had some god comp team playing for it that had never lost a single match in the history of MWO it wouldn't change anything. Even if this comp team had 36 members on everynight it wouldn't matter.Hell, never lost a single *mech* in the history of MWO it wouldn't matter.

Because as things are Davion ghost drops trump skill.

Everytime I see you Davs post in here trying to pretend otherwise all I hear is "Gee, I hope no one notices that we're afraid to fight someone our own size!"

How are you still even trying to pretend that all Davion units are doing is winning ghost drops? We can't even get enough players on right now to defend the worlds we do have, let alone ghost drop our attack worlds.

Edited by Harathan, 15 January 2015 - 01:03 PM.

[Pit]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

The fighting there has stalled because quit bluntly we don't have enough units to fight them effectively. They fight hard and well and wins are close things. Even if populations are similar we're generally 50/50 with them.

ROFL Finally they admit it.

/thread

Edited by Pit, 15 January 2015 - 01:01 PM.

[Harathan]

Pit, on 15 January 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

ROFL Finally they admit it.

Admitting that we usually have a tough time fighting Marik is not something new. Both Davion and Marik aligned units almost universally respect one another due to the very good fights each side gives.

Edited by Harathan, 15 January 2015 - 01:07 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Pit, on 15 January 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

ROFL Finally they admit it.

When Marik is dropping 60+ vs 12 of us we're better off moving those 12 to make our fights with Liao 24/24 - which we tend to win out on. We lose worlds to turret drops both to Liao and Marik - always have from time to time, it happens. if we don't show that's not their fault it's ours. Same way *almost* every other faction deals with it.

Of course when it's happening to Liao then there's no point in anything and the only reason Liao loses is ghost drops. Otherwise they are unstoppable

Not trying to offend anyone here but on average Marik are tougher to beat than Liao. We're happy to match Marik 50/50 and when we flip worlds with them one way or the other it absolutely does tend to be numbers-driven. Playing Liao we more often come out ahead when populations are similar. That's likely driven by more organized units - a 6man plus 6 pugs is going to beat a 2man plus 10 pugs most of the time. Liao only tends to field a couple of large organized units, Davion still has a few and of the smaller units many of us still syncdrop on the same TS server for coordination.

Pilot for pilot almost all factions are the same. Differences are largely populations and organization. That's not new.

[Pit]

You're not convincing anyone that Liao has the same population as Davion guys. come on.

[Harathan]

Pit, on 15 January 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

You're not convincing anyone that Liao has the same population as Davion guys. come on.

You should pay more attention then.

[wanderer]

Quote

How are you still even trying to pretend that all Davion units are doing is winning ghost drops? We can't even get enough players on right now to defend the worlds we do have, let alone ghost drop our attack worlds.

That's precisely how Teng flipped last night. 24 Davion,12 Liao. We were winning 2/3 but since the ghost drops kept coming, we lost the planet.

[Pit]

wanderer, on 15 January 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

That's precisely how Teng flipped last night. 24 Davion,12 Liao. We were winning 2/3 but since the ghost drops kept coming, we lost the planet.

Not to mention the 56/0 that were online for about 2 hours prior.

[Harathan]

wanderer, on 15 January 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

That's precisely how Teng flipped last night. 24 Davion,12 Liao. We were winning 2/3 but since the ghost drops kept coming, we lost the planet.

To be fair, last night was the first time in over a week that Davion has been able to field those kinds of numbers. If that resulted in ghost drops, I can guarantee that it wasn't intentional. Ghost drops are boring for whoever is doing them, playing for Davion doesn't confer any magical immunity to that boredom.

You also fail to offer an alternative; why should undefended territory not be attackable?

Pit, on 15 January 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Not to mention the 56/0 that were online for about 2 hours prior.

I can't speak for those numbers (and since there's no screenshot, forgive me being skeptical) but I wish I'd taken screenshots of Beid getting ghost capped. You're happy to throw insults against other factions for doing it, but have no issue doing it yourselves apparently.

Populations will not always be equal, nor should they be. When they're uneven, ghost drops happen. Is that ideal? No. Do ALL the factions make use of ghost drops, including Liao? Yes. Are Liao the only faction in the entire game that whine about it all the time and claim that it's the only reason they ever lose? You bet.

Edited by Harathan, 15 January 2015 - 02:16 PM.

[MischiefSC]

most of today has been 24 to 0 on Beid; we finally got 24 pugs together. I've won 2 of the 3 matches I've played so far. However Beid went to 60% in favor of Liao with only 0-12 Davion present. Which is okay - it happens. We didn't show. The difference is that if Beid flips (as has happened before) it wasn't because Liao ghost-dropped us; it's because we didn't show. There's a difference and it what separates every other factions attitude from the one expressed here by some people.

Yesterday though we did show up in force. Huge bump in Davion population, was good to see. First time in a long time. At which point Liao just went away. We had enough people to actually hold Marik off when Liao population went to 0. We were already ahead at that time but largely irrelevant; we had enough people to totally overwhelm Liao. Haven't seen that in weeks.

If someone needs to pretend that they only reason they lose is ghost drops that's fine. Whatever helps them sleep. There's people who say that the only reason they ever lose in pug queue is 'bad pugs on their team' because 'they are always the top 1-3 scores for their team, every time every match'. Also the ever popular 'TDR 9S is way OP and that's the only reason IS can beat the Clans'. A lot of those sorts of arguments. Facts, while interesting, are irrelevant.

I hate dropping on turret stomps. Generally I'll drop out of queue before it drops on a turret and go somewhere else. It's a lot of wasted time and it's a game I'm playing. I don't recall my last turret drop against Marik. I'm finding, after conversations like these, that dropping against turrets on Liao bothers me less and less. I have a lot of respect for Marik. They play well, fight hard and play to win and are cool people to play with and against, win or lose. Would that everyone was that cool.

[Pit]

Oh i see what's going on, I see we are even right now. Oh hey. we're winning Beid too! Nice.