653 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

2.5 more tons would also allow an LB-20X ( RA and 6 ER Smalls in the (Prime) LA (and 3.5 tons of ammo). Or an LB-10X (B-RA), 3 tons ammo, 6 ERSmalls (Prime LA) and 4x MG (S-RT/LT) with 1.5 tons of ammo. Which would probably be my "go-to" build.

or a plethora of other outside the box builds.

the LB-20X and 6 ERSLas was actually the first thing I built in the mechlab when swapping out for Endo. XD Well, I went Ultra-20, but crit space permitting in the arm, the LB-20X would be superior.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

2.5 more tons would also allow an LB-20X ( RA and 6 ER Smalls in the (Prime) LA (and 3.5 tons of ammo). Or an LB-10X (B-RA), 3 tons ammo, 6 ERSmalls (Prime LA) and 4x MG (S-RT/LT) with 1.5 tons of ammo. Which would probably be my "go-to" build.

or a plethora of other outside the box builds.

2 ERLLs, 12 ERSLs with 18 DHS as well, if we ever get the A-LT, along with some triple AMS builds. 6 ERML, 21 DHS and 7k ammo with 3 AMS seems nice enough.


Though, I suppose something other than laserspam would be possible (without stripping half your armour). I used to run a UAC10 and Gauss with 4/5 ERMLs before the ERML heat nerf. It was fun.


Although, the big thing that we can't account for is...how would Endo be allocated? Because the Nova could lose up to 4 DHS due to Endo slots if they are positioned poorly, or losing a LAA in order to fit them. Most heatsink heavy builds are already at capacity, with free Endo placement.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 10 January 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

2 ERLLs, 12 ERSLs with 18 DHS as well, if we ever get the A-LT, along with some triple AMS builds. 6 ERML, 21 DHS and 7k ammo with 3 AMS seems nice enough.


Though, I suppose something other than laserspam would be possible (without stripping half your armour). I used to run a UAC10 and Gauss with 4/5 ERMLs before the ERML heat nerf. It was fun.


Although, the big thing that we can't account for is...how would Endo be allocated? Because the Nova could lose up to 4 DHS due to Endo slots if they are positioned poorly, or losing a LAA in order to fit them. Most heatsink heavy builds are already at capacity, with free Endo placement.

that's the question, ain't it? Regardless, can't see any place where it couldn't make credible use of 2.5 more tons.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

wow. Thanks for turning my thread into your personal debate platform guys. We got a nice PM function if you're just going to restate the same thing 20 different ways.

K, thx.

sometimes it cant be helped, people can be distracted by what they dont agree with even if its off topic,
personally i dont agree with the Topic, unlocking Endo & Ferro, because i think it goes against what an Omni is,
i also worry that if upgrading is needed to be competitive, then upgrading not a real choice but a requirement,

i would rather they unlocked the locked Non-DHS Equipment, but my ideas and feelings aside,
i can see and understand where you are coming from, and i can respect your feelings and opinion,
we are both trying to insight change just in different ways, good luck in your mission, o7

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 10 January 2015 - 01:01 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

that's the question, ain't it? Regardless, can't see any place where it couldn't make credible use of 2.5 more tons.

Well, 12/13 ERSL builds. Those already have too much tonnage and I need to bring AP+TC1 to make up tonnage.


But I think....that is it. Things with 22+DHS are at the max crit space, and couldn't make use of Endo.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 10 January 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Well, 12/13 ERSL builds. Those already have too much tonnage and I need to bring AP+TC1 to make up tonnage.


But I think....that is it. Things with 22+DHS are at the max crit space, and couldn't make use of Endo.

If the Nova could take endo, I'd be much more inclined to run 5 or 6 x CMPLs over 5 or 6x CERMLAS - but yeah with the 12x CERSLAS you don't want Endo without the simultaneous ability to dump the tonnage gained directly into engine upgrade.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

I'm certainly quite guilty of ignoring corerules...

In this case I've actually grown to accept the Omni system (for the most part). Which is actually very ironic, because before the Clans came, I know that I hated them and asked for the Omnimechs to be handled like 100% like Battlemechs instead (like previous MW games did). I think I might also remember you being on the opposite side?

I could easily put together a list of mechs/variants that would suck 10 times more than they do now if you got what you wanted... to name a few, the Gargoyle-Prime, Summoner-Prime (except for Bishop Steiner ), Mist Lynx (except the C variant)... yea, but the good mechs would probably still survive that.

Quote

The Mister-Potatohead system of pod swapping is more fun than I expected it to be, and trying to work around the restricted base chassis proved to be an interesting min-max challenge (except for really bad base chassis like the Gargles...). It's kind of like a puzzle, trying to fit all of the pieces into place just right...

You need more of your daily dose of daily garglewub.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 10 January 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

I could easily put together a list of mechs/variants that would suck 10 times more than they do now if you got what you wanted... to name a few, the Gargoyle-Prime, Summoner-Prime (except for Bishop Steiner ), Mist Lynx (except the C variant)... yea, but the good mechs would probably still survive that.




You need more of your daily dose of daily garglewub.

I like the "mostly" prime version of the Gag-oil too. Just drop to srm4s for for efficiency and more lbx ammo

[DrXitomatl]

I support this initiative.

[Mavairo]

Suckoner needs endo steel. Badly.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 10 January 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

I could easily put together a list of mechs/variants that would suck 10 times more than they do now if you got what you wanted... to name a few, the Gargoyle-Prime, Summoner-Prime (except for Bishop Steiner ), Mist Lynx (except the C variant)... yea, but the good mechs would probably still survive that.

You need more of your daily dose of daily garglewub.

If I got what I wanted, which is quirks for underperforming robots, I don't think they'd become worse somehow.

[Andi Nagasia]

i think that FupDup is right Quirks would help balanced the the Under Performers allot,
but i still think unlocking locked non-DSH equipment would be a better then unlocking Endo/Ferro,
as unlocking the JJ of the underperformed and adding more Omni-pods i feel would be better,
then an Endo/Ferro Competition Tax, really not trying to poke fun at it but its how i feel,

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

It reduced the variance between locked JJs on some mechs and "not locked" on other mechs, while simultaneously not even negatively affecting the Kit Fox in any way that matters.

It's not about some mechs or other mechs, it's about mech singular. That mech being the Timberwolf. Or to be specific, the Timberwolf-S, using the infamous Timbertart loadout. That is the one reason that this was done. Nothing more, nothing less. If we never got the TBR, or at least not the TBR-S, it wouldn't have happened. I'm like 99.99998% sure of that. That factoid should say everything that needs to be said...

All of this of course avoids the issue of why people prefer to mount only 1-3 JJs in the first place, in that having lots of jets doesn't give appropriate benefit. So instead of providing a reason to use tonnage on more than 1-3 jets, they just make certain pods take more JJs.

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

...
I see I'm not going to change your mind on this, so I guess feel free to hold a grudge about some ruling that doesn't even negatively affect the Kit Fox.

Yes, I will continue to hold my grudge against a relatively pointless change. I have a tendency of doing that for changes that aren't good. No, "consistency" and normalization are not intrinsically positive (or negative) by themselves. It's just like the stereotype about "Change™" -- sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, sometimes it's neutral, even though the stereotype is that Change™ is always instantly good (in reality it depends on what the specific change was).

This has happened in the past with things like pulse lasers in 2012 and autocannons a bit later, and it's had some pretty bad results. The only actually good "normalizing" pass in MWO's history was probably the recent pulse laser changes that came with the Quirkening.

In my mind, I care more about the reasoning of a change than the magnitude of a change (magnitude does of course matter). I'd complain just as much about increasing the AC/2 heat to 1.09 as I would about reducing the Small Laser's range to 60 meters. Something is either necessary or not necessary. Don't fix what isn't broken...

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

wow. Thanks for turning my thread into your personal debate platform guys. We got a nice PM function if you're just going to restate the same thing 20 different ways.

K, thx.

Hey, I got up to 25 ways!

Wintersdark, on 10 January 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

I'm right with you here. Omnimeh customization is fun - it was actually this that for much the same reason got me on board with Bishop's hardpoint sizes. Limits make minmaxing fun.

The ES/FF thing though, its not tradeoffs. Its not "do I want X, or Y" each with their shares of pros and cons (whether those pros and cons are balanced at face value or not)... Its just an arbitrary "this mech sucks a bit more than that one, because reasons."

Unlock es/ff, nothing else.

I still wish that Endo/FF/STD/etc was tradeoffs instead of upgrades/downgrades.

#legacyfeatures

Edited by FupDup, 10 January 2015 - 07:59 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Long story short:

Unlocking ES/FF won't magically cure everything. Quirks will still be required.

However, unlocking ES/FF will reduce the magnitude of quirks required. Smaller quirks are better for long term game balance; the more complex and extreme the quirks, the harder weapon balance changes become.

The only argument against unlocking ES/FF is "But that's not how omnimechs work in lore" - however, that ship has sailed anyways, given that swapping the structure of a Battlemech is also not how battlemechs work in lore either. While this isn't a reason to change it, the reasons that have been expounded upon in this thread provide plenty of reason to do it, and clearly doing so will not cause balance repercussions. If anything, it's a bit of a balance "gimmie".

Do eet.

[Andi Nagasia]

still worried about it just being a competition Tax,
if its needed to be competitive its a forced choice,

[Mcgral18]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 January 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

still worried about it just being a competition Tax,
if its needed to be competitive its a forced choice,

It will be less than DHS; which is completely mandatory.


I'll take that cost.

[Andi Nagasia]

Mcgral18, on 10 January 2015 - 08:17 PM, said:

It will be less than DHS; which is completely mandatory.

I'll take that cost.

still think unlocking JJ on MLX & NVA & SMN and Flamer on ADR would help them more,
and be more in line with the Spirit of what an Omni-Mech is and how they work,

though Endo would also help MDD & WHK where my idea wouldnt, im mixed,
(shakes fist at the sky) "you will not turn me Bishop/FupDup!!!

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 10 January 2015 - 08:32 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 January 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

still worried about it just being a competition Tax,
if its needed to be competitive its a forced choice,

Unlocking JJs would indeed allow up to 5 tons for the Summoner. Unfortunately it would also mean that to get almost competitive firepower, you remove what makes it tick. And most of the red-headed step children omnis don't have enough "locked" non DHS equipment to make a difference, or that equipment is vital to the mech, in many cases. (Also, TBH, I don't think unlocking the flamer will make much difference on the Adder's viability)

Just my 2 cts.

Endo, on the other hand, is a cheap, and easy, near unilateral boost.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 08:37 PM, said:

...
(Also, TBH, I don't think unlocking the flamer will make much difference on the Adder's viability)
...

Replacing it with an ER SL would provide a tiny smidgen more short range defense, without overheating the user like Flamers do.

Alternately, somebody sadistic like me could mount an ER Large Laser in there are facesnipe with it.



Adder's got a fricken' laser beam attached to his head!

Edited by FupDup, 10 January 2015 - 08:40 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 08:37 PM, said:

Unlocking JJs would indeed allow up to 5 tons for the Summoner. Unfortunately it would also mean that to get almost competitive firepower, you remove what makes it tick. And most of the red-headed step children omnis don't have enough "locked" non DHS equipment to make a difference, or that equipment is vital to the mech, in many cases.

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 08:37 PM, said:

Endo, on the other hand, is a cheap, and easy, near unilateral boost.

true it would help those my fixed idea wouldnt but still mixed,
if PGI could do both and let it us see how it would work on the TestServer,

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 08:37 PM, said:

(Also, TBH, I don't think unlocking the flamer will make much difference on the Adder's viability)

=Adder=
with Flamer,.......16FreeTons(-1E)
without Flamer...16.5FreeTons(+1E)
the Builds the ADR could now run,
3ER-LL & +2MPL,(no-Flamer)
5MPL & +6DHS,(no-Flamer)
2LPL & 3ER-ML & CAP,(no-Flamer)
1ER-LL & 4SRM6(27shots),(no-Flamer)
3ER-ML & 2LRM15(39shots),(no-Flamer)
and many more combinations