1126 replies to this topic

[Kuritaclan]

This joke never get old.

[badaa]

convergence isnt the problem its pinpoint

[Rebas Kradd]

Eldagore, on 07 April 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

it makes people play peek a boo and hide and play turret war. People want role warfare. Impossible with instagank gameplay we have now. Assaults are LOL, every heavy in the game can match assault firepower(mild exageration but not by much) if looking at alpha dmg, and can move at least 1/3 again as fast, and there is no appreciable difference in survivability. So we see that the game has migrated from heavy/assault loaded cues to basically just heavy.

While pinpoint is an issue, I don't agree

[Nayru]

Convergence does need to be removed..

..as in, when you have two ballistic arms, they should instantly fire on whatever they target, rather than fire in a straight line outwards and completely miss your target.

Ballistics are bad enough as is!

[A Large Infant]

ninja post above me about the same subject

Ballistics have a double nerf (triple nerf for Clans) so you would think in a head to head fight they would be superior to lasers while you have ammo still. But due to alpha striking the entire CT off enemy mechs in a single go with lasers, ballistics have all the nerfs and none of the value.

ironically this is where ballistics are supposed to shine. high initial damage per second with low (zero) damage per second later due to ammo dependency. Right now lasers rule initial damage per second AND eventual damage per second, due to the all-at-once nature of their delivery. the ballistic "true" damage per second game is pointless due to peek, gank, flee, peek, gank, flee

[Tim East]

Latorque, on 20 January 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

In addition: convergenge is as much a mechanical issue as it may be related to targeting computers. Gun harmonisation was a already a thing in WW1-era fighterplanes; and no matter how decrepit the state of IS-technology may be; i can't imagine engineers being unable to skew the muzzles a millimeter or two closer towards each other.

Actually, convergence in this game is as if those engineers are altering the angle of those weapons in real time instantaneously. So...yeah. No.

operatorZ, on 07 April 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

Sooo I think some people need to realize that there are actually 3 ways to address this issue:

1) Convergence or lack thereof, scale of perfect all the way to none
2) Cone of Fire, Not all weapons are perfectly accurate, especially when firing together with other weapons

and my favorite...

3) Reticle shake, you have perfect convergence but your reticle moves with mech movement, recoil, collisions and impact. This allows for a high skill ceiling while also removing the "effect of perfect convergence" in most cases...unless you are dead still and not receiving fire...which means you should have perfect convergence.

All 3 of these increase TTK...which is what we are after...or at least those of us in the "know"

So carry on zombie thread...carry on

I don't really have a problem with the first one, since if they made it take time for weapons aim to converge again per the older beta, it would make aiming a thing that actually occurs. If they made torso weapons simply not converge at all, or converge at set angles based on the weapons' optimal ranges like you might expect in the aforementioned example of skewing mounted weapons a couple of centimeters, I probably wouldn't be terribly bothered either, because that is a relatively technologically simple solution that makes a lot of sense to me from a logical perspective.

The second idea isn't bad in my eyes either, since this is something that functions quite adequately in Planetside 2 with a cone of fire based on what you are doing at any given time. Contrary to popular belief, it does not remove the skill factor there, and would not here either, since shot taken singly without moving tend to have a very tight grouping under a proper implementation of such a system.

The third idea is essentially a visual perk for how I would implement the second were I to do so.

On a completely unrelated topic, how cool would it be if they made an alternate cockpit glass texture that was all cracked up or something to replace the default one if your cockpit had taken internal damage? Something something 90's technology, something Wing Commander something something simulation genre and immersion something complete.

[Dirkdaring]

The people that don't want convergence are the ones that play on a joystick and can't aim and hit at anything over 600m. They want to nerf everyone else to be as bad as they are.

And no I'm not joking. Die early and watch some of them.

[Alex Morgaine]

General response to people worried about lrms in general: who'd use them? I thought lrms were useless due to ecm, radar derp, plain cover, weight investment post everything else to be capable, etc.

I don't think there's be many more lrm boats, but a single lrm 5 or 10 added to most like, oh say nearly every non boat stock mech that had em. Bring the lrmaggedon then. They'll either be OP or ignored just like they are right now anyway.

People will just adapt, and lrms will fall into the ignore/zomg op field.funny how this system is useless until someone says something like "how can we make the game less point and click" or "how about a set heat limit to balance over board builds instead of more gh"

Personally I don't see lrms being any more or less used with any of the above changes. Maybe more gauss if any converge/cof accuracy system balances around the charge time, but that's be all, and only if the system had a time similar to the charge time anyway. Too slow, it'd be just as accurate as any ac or ppc, so it wouldn't do much. Too fast and dual GR... GR everywhere.

[WazOfOz]

convergence is fine the way it is.

[Alex Morgaine]

Oh hell, another zombie? Can we get a bouncer to vet the necromancers in this board? Lock and just start a new fresh thread I say.

[R Razor]

pwnface, on 20 January 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

Please no. I want to play a shooter not roll digital dice.

COD is for you then..............pinpoint needs to go.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Eldagore, on 07 April 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

Dear Zombie thread:

Reworking convergence is/sounds like a lot of work. As it has the main point of making TTK take longer, and slowing down the mega alphas there is a much simpler and less "lots of work" solution.

That is, cut the heat cap in half, and change dissipation to go with it. I say half, but cut it by 2/3 might be even better.

Every time some mech with a 70 point laser alpha barfs out 70 points of instant dmg in .6 seconds of duration, a baby urbanmech dies. It doesn't follow the source material, it lead to this crazy alphawarrior game we have, and it makes people play peek a boo and hide and play turret war. People want role warfare. Impossible with instagank gameplay we have now. Assaults are LOL, every heavy in the game can match assault firepower(mild exageration but not by much) if looking at alpha dmg, and can move at least 1/3 again as fast, and there is no appreciable difference in survivability. So we see that the game has migrated from heavy/assault loaded cues to basically just heavy.

Fireing a 70 point laser alpha in any previous MW title would make you explode immediatly. Think MW3, Supernova. that alphastrike button was just another name for "eject". Every time I think abot balance, i think about that MW3 game. They had things so much better balance wise. Burst AC's, low heat cap and high dissipate, useful LRM that prevented mass bombardment through heat and ammo dependancy, etc. Basically, you could shoot lots of weapons, in chainfire. Lots of trigger pulling shooty good times. you could NOT instagank people left and right, because it put you into serious trouble. Load up 5 CERML? Yes! Fire them all at once? I mean, you could, but that would be suboptimal to say the least, and would put you on the defensive for a long bit while the enemy blasted you. Chainfire ERML for a long freegin time? Yes!

it's what made that game so fun, mech battles were lots of shooting, but not at the cost of TTK making it feel arcady or CoD ish. thats what we have right now. CoD boom headshot play with lasers.

Sure we could add cone of fire or some other whole new targeting scheme. OR we could cut the heat cap down big time and force people to break up the 70 point alphas or overheat and die. Sounds harsh, but it really isnt and the backlash would be minimal and brief IMO. At the least, it could be sent to test server for extended trials(like 4 months) to see how it affects play.

Someone should pin this to the wall at the PGI head office.

That being said, and in no way is this a reference to Eldagore, but...

[Soy]

This line right here about seatbelts in this classic scene is basically how I feel about people who struggle with reticle/cursor (and torso/legs).

I dunno why convergence is ever an issue for anyone, ever. These people hate getting 1 shot basically so they want people to stop alphaing and take 10 secs to shoot like it's TT.

Edited by Soy, 07 April 2015 - 05:18 PM.

[R Razor]

Soy, on 07 April 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

This line right here about seatbelts in this classic scene is basically how I feel about people who struggle with reticle/cursor (and torso/legs).

I dunno why convergence is ever an issue for anyone, ever. These people hate getting 1 shot basically so they want people to stop alphaing and take 10 secs to shoot like it's TT.

Ahh but if [Redacted] that claim they are so great and others need to learn to shoot were truly good, they'd be able to handle having to actually AIM separate weapons with a cursor and reticle...........but since I'm sure they are aware of just how hard that would be for them to exploit they'll continue to fight against it.

[Soy]

It's not a problem. Don't you get it? You can put up XYZ mechanics and hoops to jump thru and tryhards and good players will manage. All it does it make **** more convoluted with hand of god junk (aka ghost heat). Newbies who show up from Steam won't know what the FUDGE ghost heat is. Think thru what you're insinuating.

Edited by Soy, 07 April 2015 - 05:26 PM.

[A Large Infant]

Soy, on 07 April 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

I dunno why convergence is ever an issue for anyone, ever.

Edited by MechWarrior4184181, 07 April 2015 - 05:27 PM.

[terrycloth]

Artificially raising the skill cap is not going to make it better for casual players. It'll make it more annoying for everyone because who DOESN'T want to juggle reticles while doing everything else you already do?

Making heat EVEN WORSE would be even worse, though. It's already insanely restrictive.

[A Large Infant]

Why does convergence matter?




Still confused about why convergence matters?

[R Razor]

Soy, on 07 April 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

It's not a problem. Don't you get it? You can put up XYZ mechanics and hoops to jump thru and tryhards and good players will manage. All it does it make **** more convoluted with hand of god junk (aka ghost heat). Newbies who show up from Steam won't know what the FUDGE ghost heat is. Think thru what you're insinuating.

Fine, I won't insinuate, I'll flat out say it...........the majority of players in this game that think they are the "be all end all" pilots and are great at this game do not want pin point removed because they KNOW they are only as good as the next game design mechanic they can figure out how to exploit..........whether that be using a "meta" build, a terrain glitch, a jump jet glitch or any other badly designed or poorly implemented mechanic. That more than anything contributes to their success. Is it a skill? Maybe, I mean I suppose one must be somewhat skillful at finding something worth exploiting or taking advantage of.........but make them actually have to aim those separately mounted weapons in order to score that 60 point alpha and all of the sudden things change............but again, most of those "1337" pilots will never admit to that.

[NRP]

I haven't played a shooter without convergence, but just thinking about what it would be like, I imagine it would totally ruin the game play. You'd never be able to kill anything. Whole matches would go by with 24 live mechs still standing at the end with yellow armor.