In conjunction with that, heatsinks are screwed up and doubles don't cool correctly. With a fixed heat cap it could be reverted to provide quick cooling for mechs without being able to alpha because of the lowered heat cap, thus making the whole game better.
Armor was doubled in CB because HBK-4Ps were alphaing the STs off of Atlases from fresh.
So in TT yeah added up ALL of your heat from a round, movement, environmental, jumping etc and whatever you fired SUBTRACTED the number of heatsinks you had (by the way 10 ALWAYS fit in the engine) and the leftover was applied to the heatscale. MWO doesn't work that way, there is no pre-sinking, EVERYTHING hits the heatscale, and the cap is increased by the number of sinks. Its the EXACT same thing.
So in TT a STOCK AWS-8Q standing still only accrued 2 yes TWO heat per round, 30 heat - 28 shs 3 walking, 4 running. So you could hit all three PPCs three times before you had your first pilot check.
Where they screwed up with MWO WAS pinpoint convergence, so first they doubled armor and then nerfed mlas to 5 heat.
Always trust them to bandaid instead of get out a calculator.
So MWOs heatsinks STILL run on a ten second cycle, 1 point per ten seconds, (like 2.2 elited with DHS till 18), however, NOT ONE SINGLE WEAPON IN THE GAME is less than a 2.5times that 10 second cycle rate up to 18 times the cycle rate in the case of the AC2. In fact a GI with the Guass and a module is rocking a 600% increase in weapon damage over TT with its quirks.
The heatscale itself is fine, but modeling in the penalties on a real time heat bar is likely beyond PGIs ability to preform, they can't even use the sliding convergence we had in CB because the servers couldn't handle it, to many calculations.
The distribution curve you ask for implies we will have less of those rare "Oh ****!" moments, which is one of things that makes gaming fun. I am all for something like R95 to allow the possibility of such things.
This may not be much of a surprise, but I believe we have differing definitons of "fun".
When I want "Oh ****!" moments, I can go play Dead Space in the dark, thank you very much.
When I'm playing MW:O - ideally a balanced, fair, competitive Mech Combat game (key word ideally) - I want to avoid at all cost those "Oh ****!" moments, at least ones induced by means that aren't balanced or fair.
Randomly making something I shoot suddenly miss wildly because of a really low dice roll is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about here. Do. Not. Want.
I want to play a game, not simulate being on a rifle range like some others seem to idealize.
Quote
As you have just realized, the Devil already lives amongst us. So why not work with him instead?
<maniacal >
Because being Random, the Devil cannot be trusted - so it's impossible to work with.
Quote
Here's more proof the RNG Devil is already with us: UAC jamming.
True.......but it's in a very limited, very select fashion that offsets UACs being able to magically dump twice the DPS of a normal AC.
So in this specific case, implemented this specific way, I say it's fine; it doesn't directly affect accuracy or damage (thank god penetration values aren't a thing here) - though it'd be great if it could be made so that you have to fire at least twice to cause a jam; as in, no firing one time, clicking again, and instantly jamming after firing only that single time. :derpy:
I'm actually surprised you didn't point out the more obvious & anger-inducing presence of RNG: Crit rolls.
Those moments where I get barely cored and instantly lose a weapon because of a lucky RNG roll, despite having crit sinks to specifically counter that possiblity...*ugh*.
Thankfully the numbers do make it rare enough that most of the time I'm only losing critted modules after the component's pretty badly damaged (beyond being cored), so personally I can live with it - again, it's not directly affecting what happens when I click "fire weapons" (so long as the weapin is intact), so it's not as big a deal.
Randomly making something I shoot suddenly miss wildly because of a really low dice roll is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about here. Do. Not. Want.
Capslock in the following is meant for emphasis so people can see the keywords. Not meant to be yelling or mad at all.
The problem with the arguments of the most vocal detractors of CoF. You think it works like dice, which have a UNIFORM distribution. The fact that there are two of them get the sum closer to a normal distribution, but still requires lots and lots of dice rolls to achieve that normal distribution.
If you start with a NORMAL distribution and an appropriate standard deviation, and then you cut off the tails so that you'll never get anything 20 sigma away (which is what you all are complaining about), then there isn't this magic shoot sideways issue you all are expecting.
PLEASE go learn some statistics before you rail against any RNG application by citing your specific example of an RNG application that NONE OF US WANT.
Allow me to quote a post I made in this useless thread thirty pages and four months ago, back when people were running around in stupid-circles in here the first time. It still applies. Read it again. And please. Stop. This horse has been dead for years.
1453 R, on 20 January 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:
What this thread, and all other convergence threads, boil down to is, really, a bunch of people arguing for their preferred method of:
"This is how I want to make sure nobody ever hits:
1.) what they aim at
2.) anything more than 150 meters away from their 'Mech
3.) lights
4.) with autocannons
...ever again."
Here's the problem with all these convergence systems trying to force players to sign blood contracts with Lucifer, or force them to perform arcane rituals under the full moon, in order to hit what they aim at. Players in this game like hitting and dislike missing. They will find a way to hit what they aim at no matter how much you try and convince them that hitting what they aim at is unrealistic and against BattleTech lore. Remove convergence in favor of fixed everything, or some ridiculous cone-of-fire effect where the entire screen is your crosshair at five hundred meters? I guarantee you that the new meta will be SRM splat. Get right up in their faces, point-blank, and let 'em have it with SRMs.
How're you going to stop them, after all? SRM splat is competitive now, when splat 'Mechs have to actually fear being hit from more than 150 meters away. Remove a player's ability to hit a target beyond 150 meters and all you do is force fights into occurring under 150 meters. Number of missile hardpoints becomes the new determinant of Good vs. Bad, not placement of ballistic/energy hardpoints. And the forums erupt in screams of rage that the Evil SRM Meta is ruining their fun.
People, please realize. You are never going to get rid of players' desire to kill their enemies as quickly and effectively as possible. You are never going to get rid of the fact that bracketed builds are bad, were bad in TT and will remain bad in MWO. You are never going to get rid of the fact that making the single most fundamental interaction between players in this game - that is, the act of aiming and shooting at enemy pilots - sketchy, unpredictable, and unreliable will render your game effectively unplayable.
Stop. Please. There are many things far more worthy of attention than breaking aim.
I see no reason that both camps cannot be appeased.
If you want to make 100% sure that your shot hits where the reticle is, make it so firing one weapon is accurate and precise, as long as you are stationary and within heat tolerances.
Make fixed (mechlab adjustable) convergence apply to group fire.
Give CoF to any shots fired outside of optimal heat ranges. (this would require a re-work of the heat system)
Voila! Everybody can get what they want.
Unless what they want is massive instant pinpoint alphas, which have no place in the BattleTech universe.
Allow me to quote a post I made in this useless thread thirty pages and four months ago, back when people were running around in stupid-circles in here the first time. It still applies. Read it again. And please. Stop. This horse has been dead for years.
What your old post skips or conveniently ignores are as follows:
No one suggests that the CoF be so big shots are completely missed at 150m, much less cover the entire screen.
Your conclusion that everyone will fight within 150m is completly baseless.
Aiming and "shooting at a pixel" are two different things.
Many people playing MWO would rather it be more a simulator and much less CoD on Mech skins.
And finally, you, along with many others posting here, seem to be convinced that using hyperbole to bolster your arguments actually works.
I see no reason that both camps cannot be appeased.
I do, I do! Lemme show you!
Hotthedd, on 12 April 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:
If you want to make 100% sure that your shot hits where the reticle is, make it so firing one weapon is accurate and precise, as long as you are stationary and within heat tolerances.
So...my fire goes where I tell it to if, AND ONLY IF, I'm standing dead stock still - in the open, mind, so that I can find the target and a clear line of sight to it - have not fired any other weapons in the last thirty seconds, and prefer to hit what I am at with only one medium laser at a time?
Tell me again why I'm not just loading myself down with LRMs and bombarding scrubs, or loading up on SRMs and splatting all over your business, when you have eliminated accurate gunfire as an option?
Hotthedd, on 12 April 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:
Make fixed (mechlab adjustable) convergence apply to group fire.
I.e. "my guns only hit what they aim at at this one precise distance, because World War 2 dogfighters had fixed convergence ranges instead of, y'know, gimbaled weapon mounts."
Because again, we want to make sure that accurate gunfire is an impossibility, so that missiles may rein supreme The Spirit Of BattleTech TableTop is properly maintained.
Hotthedd, on 12 April 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:
Give CoF to any shots fired outside of optimal heat ranges. (this would require a re-work of the heat system)
Except people who want to, I'unno...HIT WHAT THEY AIM AT. Those guys are just flat SOL because man, isn't it funny that people feel like being able to hit what they aim at in a game whose central player interaction is aiming at and hitting their enemies is fair? What a bunch of maroons, amiryte?
Hotthedd, on 12 April 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:
Unless what they want is massive instant pinpoint alphas, which have no place in the BattleTech universe.
So what you do is you don't disable aiming as a required skill of this game, and instead work on a proper heatscale system such that people pay for large alphas with potentially debilitating heat buildup effects. Because, and here's a secret I'm going to share with you Hotthead. Are you ready for it? This is totally going to just blow your mind - you may want to sit down when you read it. Here goes:
Firing two medium lasers at the same time deals twice the damage of firing one medium laser. That means your enemy dies twice as fast, which means they deal half as much damage back to you, which in turn means you have more armor left to fight the next guy with. In the end, that means you win the game.
You are never, never, never, never, NEVER going to convince anyone that taking the time to come to a dead stop and let your heat bar zero out so you can fire ONE MEDIUM LASER accurately enough to actually hit what you aim at is A.) true to BattleTech lore, B.) a fun and effective way to play the game, or C.) fair to the player. You do that to me, man? I'm going to load up my 5x C-SRM Stormcrow and I'm going to destroy continents until such time as I get to hit what I aim at with non-missile weapons again. Like I said above, what're you gonna do to stop me? You can't hit me with accurate gunfire outside SRM range anyways, and if you slow down to a dead stop and let your heat bar zero out to try and circumvent that? Well hell, while you're firing single accurate shots at me, I'm going to bolt at you through cover at a hundred and seven klicks prior to shoving so many missiles up your rump that they'll start exploding from your ears. Unless you've got a pile of SRM launchers too, there will be absolutely nothing in Creation you can do to stop me.
Would I find it particularly entertaining to run all missiles all day erry day? Nah, not really. In truth I'd probably just go play a bunch more Pillars of Eternity and poke at MWO when I'm in the mood for a missile massacre. Which is what a lot of folks would do, I imagine, if they logged onto MechWarrior Online one day and found out that every 'Mechbay maintenance technician, every ordinance specialist, every targeting software calibration engineer, and every 'Mechwarrior in the entirety of the BattleTech universe had suddenly and permanently gone both nearsighted and cross-eyed. Y'know...like this.
Is that really what we want our MWO matches to look like? Because it'd be hysterical the first time, hilarious the second, funny the third, mildly amusing the fourth, and then would drop off really quick from there.
You are never, never, never, never, NEVER going to convince anyone that taking the time to come to a dead stop and let your heat bar zero out so you can fire ONE MEDIUM LASER accurately enough to actually hit what you aim at is A.) true to BattleTech lore, B.) a fun and effective way to play the game, or C.) fair to the player. You do that to me, man? I'm going to load up my 5x C-SRM Stormcrow and I'm going to destroy continents until such time as I get to hit what I aim at with non-missile weapons again.
Go look up the rules for TT called shots.
Its perfectly accurate.
AND most FPS games that have come out since I dunno DOOM have some form of COF, there is absolutely no reason why MWO can't.
why do the people that want to keep convergence act like any change will make their guns spray blindly around, wouldn't convergence just be the difference between the gun's baseline straight forward and where the cursor is? even at enough heat to make convergence near 0, it wouldn't be too much trouble to land part of your payload on a target at good distance. this would just make laser-puking far less effective since you'd be spraying it all over the 'mech instead of into the location of your interest until you've cooled down.
This may not be much of a surprise, but I believe we have differing definitons of "fun".
Well, if you haven't figured that one out yet, then I am afraid I cannot help you.
Telmasa, on 12 April 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:
When I want "Oh ****!" moments, I can go play Dead Space in the dark, thank you very much.
When I'm playing MW:O - ideally a balanced, fair, competitive Mech Combat game (key word ideally) - I want to avoid at all cost those "Oh ****!" moments, at least ones induced by means that aren't balanced or fair.
Randomly making something I shoot suddenly miss wildly because of a really low dice roll is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about here. Do. Not. Want.
Many just want to avoid those "Oh ****!" moments. But it is a rare gem who prevails in spite of them.
Telmasa, on 12 April 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:
I want to play a BattleTech game of war in the InnerSphere and beyond, not simulate being on a rifle range play another version of Call of Duty like some others seem to idealize want.
FTFY.
Telmasa, on 12 April 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:
Because being Random, the Devil cannot be trusted - so it's impossible to work with.
True.......but it's in a very limited, very select fashion that offsets UACs being able to magically dump twice the DPS of a normal AC.
So in this specific case, implemented this specific way, I say it's fine; it doesn't directly affect accuracy or damage (thank god penetration values aren't a thing here) - though it'd be great if it could be made so that you have to fire at least twice to cause a jam; as in, no firing one time, clicking again, and instantly jamming after firing only that single time. :derpy:
I'm actually surprised you didn't point out the more obvious & anger-inducing presence of RNG: Crit rolls.
Those moments where I get barely cored and instantly lose a weapon because of a lucky RNG roll, despite having crit sinks to specifically counter that possiblity...*ugh*.
Thankfully the numbers do make it rare enough that most of the time I'm only losing critted modules after the component's pretty badly damaged (beyond being cored), so personally I can live with it - again, it's not directly affecting what happens when I click "fire weapons" (so long as the weapin is intact), so it's not as big a deal.
But you are already working with the Devil, since the first time you played the game. Denial will just allow him to possess your soul.
You are never, never, never, never, NEVER going to convince anyone that taking the time to come to a dead stop and let your heat bar zero out so you can fire ONE MEDIUM LASER accurately enough to actually hit what you aim at is A.) true to BattleTech lore, B.) a fun and effective way to play the game, or C.) fair to the player. You do that to me, man? I'm going to load up my 5x C-SRM Stormcrow and I'm going to destroy continents until such time as I get to hit what I aim at with non-missile weapons again. Like I said above, what're you gonna do to stop me? You can't hit me with accurate gunfire outside SRM range anyways, and if you slow down to a dead stop and let your heat bar zero out to try and circumvent that? Well hell, while you're firing single accurate shots at me, I'm going to bolt at you through cover at a hundred and seven klicks prior to shoving so many missiles up your rump that they'll start exploding from your ears. Unless you've got a pile of SRM launchers too, there will be absolutely nothing in Creation you can do to stop me.
Would I find it particularly entertaining to run all missiles all day erry day? Nah, not really. In truth I'd probably just go play a bunch more Pillars of Eternity and poke at MWO when I'm in the mood for a missile massacre. Which is what a lot of folks would do, I imagine, if they logged onto MechWarrior Online one day and found out that every 'Mechbay maintenance technician, every ordinance specialist, every targeting software calibration engineer, and every 'Mechwarrior in the entirety of the BattleTech universe had suddenly and permanently gone both nearsighted and cross-eyed. Y'know...like this.
funny - well we didn't had a deep SRM Meta yet - maybee the time is right for it.
AND most FPS games that have come out since I dunno DOOM have some form of COF, there is absolutely no reason why MWO can't.
Frankly, I don't give a f*** what the TT rules for called shots are.
I can 'call a shot' with one medium laser to avoid ridiculous penalties...or I can do the FPS equivalent of taking a shotgun in one hand, a shotgun in the other hand, a shotgun in my teeth, and a shotgun strapped to each nipple, run up to you, and sandblast you into Oblivion because you can't stop me while your collection of assault rifles is busy emulating a squad of novice stormtroopers.
Which of those sounds like it's going to win games to you?
Ragtag soldier, on 12 April 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:
why do the people that want to keep convergence act like any change will make their guns spray blindly around, wouldn't convergence just be the difference between the gun's baseline straight forward and where the cursor is? even at enough heat to make convergence near 0, it wouldn't be too much trouble to land part of your payload on a target at good distance. this would just make laser-puking far less effective since you'd be spraying it all over the 'mech instead of into the location of your interest until you've cooled down.
Members of the Church of Skill do not want such things because they are the opposed to the Devil Incarnate named RNG.
Frankly, I don't give a f*** what the TT rules for called shots are.
I can 'call a shot' with one medium laser to avoid ridiculous penalties...or I can do the FPS equivalent of taking a shotgun in one hand, a shotgun in the other hand, a shotgun in my teeth, and a shotgun strapped to each nipple, run up to you, and sandblast you into Oblivion because you can't stop me while your collection of assault rifles is busy emulating a squad of novice stormtroopers.
Which of those sounds like it's going to win games to you?
technically a called shot means that if you'd replaced those five shotguns with five rifle you could instead opt to fire them all into your opponent's left eye, as called shots in TT aren't restricted to a single weapon system. braced shots are, but that's something different.
And do most FPS games feature multiple weapons being fired at the same time?
You cannot compare MWO to "most FPS's".
That has exactly NOTHING to do with it, and you know it. Its more about forcing some spread. It doesn't mean that if fires all over the damn screen, its about forcing SOME parity between spead damage weapons and pin-point/hitscan....as well as increasing TTK.5
Because right now there is none.
1453 R, on 12 April 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:
Frankly, I don't give a f*** what the TT rules for called shots are.
I can 'call a shot' with one medium laser to avoid ridiculous penalties...or I can do the FPS equivalent of taking a shotgun in one hand, a shotgun in the other hand, a shotgun in my teeth, and a shotgun strapped to each nipple, run up to you, and sandblast you into Oblivion because you can't stop me while your collection of assault rifles is busy emulating a squad of novice stormtroopers.
Which of those sounds like it's going to win games to you?
Can you try not to speak gibberish, please and thank you.
That has exactly NOTHING to do with it, and you know it. Its more about forcing some spread. It doesn't mean that if fires all over the damn screen, its about forcing SOME parity between spead damage weapons and pin-point/hitscan....as well as increasing TTK.5
Because right now there is none.
This person is on the right track.
Yokaiko, on 12 April 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:
Can you try not to speak gibberish, please and thank you.
He has no real arguments to present. As such, did you expect anything better?
1453 R, on 12 April 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:
Would I find it particularly entertaining to run all missiles all day erry day? Nah, not really. In truth I'd probably just go play a bunch more Pillars of Eternity and poke at MWO when I'm in the mood for a missile massacre. Which is what a lot of folks would do, I imagine, if they logged onto MechWarrior Online one day and found out that every 'Mechbay maintenance technician, every ordinance specialist, every targeting software calibration engineer, and every 'Mechwarrior in the entirety of the BattleTech universe had suddenly and permanently gone both nearsighted and cross-eyed. Y'know...like this.
Is that really what we want our MWO matches to look like? Because it'd be hysterical the first time, hilarious the second, funny the third, mildly amusing the fourth, and then would drop off really quick from there.
That's a funny video. But, your argument is still just hyperbole.
18
MauttyKoray, on 11 April 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:
