315 replies to this topic

[BFalcon]

RoyalWave, on 28 June 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

I'm going to guess the number of matches where people adhere to zellbrigen is somewhere in the 0.001% range.

*shrug* then, If the sides are uneven to keep things more realistic, they'll lose. A close-in brawl strongly favours the IS lances - a clanner (both the mech and the mechwarrior) are better suited to longer-range duels.

[Jess Hazen]

and lets not forget the world.

[MC Hammer]

Make the dirty clan scum play 2-3 mechs short, that might even the playing field

[BFalcon]

Jess Hazen, on 28 June 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

wow that is quite condesending even for a bitter old IS hypocrit.

sounds like hes just mad at what time period they picked to design the game around.

To be fair, and I don't agree with what he says (although there is a grain of truth in there), he may just be fed up with all the clan threads that have cropped up - despite the clans being what... 9 months away?

I know I'm getting fed up with them already... and I'm partly PRO-clan (albeit Warden).

[Jess Hazen]

MC Hammer, on 28 June 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Make the dirty clan scum play 2-3 mechs short, that might even the playing field

we will bid low for your lance/company just to humiliate you

[Lightdragon]

just speaking from experience, every mechwarrior game ive played, even some TT and TW games players i faced chose clans because the tech was supposedly better and they found it easier to roleplay with the clans boring rituals but they soon found out that battle value is a major ***** killer on tabletop as a clanner, 1 timberwolf would equate to 1-2 assault class mechs almost makes ya feel sorry for the poor ******, but also they chose to remain ignorant of the battletech universe and didnt even know the difference between wardens and crusaders

[BFalcon]

Jess Hazen, on 28 June 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

we will bid low for your lance/company just to humiliate you

That's the spirit!

Lightdragon, on 28 June 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

just speaking from experience, every mechwarrior game ive played, even some TT and TW games players i faced chose clans because the tech was supposedly better and they found it easier to roleplay with the clans boring rituals but they soon found out that battle value is a major ***** killer on tabletop as a clanner, 1 timberwolf would equate to 1-2 assault class mechs almost makes ya feel sorry for the poor ******, but also they chose to remain ignorant of the battletech universe and didnt even know the difference between wardens and crusaders

I've encountered the same, to be honest - I think they had more objection to your "all they attract" rather than perhaps "tend to attract".

1 Clan mech tends to equate, in firepower and heat capability, to an IS mech one catagory higher, I've found as a rough guide.

[Temu]

when clans hit the stage.. the tech seemed amazing.. lighter, longer range, smaller, etc. and the first engagements they dominated. BUT once the IS understood how the clans operated, they started to turn the tide some. IS kicked in after the battle of Tukayyid, and the tech and tactics for IS is impressive. Clan doesn't have access/use alternate ammo's, Null Sig systems, C3 computers. MRM's for starters.

Clan Bidding In game... simple idea... penalty to xp and credits for fielding 12 mechs... mabye even out at 0% change at 8 mechs, and bonus for every mech short after that. Harder change... possible ADDITIONAL penalty if two clanners fire on same mech unless IS breaks clan rules first (chances are the rule will be broke within first few seconds of engagement)

[Vaux]

BFalcon, on 28 June 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Then I suggest you avoid the clans and stick to fighting IS mechs if you don't like the challenge.

There are some of us who do - especially when it's possible to not only limit clan mech purchases to clan units (or make them substantially cheaper for those units), but also then to limit the number of clan unit members allowed into the same side vs a larger number of IS mechs. It would THEN be to their own advantage to use the duelling rules of the clans to avoid a massed brawl, which the outnumbered clanners would lose.

Please...Dueling rules? All of that is probably unworkable. The roleplayers and old timers(I'm one) need to realize that most players in this game are going to be just looking for a new FPS that has big robots. They aren't looking for Clan honor protocol and all of the rest of the Battletech lore. I want to see as much of that stuff as anyone, but only to the point were it starts to turn off those that are new to all of this. If a new player comes in and sees too much of that stuff they are going to go play Hawken or something. I personally don't want to see MWO turn into a Battletech geezers circle jerk.

[Joseph Mallan]

RoyalWave, on 28 June 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Make them more expensive to field!
this is just the definition of p2w, all good clan pilots will just have premium accounts and mechs.

Less numerically
why would I want to play on the side where my impact is less? When I could go pilot a mech that gets more kills and overall has more fun? Most people would pick the more powerful (fun) side.

People love the look of clan mechs, they like the lore in some cases, and it's good to bring them in. At the same time I think everyone should realize, the canon of "just way better" should not be brought over to mwo.

The answer is really simple. Inner sphere, mech for mech, should be balanced with clan. This means "clan tech" needs to have drawbacks, not just faster, more firepower, and more armor. THey need offsetting heat, more critical space, etc. Thats the only way the clan vs IS choice will ever work. Zellbrigen coding will just create a "how to abuse this system" and really has never worked in a single game.

Give IS "lostech" aka all comstar stuff, while nerfing clan power/heat/range/speed a bit.


That way clans can have their iconic looking mechs etc and some distinctiveness tech wise, without having to be a balancing nightmare.

The "Just better" canon doesn't work in video games. There has to be balance and parity in games like this regardless of canon. I think it's already time to start getting people who want to go clan to understand they wont just be "better".

Also you will have people investing in legendary/mechs/unlocks/premiums/skins/faction unlocks etc. If all the sudden a new just better side shows up.. it's gonna cause a lot of remorse about those purchases as a madcat demolishes their worse in every way catapult or awesome.

If it weren't for my wanting to try to play my BattleCorps character through the Clan invasion as I have wrote him, I'd be signing up for Clan Wolf! or Ghost Bear. Wolf cause I like their politics and Ghost Bear because I like their "family" values and Choice of Mechs.

As of 3050 the Inner sphere has Star League LosTech available. There is not a lot that can be done without trashing the Clan tech advantage over the Inner Sphere. I personally want to be a Steiner cause I know what's coming, I know how awful it's supposed to be! I am just hoping for a small victory here and there, and to ****** a smackrel of Clan Tech here and there. You may find that many of the Inner Sphere folks are the old guard from the TT. We know what we are about to face, and I for one, look forward to trying different things to nerf the Clanners advance. If we fail we fail. After all we are supposed to, and if we cannot handle it we are not the loyalists we think we are!

Quote

And how do you explain the majority of innersphere forces having rare clan tech at the start of the invasion?

Wolf's Dragoons trained the house lords and gave Victor and I want to say Kai but I know he didn't use one an OmniMechs. The Dragoons were making Omnis under the surface of Outreach for a few years... starting sometime after they Made the first Inner Sphere Trueborn, Phelan Kell.

[RoyalWave]

Temu, on 28 June 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

when clans hit the stage.. the tech seemed amazing.. lighter, longer range, smaller, etc. and the first engagements they dominated. BUT once the IS understood how the clans operated, they started to turn the tide some. IS kicked in after the battle of Tukayyid, and the tech and tactics for IS is impressive. Clan doesn't have access/use alternate ammo's, Null Sig systems, C3 computers. MRM's for starters.

Clan Bidding In game... simple idea... penalty to xp and credits for fielding 12 mechs... mabye even out at 0% change at 8 mechs, and bonus for every mech short after that. Harder change... possible ADDITIONAL penalty if two clanners fire on same mech unless IS breaks clan rules first (chances are the rule will be broke within first few seconds of engagement)

there are some factors you get with smaller number per side for clan. One it becomes more important per pilot, so as someone playing for fun, everyone is gonna gravitate toward the side with the powerful mechs where you get a free kill or advantage. AKA why play the fodder side and not the powerful side? Also organizationally it will be easier to work together or have a team fielding the smaller number of players. AKA if I'm playing with 4 friends, the 5 of us going clan will give us more impact and make our teamwork more valuable by some ammount.

Edited by RoyalWave, 28 June 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[BFalcon]

Vaux, on 28 June 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Please...Dueling rules? All of that is probably unworkable. The roleplayers and old timers(I'm one) need to realize that most players in this game are going to be just looking for a new FPS that has big robots. They aren't looking for Clan honor protocol and all of the rest of the Battletech lore. I want to see as much of that stuff as anyone, but only to the point were it starts to turn off those that are new to all of this. If a new player comes in and sees too much of that stuff they are going to go play Hawken or something. I personally don't want to see MWO turn into a Battletech geezers circle jerk.

Nor do I, but if they have a briefing as to how the clans work and how the clan mechs are best used, it might stick. I'm not talking about hard-coding it, just saying to them "this is how best to use your tech - if you brawl, you'll likely lose."

After all, there's nothing to stop people sticking with the IS mechs - and they actually get a bit better later on, if memory serves.

Heck, ideally, I'd like to see PVE Trials all over the place with PVP Trials of Grievance for the clanners, but I realise that might put some mainstream gamers off.

Then again, would you expect to see, for example, a Klingon who cared nothing for honour and started to backstab everyone? Every setting has SOME restrictions that you should be aiming to stay within.

Anyhow, I'm going to wait and see until closer to the time.

[Alexander Diaz]

BFalcon, on 28 June 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Nor do I, but if they have a briefing as to how the clans work and how the clan mechs are best used, it might stick. I'm not talking about hard-coding it, just saying to them "this is how best to use your tech - if you brawl, you'll likely lose."

After all, there's nothing to stop people sticking with the IS mechs - and they actually get a bit better later on, if memory serves.

Heck, ideally, I'd like to see PVE Trials all over the place with PVP Trials of Grievance for the clanners, but I realise that might put some mainstream gamers off.

Then again, would you expect to see, for example, a Klingon who cared nothing for honour and started to backstab everyone? Every setting has SOME restrictions that you should be aiming to stay within.

Anyhow, I'm going to wait and see until closer to the time.

Meh. I don't think it would put anyone off. Just a game mode that requires a certain mech type. Dropship encounters require you to have 4 mechs of each class, no?

If you eventually earn a Clan mech, you can do honor duels with other Clan mech owners. I mean, Zell isn't that hard to follow. It's essentially dueling with no physicals. 1v1, you have no choice but to duel. Be a short sweet match (and possibly quite expensive).

Anyways, you don't have to worry about balance when its Clan vs Clan.

Hmmmmm, now I'm thinking of Solaris 7 matches!

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Yeah great idea, then the clans invade and FAIL
make that ... fail idea

Look at my house... if I wanted an easy fight of it would I be picking FRR?

Edited by 514yer, 28 June 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[Targetloc]

One thing to keep in mind is that all the maps we've seen so far the devs have stated there's 2 ways to win. Either by wiping out the enemy team, or completing the mission objective.

It could be balanced by having alternate objectives for the clans. If the IS has one base to defend and the clans have 2, while you don't necessarily force the clanners to split their forces you put them at a tactical disadvantage.

Or the clans may face objectives where they have to assault a more easily defended position.

MWO isn't going to be wasteland arena matches. There's nothing showing you'll have to face the Clans mech for mech, head to head right off the bat (before cross-tech and clan salvage becomes common).



They can also impose completely different 'earning' scales for the Clans. Killed 3 mediums in a Daishi? Learn2Batchall surrat, you get a -50% 'honor/c-bill' penalty. Killed 2 assaults in a Puma? Okay, you get 20% more 'honor/c-bills'. That might cover the repairs for your insanely expensive tech.


They could even implement certain penalties for not following Zellbrigen. The stricstest Zel rules you have to declare your target before engaging. They could add a keybind that 'marks' the currently targeted mech as your target, and puts a big obvious HUD marker on it for your team to let them know it's already engaged... firing on targets you haven't declared, or even worse, targets your team mates have already marked could cause severe deductions in your payout.

Edited by Targetloc, 28 June 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[$imon Osis]

RoyalWave, on 28 June 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Make them more expensive to field!
this is just the definition of p2w, all good clan pilots will just have premium accounts and mechs.

Less numerically
why would I want to play on the side where my impact is less? When I could go pilot a mech that gets more kills and overall has more fun? Most people would pick the more powerful (fun) side.

People love the look of clan mechs, they like the lore in some cases, and it's good to bring them in. At the same time I think everyone should realize, the canon of "just way better" should not be brought over to mwo.

The answer is really simple. Inner sphere, mech for mech, should be balanced with clan. This means "clan tech" needs to have drawbacks, not just faster, more firepower, and more armor. THey need offsetting heat, more critical space, etc. Thats the only way the clan vs IS choice will ever work. Zellbrigen coding will just create a "how to abuse this system" and really has never worked in a single game.

Give IS "lostech" aka all comstar stuff, while nerfing clan power/heat/range/speed a bit.


That way clans can have their iconic looking mechs etc and some distinctiveness tech wise, without having to be a balancing nightmare.

The "Just better" canon doesn't work in video games. There has to be balance and parity in games like this regardless of canon. I think it's already time to start getting people who want to go clan to understand they wont just be "better".

Also you will have people investing in legendary/mechs/unlocks/premiums/skins/faction unlocks etc. If all the sudden a new just better side shows up.. it's gonna cause a lot of remorse about those purchases as a madcat demolishes their worse in every way catapult or awesome.

you do not know what your talking about, stop talking from your @ss

[BFalcon]

Alexander Diaz, on 28 June 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Hmmmmm, now I'm thinking of Solaris 7 matches!

I know - I still say they could make a league or two and televise (ie stream - with a delay) the top matches - maybe even attract real advertising to help pay the bills.

Using in-game creds (ie not paid for) for gambling would be fun, but you might need to check for legal issues.

[Aethon]

Lightdragon, on 28 June 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

(snip)

(Edited) What I really mean to say is that my opinion varies from your own and I shall present it in a constructive manner. I shall, good sir, agree to disagree.

Edited by Mason Grimm, 28 June 2012 - 06:41 PM.
I like this version much better.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

As I said ON the FRR forum section, I DONT want to see it where the Clans invade and we ARE able to kick their ***** and they DONE drop the FRR back to 8 worlds. OR I want those of us who are FRR to EARN the right to hold them back ON OUR OWN and NOT because they have to nerf the clans.

Edited by 514yer, 28 June 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[Endless Ike]

RoyalWave, on 28 June 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

Also some of you are thinking "ideally" and not with reality in mind.

Reality is, people will take the best possible thing and abuse it in the best possible way. Especially for stuff like planety battles or anything wtih meaning. Even if you do not, you will still play against these players all the time.

So yeah, you take a credit hit if you leg that jenner with your masakari, big deal, I just conquered a planet for my clan. Creating an overpower faction, and then saying by design it's overpowered and that's good. Is just the wrong idea for an actual real online video game. So yes, in canon books clan come out of tubes and destroy IS and are honorable people blah blah blah. In MWO that's going to be everyone who wants to win and plays to win, switching to clan, destroying your stuff in coordinated alpha strikes with ERPPC boats, and conquering your planets even if they have to get "premium" months or buy special stuff.

The idea that clan is "better" end of story, or associate some cbill / xp cost to it, is just not going to work in practice.

Agree with this, and I can tell already that some of the backlash to some of the suggested forms of balancing is coming from wanna-be munchkins who aren't really looking for competition or "fun"...just god-like power. Having a bunch of munchkins is the fastest way to destroy this game.