717 replies to this topic

[Raggedyman]

RG Notch, on 12 February 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

So you're saying social pressure would make more people not power down and hide in addition to the possibility of these people being sanctioned when reported? Woot, bonus. The less people who think the can legally power down and hide in skirmish mode the better.

No
I'm saying "The rules are "15 minutes or all enemy dead", not 'till you think you should have the win', so either get off your butt and make all enemy dead (especially if you have 10 mechs to find them with) or get off your butt and get PGI to change the rules set so that the game stops and gives the victory at a different point".

I'm saying that just because someone hasn't shown their face for 30 / 45 / 60 seconds, or whatever your personal magic time-to-minor inconvenience--freaking-out-at-a-different-playing-style is doesn't mean they aren't setting up for an attack.

I'm saying that you don't have a telepathic connection to every player in the game, so you can't accurately predict their motives or moves at every given second.

I'm saying "Find Them, Kill Them, Next Round" rather than trying to bully them into having to follow your dictates as to how the game must be played.

I'm saying that if you think they are powered down then report away, but do it without rolling your groin-cannon around beforehand.

[Bloodweaver]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 February 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Key phrase 'don't shutdown'...nothing to report, you didn't break the CoC and are obviously looking to ambush someone.

As Dock said, context, that's what it boils down to, and someone who's just avoiding the enemy and running down the clock is obvious, the context can't be missed there.

Actually, no, it's not obvious. That has been made clear by multiple posters here, who have related their own experiences of attempting to ambush the remains of the enemy, and still had their dead teammates divulge their position for "wasting" their time. So, no, it is not obvious. Nobody is a telepath. And those who feel the most obstinately justified in breaking rules -and let's be clear, betraying a non-disconnected teammate's position is a violation of the rules EVEN IF his own behavior is also a violation of the rules- are more often than not the ones who are the most mistaken, because they are too myopic too see past their own all-too-quickly-made assumptions.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 12 February 2015 - 01:50 PM.

[RG Notch]

Raggedyman, on 12 February 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

No
I'm saying "The rules are "15 minutes or all enemy dead", not 'till you think you should have the win', so either get off your butt and make all enemy dead (especially if you have 10 mechs to find them with) or get off your butt and get PGI to change the rules set so that the game stops and gives the victory at a different point".

I'm saying that just because someone hasn't shown their face for 30 / 45 / 60 seconds, or whatever your personal magic time-to-minor inconvenience--freaking-out-at-a-different-playing-style is doesn't mean they aren't setting up for an attack.

I'm saying that you don't have a telepathic connection to every player in the game, so you can't accurately predict their motives or moves at every given second.

I'm saying "Find Them, Kill Them, Next Round" rather than trying to bully them into having to follow your dictates as to how the game must be played.

I'm saying that if you think they are powered down then report away, but do it without rolling your groin-cannon around beforehand.

But the results will still be same right, less people powering down and hiding to protect their KDR in skirmish matches? That's all I'm concerned with. If it's because they now refuse to play skirmish, or worry about being reported or whatever. The end result of less people powering down and hiding to protect the KDR in skirmish is the key.
So do whatever you like, I know I will.

[Bloodweaver]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 February 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Wrong, it is against the rules as they are written, there's multiple citations in this very thread from PGI showing this to be so, continuing to defend it shows you are clearly not following the rules set forth by PGI and are trying to force people to play by your rules, which is oddly enough, exactly what people defending this clear violation of the rules claim WE, the people who follow the rules, are doing.

O RLY
So, in this thread, there are citations by PGI that state "if you are the last player on your team, you must bring yourself into the enemy's view so that they don't have to make any further effort in finding you and killing you"?

I doubt that.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 12 February 2015 - 01:58 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Bloodweaver, on 12 February 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

I'm liking this not because I feel the same - it does not make my blood boil - but because you are one of the few people who've posted that dislike it when the LMS hides, and yet is mature enough to comprehend that it's not up to you how they play. Regardless of how it makes you feel. Bravo, with no sarcasm whatsoever. Wish there was more of that around here.

Also, at what point do you distinguish between "hiding because he's a *****" and "hiding so he gets the drop on the reds?" You can't. It's something you assume. Just like everyone assuming people do this to pad their KDRs - show me some evidence that this makes up for more than a miniscule minority of the occurences of a LMS hiding, and I'll listen. I've literally ONLY ever heard of players "hiding to protect their meaningless KDRs!" from... the people complaining that other players hide. Not once have I ever actually seen anyone state that they want to protect their KDRs. This is a strawman.

It's not a strawman that people pull this to protect their KDRs, there was another thread created a day or two before this one where the person who started the thread was the LMS and he stated outright and clearly, he ran off, hid and shutdown simply to protect his KDR. If it's not for their KDR, then it's to grief people, so there's little actual logic behind it either way.

And yes, it IS obvious when someone is breaking the rule here. People threatening to report you because they don't agree with your play style is a bogus threat, they will be warned to NOT do that if they actually report you. Some people are just too impatient and don't bother to look at what the LMS is actually doing that's a fact and that is NOT what we're talking about concerning the LMS, Skirmish, and shutting down to hide and avoid death. People giving away your position, that's a violation of the rules, Team Treason, report em, THEY'LL get in trouble. If they reported you for breaking the rule as LMS and you actually DID engage the enemy, Support will forego the standard 'we'll ignore it this time, don't do it again' spiel and instead warn the person they are now on probation for 90 days, I know, happened to me. Yes, I deserved it and even told Support I did what was reported and would accept whatever they deemed appropiate, TKed a Goonie who'd just removed both my arms and 1 leg on purpose, after said Goonie had cussed me out prior to firing on me without me responding to the taunts. I was put on a 90 day probation, any violations during that time would result in an immediate tempban. I never got that tempban, said Goonie is no longer part of MWO, he was forcibly shown the door by Support after repeatedly doing that to others.

Go on, start reporting people for not playing the way YOU prefer, see exactly how long it takes before Support tells you to shut it, politely of course.

Bloodweaver, please show me exactly where I said, and I'm quoting you here..

"if you are the last player on your team, you must bring yourself into the enemy's view so that they don't have to make any further effort in finding you and killing you"

Go on, find that quote by me, I can wait.....you won't find it because I never said it. You must engage the enemy, the rules don't state commit suicide, but you must engage the enemy. There ARE citations from PGI in this thread stating that, clearly.

Why are you trying to muddy the water here? Some of you are purposely doing this too, trying to make it out that those of us who want people to follow the rules are trying to force our playstyle on everyone else, when all we want is for people to follow the damn rules that PGI laid out. WE do it, we get reported if we don't, so why the hell shouldn't YOU be required to the follow those same rules. What makes YOU so special? Jerry took you out to lunch or something?

[Raggedyman]

RG Notch, on 12 February 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

But the results will still be same right, less people powering down and hiding to protect their KDR in skirmish matches? That's all I'm concerned with. If it's because they now refuse to play skirmish, or worry about being reported or whatever. The end result of less people powering down and hiding to protect the KDR in skirmish is the key.
So do whatever you like, I know I will.

No

The result is people not being allowed to play with tactics other than those that deem to be acceptable to your personal tastes.

The result is people who aren't powering down, who are using the mystic power of "hytunrhyn" and the dark art of "Poh-zish-Ning", are going to be harassed for playing by the rules and face a virtual lynch mob of Players-Who-Aren't-Psychic™.

The result is new players who want to experiment with the apparently filthy habits of Not-suicideing-when-ordered-to going "I'm going to be reported. Well I guess I must put my head on the chopping block rather than get shafted for using tactics"

The result is no more people getting busted for breaking the rules, people thinking they are being busted for breaking the rules when they aren't, a bullying into it becoming socially unacceptable to play by legitimate "Hit-And-Run" tactics (ie: Hit And Run tactics, not 'powerdown and do bog-all' clearly defined by PGI as rulebreaking breaking of rules) and (wait for it) Not More People Getting Busted For Rule Breaking!

So, your options are:
1 - Quietly report, get the rule breakers removed, and folks can play as they want without assorted groin-cannons being brought to bear on them
or
2 - Loudly threaten to report, get the same number of rule breakers removed, and help create a negative environment where any tactic beyond a socially bullied-into-enforcement narrow view is allowed.


I'm simply suggesting that 1 is more efficient and creates a more pleasant environment by not assuming anyone out of LOS for 5 seconds is a filthy muggleblooded power-downer.

You pays your money, you makes your choice.

Edited by Raggedyman, 12 February 2015 - 02:15 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 February 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

It's not a strawman that people pull this to protect their KDRs, there was another thread created a day or two before this one where the person who started the thread was the LMS and he stated outright and clearly, he ran off, hid and shutdown simply to protect his KDR. If it's not for their KDR, then it's to grief people, so there's little actual logic behind it either way.

One thread? Compared to how many posts giving OTHER reasons to hide, in this very thread alone? It is a strawman, you just don't like that reality does not support your assumptions.

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 February 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

And yes, it IS obvious when someone is breaking the rule here.

No, it is not. There is no indicator light telling you which intent a person has. There is evidence that leans towards one intention or another, but there is no obvious way for you to absolutely know anything about what is going on in another person's head. That's your ego talking, and you need to put it away, there are children here.

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 February 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

People threatening to report you because they don't agree with your play style is a bogus threat, they will be warned to NOT do that if they actually report you. [long personal anecdote]

Nothing to complain about here. I may have been reported at some point, I have no idea. I don't worry about getting reported because I know I've never done anything truly wrong, although I've made plenty of mistakes. Teammates giving away your position is a much more immediate concern.

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 February 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Bloodweaver, please show me exactly where I said, and I'm quoting you here..

"if you are the last player on your team, you must bring yourself into the enemy's view so that they don't have to make any further effort in finding you and killing you"

Go on, find that quote by me, I can wait.....you won't find it because I never said it. You must engage the enemy, the rules don't state commit suicide, but you must engage the enemy. There ARE citations from PGI in this thread stating that, clearly. [long bunch of blah]

Didn't take me long at all. See that little swept arrow in the text you quoted? All you have to do is play a little follow-the-leader...

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 February 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Joseph Mallan, on 12 February 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

Ghogiel, on 12 February 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

Joseph Mallan, on 12 February 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Then your objective is to FIND that shut down player. I see no fault in making you work for your kill. If you cannot find him then you don'rt deserve teh honor of the the kill. I see nothing wrong with making someone work a little.

Your opinion is irrelevent to the matter as PGI has already laid out the rules we all agree to play by.

And we are. That you are unable to accept those rules is what is irrelevant. They participated, they are the last man standing, taking a kill away from you is a worthy goal. It is also not against the rules as written.

Wrong, it is against the rules as they are written, there's multiple citations in this very thread from PGI showing this to be so, continuing to defend it shows you are clearly not following the rules set forth by PGI and are trying to force people to play by your rules, which is oddly enough, exactly what people defending this clear violation of the rules claim WE, the people who follow the rules, are doing.

TL;DR: Joseph Mallan said the enemy should have to actually put some effort into getting that last kill. You disagreed, and went so far as to say that PGI disagreed too. You should probably pay more attention to what you're actually saying in the future.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 12 February 2015 - 02:23 PM.

[RG Notch]

Raggedyman, on 12 February 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

No

The result is people not being allowed to play with tactics other than those that deem to be acceptable to your personal tastes.

The result is people who aren't powering down, who are using the mystic power of "hytunrhyn" and the dark art of "Poh-zish-Ning", are going to be harassed for playing by the rules and face a virtual lynch mob of Players-Who-Aren't-Psychic™.

The result is new players who want to experiment with the apparently filthy habits of Not-suicideing-when-ordered-to going "I'm going to be reported. Well I guess I must put my head on the chopping block rather than get shafted for using tactics"

The result is no more people getting busted for breaking the rules, people thinking they are being busted for breaking the rules when they aren't, a bullying into it becoming socially unacceptable to play by legitimate "Hit-And-Run" tactics (ie: Hit And Run tactics, not 'powerdown and do bog-all' clearly defined by PGI as rulebreaking breaking of rules) and (wait for it) Not More People Getting Busted For Rule Breaking!

So, your options are:
1 - Quietly report, get the rule breakers removed, and folks can play as they want without assorted groin-cannons being brought to bear on them
or
2 - Loudly threaten to report, get the same number of rule breakers removed, and help create a negative environment where any tactic beyond a socially bullied-into-enforcement narrow view is allowed.


I'm simply suggesting that 1 is more efficient and creates a more pleasant environment by not assuming anyone out of LOS for 5 seconds is a filthy muggleblooded power-downer.

You pays your money, you makes your choice.

Which one results in less people powering down and hiding to protect their precious KDR in skirmish? You can try all you want to make this about something else and insult anyone who disagrees. It doesn't change the fact that all I'm interested in less people powering down and hiding to protect their KDR in skirmish mode. So spin away to try to muddy the issue. I don't care what other people in this thread say or do. I will continue to do as I see fit within the CoC. All the strawmen in the world can't change that PGI has stated that it is acceptable to file reports about people powering down and hiding to protect their KDR. If other people want to hound folks or threaten to report, that's on them. I am only interested in having less people power down and hide to protect their KDR in skirmish mode. You'll note I'm specific about what I want. Other people can spin it into how often you need to shoot or this should be for every mode, that's for them to defend.

[Dock Steward]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 February 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Key phrase 'don't shutdown'...nothing to report, you didn't break the CoC and are obviously looking to ambush someone.

As Dock said, context, that's what it boils down to, and someone who's just avoiding the enemy and running down the clock is obvious, the context can't be missed there.

Dock, the rules are vague and they aren't at the same time, it's a catchall phrase that PGI used, 'playing in the spirit of the game' that allows for latitude on who's breaking the rules and who's actually trying to be tactically creative. It also allows them to decide that someone who's constantly PUSHING the rules but not outright breaking them needs a break, as that person is not playing 'in the spirit of the game' and is instead griefing creatively. It gives PGI the leeway to make whatever call they deem best in any situation and not have to deal with 'but it's not in the rules' that so many griefers like to defend themselves with. Goonies were great at that, and that 'spirit of the game' got many of them busted because while they didn't actually BREAK the rules, they sure as hell bent them all over the place purely to grief players, which is not 'playing in the spirit of the game'.

I actually agree somewhat with the guys who get peeved by the power-downers in Skirmish, but at the same time, I don't agree that we should start encouraging everyone to report players simply because they power down in Skirmish. I don't power down as a tactic (I'm not that creative) but I see the merit insofar as it could give you the advantage of surprise if done correctly. The idea of that creative tactic is so amusing to me, that I would hate to discourage it.

Also, people already report the dumbest stuff. I don't want to see that amplified. I only ever reported one person because of something they did in-game and that was actually because the player's name was SUPER racist. I may get really annoyed by having to hunt down that last enemy, but I do it and don't gripe. To me, hunting him down is "in the spirit" of the game. I choose to interpret PGI's phrasing that way. I just wish they didn't feel the need for wishy-washy language and just flat out said what the rules are.

[Bloodweaver]

RG Notch, on 12 February 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

Which one results in less people powering down and hiding to protect their precious KDR in skirmish? You can try all you want to make this about something else and insult anyone who disagrees. It doesn't change the fact that all I'm interested in less people powering down and hiding to protect their KDR in skirmish mode. So spin away to try to muddy the issue. I don't care what other people in this thread say or do. I will continue to do as I see fit within the CoC. All the strawmen in the world can't change that PGI has stated that it is acceptable to file reports about people powering down and hiding to protect their KDR. If other people want to hound folks or threaten to report, that's on them. I am only interested in having less people power down and hide to protect their KDR in skirmish mode. You'll note I'm specific about what I want. Other people can spin it into how often you need to shoot or this should be for every mode, that's for them to defend.

So long as you're actually reporting, and not typing out your (living) teammate's position in all-chat for the enemy to see, there's no problem.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"it is acceptable to file reports about people powering down and hiding to protect their KDR."

How do you know they are powering down to protect their KDR?

And really, since you claim such psychic power, guess how much I care about KDR?

[Bloodweaver]

Fenrisulvyn, on 12 February 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

"it is acceptable to file reports about people powering down and hiding to protect their KDR."

How do you know they are powering down to protect their KDR?

And really, since you claim such psychic power, guess how much I care about KDR?

Indeed. I had one team-treasoner accuse me of protecting my KDR. My KDR is 0.68

[Dock Steward]

Bloodweaver, on 12 February 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

Indeed. I had one team-treasoner accuse me of protecting my KDR. My KDR is 0.68

Admittedly off topic: If it wasn't for the last stat reset, my KDR would probably be around that. Damn, the first few months of this game were rough for me. Without a stat wipe, I might have never climbed out of the hole I dug myself.

[Spawnsalot]

Fantastic. I go away for dinner and come back to a 150+ post threadsplosion, where everyone is still arguing with each other about completely different situations.

Time to Kanye this sucker. *ahem*

"Now I'mma let you finish but...

Just so we're all clear:

Powering down in Conquest because you're going to win on points as long as you stay alive, no one has an issue with that.

Powering down in Conquest while losing, utterly useless but the other team can still cap you out with minimal fuss.

Returning to your base for a last stand with turret back up in Assault, no one should have any issue with that.

Powering down in Assault because you pussed out/ left your team to die/ got ignored by the other team - moderately useless but not a huge biggie because the other objective in the match is to cap the base and doing this usually isn't an issue. Unless you're hiding from a crippled Jenner or something....

Powering down in Skirmish to get the drop on someone, it's all good - you're powering up behind someone to murder them.

It would be wise to inform your team that you are doing this.

Parking yourself in a corner and powering down to stare at a cliff texture like its a Monet for the remainder of a match, you're being a ponce and you're going to be reported.

Running as far as you can from the enemy for the remainder of a match, with clearly no intention of fighting any more is not making the enemy team work for the kill, you're being a ponce and you're going to be reported.

Doing what Kjudoon was doing here:

Kjudoon, on 12 February 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

I just spent a match where the last 5 minutes was me and a Thunderbolt in a hide and seek tango because one of us was going to die real easy. Not a shot was fired for almost 4 minutes because we were trying to get advantage on each other. Now, I'd be reported because I was not playing stupid and charging. It was on assault.

Assault or not, you're still doing something useful and stand-offs like that are good and tense, no one should have an issue with that.

Calling out an AFK/DC players location, I don't think anyone has issue with that.

Calling out a players location who is still clearly trying to engage the enemy, you're being a ponce and you're going to be reported.

Many ongoing arguments in this thread have one person citing one situation with the other arguing about a different one entirely.

I may have missed some obscure situations off here, I'm sure there'll be a rules lawyer here soon to tell me one I've missed and because of that I'm wrong etc.

Basically, don't be a ponce. You know when you're being a ponce and everyone with at least two firing neurons knows it too and will respond in kind.

...of all time!"

OK, you guys can continue wailing and gnashing now.

[Raggedyman]

RG Notch, on 12 February 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

Which one results in less people powering down and hiding to protect their precious KDR in skirmish?

In both cases if you report them then they will get dealt with by PGI, so by getting rid of people breaking the rules you will get less people breaking the rules.

By ordering people to come forth and be executed you might, possibly, maybe get a couple less people powering down, but at the cost of a lot more bad blood.

RG Notch, on 12 February 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

You can try all you want to make this about something else and insult anyone who disagrees. It doesn't change the fact that all I'm interested in less people powering down and hiding to protect their KDR in skirmish mode.

For me it's about people dictating how others should play their game, within the confines of the rules set.

RG Notch, on 12 February 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

So spin away to try to muddy the issue.

Check my posts and tell me where I'm spinning.

RG Notch, on 12 February 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

I don't care what other people in this thread say or do. I will continue to do as I see fit within the CoC. All the strawmen in the world can't change that PGI has stated that it is acceptable to file reports about people powering down and hiding to protect their KDR.

Yes, as per my post on Page 20 where I reiterated that after getting direct confirmation from PGI.

RG Notch, on 12 February 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

If other people want to hound folks or threaten to report, that's on them. I am only interested in having less people power down and hide to protect their KDR in skirmish mode. You'll note I'm specific about what I want. Other people can spin it into how often you need to shoot or this should be for every mode, that's for them to defend.

I'm also very specific about what I would like: I would like people to stop bullying other people into confirming to some narrow view of acceptable tactics. If you think someone has powered down rather than positioning or using hit-and-run then report away, it's perfectly possible to do so without going 'present you're self now or be reported'.
If nothing else: not giving them warning of a report means they will get cycled out of the game quicker than by giving them notice.

[Dock Steward]

Spawnsalot, on 12 February 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

[summarized] ponce

I had to look that up. Possibly my new favorite word. Nice summary by the way. Sincerely.

[Raggedyman]

Bloodweaver, on 12 February 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

Indeed. I had one team-treasoner accuse me of protecting my KDR. My KDR is 0.68

I'm currently at the heady-heights of 0.47, mostly due to detecting the enemy with my face.

[PurpleNinja]

Does anyone want cookies?

[RG Notch]

Fenrisulvyn, on 12 February 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

"it is acceptable to file reports about people powering down and hiding to protect their KDR."

How do you know they are powering down to protect their KDR?

And really, since you claim such psychic power, guess how much I care about KDR?

How so ever does PGI determine if some TKed accidently or not? Apparently they've been operating using telepathy all this time.

[Raggedyman]

Spawnsalot, on 12 February 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

Calling out an AFK/DC players location, I don't think anyone has issue with that.

Technically a breach of the rules, so whilst people may not have an issue with it treat with caution as you could get busted for it.

PurpleNinja, on 12 February 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

Does anyone want cookies?