434 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

CocoaJin, on 01 March 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

What heights are that? We are operating at essentially ground level...so unless we are at high-altitude locales, atmospheric drag is going to be at its worst at ground level.

With most maps displaying gravity levels approximating(and frequently greater than) Earth's, it wouldn't be unreasonable or surprising to expect atmospheric drag to be roughly equal to, if not, significantly greater than Earth's.

It's all about air density...and that's going to be greatest at or near the surface. We'd have to be JJing thousands of feet/meters above the surface before air density diminishes significantly.

I don't think you got the point.

At best, we're talking about a distance of 720 meters (straight up and down). Just how much difference can atmospheric drag really cause to a 25/100-ton object with a humanoid shape.

Edited by Mystere, 01 March 2015 - 06:53 PM.

[Spr1ggan]

Koniving, on 01 March 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Which one might add... that the force of gravity in MWO is after several tests:
Approximately between 29 to 32 meters/sec.
Earth's gravity is 9.807 meters/sec.
The stated gravities of the different maps are: (where 1 represent's Earth's gravity)
HPG: 1.2
Alpine Peaks: 1.1
Mining Collective: 1.0
Canyon Network: 0.9
Caustic Valley: 1.2
Forest Colony: 0.8
Frozen City: 0.9
River City: 1.0 (which is impressive considering it's a moon. Look in the sky to that big planet!)
Tourmaline Desert: 0.9
Viridian Bog: 1.0
Crimson Strait: 1.1
Terra Therma: 1.1
Boreal Vault: 0.9
Hellebore Springs: 1.2
Sulfurous Rift: 1.0

The true gravity factor on all maps?
Best case:
1 : 9.807 = 2.9570714795554 : 29
2.957 times the Earth's gravity.

Worst case:
1 : 9.807 = 3.2629754257163 : 32
3.263 times the Earth's gravity.

It's kinda why fall damage had to be adjusted multiple times. And why poptarts don't have that physics reaction you'd expect, where a heavy object full of resistance to motion would resist the downward pull while the inertia dissipated, hover in the air after the lift is gone, and then slowly begin to accelerate "Past the window, downward." (Monty Python reference), giving you a nice fair window to shoot an enemy poptarter down.

The reason for this, as given by Sean Lang in the past: "It didn't feel right to fall so slowly." Well, that's because this isn't a human-sized first person shooter, the Victor in MWO is over 15 meters tall!.

That's taller than the largest tank ever built. (1914, Russia)


Each wheel is only 9 meters tall. The tank itself according to specifications is 12 meters wide.

The heaviest tank ever created, 188 tons, is only 10.2 meters in length.


The point I'm making, is if you ever saw something large and heavy fall after it defied gravity by rocket or somesuch, even if it only made it to 20 meters it will take about a second to three to lose all inertia and shift downward, and for 20 meters slightly over 2 more seconds to hit the ground.

Even a box of 6 gallons of bleach will do the mid-air stop when hurled almost directly upward and allowed to fall as the upward inertia is removed and the downward inertia begins.

(Bringing me to the second point, pop tarts wouldn't be a problem if we had a nominal level of gravity).

The Germans at one point wanted to build this lol.

http://en.wikipedia....r_P._1000_Ratte

[Soy]

Kilo 40, on 01 March 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

ITT: people who don't remember how crappy game play was with poptarting.

Game was better with R&R. Game was better with less fractured playerbase (aka not 47 diff queues). Game was also better without ghost heat. Game was better before consumables. Yada.

Games better with CW, as awfully hollow and trite as it is. Games better with Clantech. Games better with more maps. Games better with VOIP. Yada yada.

Etc etc ad naseum.

Take the good with the bad... regardless of what you perceive as 'good' or 'bad' on a subjective micro level isn't really important................. overall, the game has more content now and more balance................... as a result the skillfloor has been lowered since gouging whales stopped being the economic model.................. but it is what it is.......... wave 3 looks like a relatively equal value to the previous waves, going by objectivity of the mech stats on paper... also relatively equal if you just take a stab in the dark based on current meta and how these mechs might function in MWO...

Also, poptarting still exists... I don't even...

If I paid for Bishop's Gladiator package, would he shut the **** up then? Rhetorical question of course.

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 06:53 PM.

[TELEFORCE]

I would love it if the Gargoyle could get its movement profile reduced to "Large". At 80 tons, it's barely a traditional assault 'mech and more like a heavy 'mech. It doesn't need a "Huge" movement profile despite its size.

I also wouldn't mind seeing jump jets getting a boost for 'mechs that have traditionally mounted them. Perhaps give a jump jet boost quirk to the Summoner, Executioner, Nova, and Highlander, among others.

[Bishop Steiner]

Fate 6, on 01 March 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

When people don't agree with Bishop that's just what he does. In his world he is always right and everyone else is dumb. In his world he is also Lord High Commander of the Hypocrites.

Lol. Nope. In my world when people present well reasoned arguments, I listen. Which is why half my contact list is people I once locked horns with.

But when people consistently post nothing, personal attacks and flamebait? Yup, I ignore them. Is it possible I miss some small gem of wisdom along the way? Yup. Is that gem worth listening to them act like mouthbreathers and froth at the lips along the way? Usually not.

TELEFORCE, on 01 March 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

I would love it if the Gargoyle could get its movement profile reduced to "Large". At 80 tons, it's barely a traditional assault 'mech and more like a heavy 'mech. It doesn't need a "Huge" movement profile despite its size.

I also wouldn't mind seeing jump jets getting a boost for 'mechs that have traditionally mounted them. Perhaps give a jump jet boost quirk to the Summoner, Executioner, Nova, and Highlander, among others.

Very true, though secondary to the point of the topic. I would simply like to see some serious stats on the Executioner, or have some reason to believe it will somehow end up different than the Gladiator, Highlander, etc. 120 bucks is a chunk of change for a video game. I've bought enough lead balloons already to feel a desire to be more selective.

[Fate 6]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

Game was better with R&R. Game was better with less fractured playerbase (aka not 47 diff queues). Game was also better without ghost heat. Game was better before consumables. Yada.

Games better with CW, as awfully hollow and trite as it is. Games better with Clantech. Games better with more maps. Games better with VOIP. Yada yada.

Etc etc ad naseum.

Take the good with the bad... regardless of what you perceive as 'good' or 'bad' on a subjective micro level isn't really important................. overall, the game has more content now and more balance................... as a result the skillfloor has been lowered since gouging whales stopped being the economic model.................. but it is what it is.......... wave 3 looks like a relatively equal value to the previous waves, going by objectivity of the mech stats on paper... also relatively equal if you just take a stab in the dark based on current meta and how these mechs might function in MWO...

Also, poptarting still exists... I don't even...

If I paid for Bishop's Gladiator package, would he shut the **** up then? Rhetorical question of course.

If anything Wave III looks like the best value of any package. None of the mechs will be DoA regardless of if they are tier 1. The Executioner will, at the very least, be an Atlas upgrade (basically a Boar's Head IIC), and more than likely will be tier 2 at worst.

[CocoaJin]

I'd like to see JJs have more kick initially. Give them a short spool up where they behave like now, but after about .5sec give them a short kick that actually accelerates the mech to about 10-15% over their max sprint speed, gradually decelerating to current flight speeds over the duration of the burn.

During the first .75sec of the burn, the initial kick could either create a small and brief heat generation or not allow for cooling. This gives spam-feathering of JJs a heat penalty. It would also provide a bit more of mobility boost to JJ users without encouraging Pop-tarts.

[Bishop Steiner]

CocoaJin, on 01 March 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

I'd like to see JJs have more kick initially. Give them a short spool up where they behave like now, but after about .5sec give them a short kick that actually accelerates the mech to about 10-15% over their max sprint speed, gradually decelerating to current flight speeds over the duration of the burn.

During the first .75sec of the burn, the initial kick could either create a small and brief heat generation or not allow for cooling. This gives spam-feathering of JJs a heat penalty. It would also provide a bit more of mobility boost to JJ users without encouraging Pop-tarts.

starting to think I do need to merge this with my JJ thread.....

[Sjorpha]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 05:48 PM, said:

simple answer? Take a heck of a lot more work to program than my suggestion? It would be great to have, and could even work well in conjunction, but we got to realize that with a small cash strapped studio, there is what we want, and what we can realistically get.

I agree with you on the whole issue of jumpjets being made actually jumpy again.

Just wanted to point out that basic level of gravity is normally very easy to program, in most engines it's just a couple variables to set. It isn't any different to set a new level of gravity than it was the first time, as has evidently been done at least once since there is actually gravity, and a physics engine, in the game. So that particular request should not be a problem of complexity or workload in terms of programming at all, the problem might be more on a balancin and testing level, to make sure low gravity don't turn certain mechs OP or cause other problems.

I personally think it is fun to shoot in mid air, I would prefer if it was still possible even with stronger jumpjets. So I am more in favor of big less controllable jumps/leaps to balance poptarting than more screenshake. So poptarting up and down behind the same cover wouldn't work because the jumps would simply be too big and have to muuch directional momentum for that, but you could still shoot rather accurately in the air.

[Soy]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

starting to think I do need to merge this with my JJ thread.....

Well maybe you should've thought about that before you just started injecting your agenda into every topic you **** out.

You show your hand way too much; bad pokerface.

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 07:13 PM.

[Fate 6]

Ozealot, on 01 March 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

It isn't even about him. He's hurting this game with what he does. He's hurting the community with what he does. I'm not referring to this thread but to nearly everything he does regarding MWO. He's encouraging others to follow his example. He's just using people who are gullible for his own endeavours. And these usually don't help anyone but his self-esteem or the number of likes of his yes-men or the people who actually really agree with the opinion he pretends to have. Despicable.

Gladly PGI doesn't seem to be so easily fooled as could be seen after his last mob organization to alter the implementation of the Urbanmech to his personal wishes. After White Knighting for a long time (see his signature) he suddenly turns 360 and argues against PGI and tries to hurt the Wave 3 sale.

That's for sure coincidence.

People already got banned for less from the forums and even the game. Bad day and a TK plus following tough talk is more likely to happen (and forgivable) than this intentional subversive behaviour of his.


EDIT: typo

I agree.

You should have seen him in the quirk pass#2 thread though, he was a ragelord. It took at least 6 people constantly telling him to chill out for about 6 pages and even then I'm not sure if he did.

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

when people consistently post nothing, personal attacks and flamebait? Yup, I ignore them. Is it possible I miss some small gem of wisdom along the way? Yup. Is that gem worth listening to them act like mouthbreathers and froth at the lips along the way? Usually not.

You made the thread about yourself and then when someone brings that up you do EXACTLY what you claim to hate about others. If you don't want people to talk about YOU and instead talk about the GAME you might want to consider that before you write the title of the thread.

[CocoaJin]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

starting to think I do need to merge this with my JJ thread.....

Meh, let it ride. They are technically different facets of the same problem. A little cross-pollination is expected.

Edited by CocoaJin, 01 March 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[Soy]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

Very true, though secondary to the point of the topic. I would simply like to see some serious stats on the Executioner, or have some reason to believe it will somehow end up different than the Gladiator, Highlander, etc. 120 bucks is a chunk of change for a video game. I've bought enough lead balloons already to feel a desire to be more selective.

Ozealot, on 01 March 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

Executioner is a Gladiator so why should the same Mech end up different than... itself? Maybe you were just, quote: "breathing through your mouth and froth at the lips" while writing?

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

BISHOP -

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 07:17 PM.

[Deathlike]

I'll just say this.

It should behoove PGI to reevaluate badly implemented ideas such as movement archetypes, Hoverjets™, and various other subsystems over time... if only so that it would quell the complaining.

The thing is, I'm sometimes convinced that PGI only does this "at times" to sell more product... which is technically OK, but occasionally dishonest when something as broken as movement archetypes stop even Light mechs within its tracks. It's the kind of attention to detail and refinement that PGI lacks and takes too much time to revisit... it took a while for PGI to revisit the simple concept of "fall damage" when back in the day they added such damage to the detriment of Light mechs... eating up valuable leg armor in the simple act of "just moving".

When such details are not addressed ASAP (like say... the mechlab in UI 2.0), you're just annoying people more and more over the long term... and thus clearly never addressing the issues until what some would say... is too late.

With that said... I wouldn't go about it like this (well, with drama and all), but I've tried to be constructive as possible in all matters... I feel that I've inevitably wasted my time and effort in such causes, so it is easier for me to be more cynical, pointed, and just more direct about how I feel about things.

Hey... ignoring people has swimmingly worked well for PGI in the past. Why should you or anyone else be different? The vocal minority is still the minority, and I'm just a guy. What the hell do I know?

Good luck with your quest Bishop. I simply don't see it going anywhere unless it genuinely affects PGI's bottom line. Maybe they will fix it... but some other important detail will get the shaft. Something always does.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 March 2015 - 07:24 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 01 March 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

I agree with you on the whole issue of jumpjets being made actually jumpy again.

Just wanted to point out that basic level of gravity is normally very easy to program, in most engines it's just a couple variables to set. It isn't any different to set a new level of gravity than it was the first time, as has evidently been done at least once since there is actually gravity, and a physics engine, in the game. So that particular request should not be a problem of complexity or workload in terms of programming at all, the problem might be more on a balancin and testing level, to make sure low gravity don't turn certain mechs OP or cause other problems.

I personally think it is fun to shoot in mid air, I would prefer if it was still possible even with stronger jumpjets. So I am more in favor of big less controllable jumps/leaps to balance poptarting than more screenshake. So poptarting up and down behind the same cover wouldn't work because the jumps would simply be too big and have to muuch directional momentum for that, but you could still shoot rather accurately in the air.

Valid counterpoint. As has been stated numerous times, I believe extending the shake into the down drop, but not throughout the entirety of it, give a happy medium.... and one that would obviate a lot of the nerfs. Because it still gives a jump sniper a shot window, but it does require an investment, and has a higher risk to reward ratio than during the height of Poptart mania. That said, I can still poptart with "simulated" reticle shake extended, as it's pretty easy to time and see if you could do it with an extra .5 to 1 second of thrust added.

I do think your idea could work too, though I am worried it would be easier to exploit, and PGis usual reaction/overreaction speed makes me leery of opening up the old Meta again, potentially.

But I certainly do not agree with the folks who want to lock out all weapons fire while jumping. Poptarting IS a valid tactic, and important even for some chassis to really shine. Locking out weapons fire entirely directly nerfs the Summoner (more) and Vindicator, which are the only two really good Jump Snipe chassis, IMO, atm. (others can do it, but these two still do it rather well). It would make my VND-1R rather sad, lol.

Big thing is a number of mechs, particularly assaults are currently pre-nerfed, because of the current state of JJs. And seeing them more useful for in and out brawling, etc would be nice too. Anyone who claims the VTR, for instance is anywhere near as effective as it was before (not just talking potarting, but all roles) I think is delusional, ya know? And the HGN is just painful atm.

Sure would like to see that change.

[Fate 6]

Ozealot, on 01 March 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

Executioner is a Gladiator so why should the same Mech end up different than... itself? Maybe you were just, quote: "breathing through your mouth and froth at the lips" while writing?

Not to mention we actually have a lot of info on the Executioner. It appears to have meh hitboxes, but we have the Atlas to compare to and the Atlas is decently survivable. In terms of heat we have a lot of Clan mechs like the Nova/Timber to compare various builds like LAZORs and Gaussvomit to, respectively. We know what current JJs are like, and while they suck, we do have the DWF-S for a general comparison (and they are still useful for getting around terrain). The ONLY info we don't have is how MASC will be implemented.

Bishop, if you don't like the mech don't get it, but we do have a large amount of information to make a decision on.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 01 March 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

I'll just say this.

It should behoove PGI to reevaluate badly implemented ideas such as movement archetypes, Hoverjets™, and various other subsystems over time... if only so that it would quell the complaining.

The thing is, I'm sometimes convinced that PGI only does this "at times" to sell more product... which is technically OK, but occasionally dishonest when something as broken as movement archetypes stop even Light mechs within its tracks. It's the kind of attention to detail and refinement that PGI lacks and takes too much time to revisit... it took a while for PGI to revisit the simple concept of "fall damage" when back in the day they added such damage to the detriment of Light mechs... eating up valuable leg armor in the simple act of "just moving".

When such details are not addressed ASAP (like say... the mechlab in UI 2.0), you're just annoying people more and more over the long term... and thus clearly never addressing the issues until what some would say... is too late.

With that said... I wouldn't go about it like this (well, with drama and all), but I've tried to be constructive as possible in all matters... I feel that I've inevitably wasted my time and effort in such causes, so it is easier for me to be more cynical, pointed, and just more direct about how I feel about things.

Hey... ignoring people has swimmingly worked well for PGI in the past. Why should you or anyone else be different? The vocal minority is still the minority, and I'm just a guy. What the hell do I know?

Good luck with your quest Bishop. I simply don't see it going anywhere unless it genuinely affects PGI's bottom line. Maybe they will fix it... but some other important detail will get the shaft. Something always does.

All too true. Which is why I am having fun at my own expense with this post. That some people can't comprehend that, well says more about them, than me.

But as you say, PGI will deal with it when they deal with it..or more likely never, lol. Yet oddly enough, I have gotten Russ' attention enough times, that hey, one can hope, eh?

[Mcgral18]

Ozealot, on 01 March 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

Executioner is a Gladiator so why should the same Mech end up different than... itself? Maybe you were just, quote: "breathing through your mouth and froth at the lips" while writing?

Pretty obvious he meant Mr Gargles.

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 March 2015 - 07:26 PM.

[MavRCK]

DTF Kev, on 01 March 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

Well they shouldn't of completely destroyed it as an option. Small adjustments to JJs and ballistics / PPCs would of been fine.

But they crippled JJs, ruined PPCs, and added firing mechanic to gauss.

They had nerfed SRM dmg from 2.5 to 2.25 --- messed up the hitreg for 1.5 years of SRMs -- added ghost heat to SRM4-6s in groups of 6.. so when mechs like the ddc or splatcat did get up close to a poptart, they didn't do enough dmg...

Plus, charge mechanic to gauss meant it was iffy for brawling... so people had to use ac10s or ac20s... but then AC heat plus 2 LL heat and / or heat from pulse lasers - medium lasers plus SRMs (which didnt do anything) meant you over-heated too...

Series of terrible balancing and game mechanic decision.. cough paul... lead to a long time of 1.5 years of frustration and stagnation...

Now our beloved Victors and Highlanders, which have been known to jump jet, are hover craft... Joy balancing.. cough paul..

[Soy]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

Valid counterpoint. As has been stated numerous times, I believe extending the shake into the down drop, but not throughout the entirety of it, give a happy medium.... and one that would obviate a lot of the nerfs. Because it still gives a jump sniper a shot window, but it does require an investment, and has a higher risk to reward ratio than during the height of Poptart mania. That said, I can still poptart with "simulated" reticle shake extended, as it's pretty easy to time and see if you could do it with an extra .5 to 1 second of thrust added.

I do think your idea could work too, though I am worried it would be easier to exploit, and PGis usual reaction/overreaction speed makes me leery of opening up the old Meta again, potentially.

But I certainly do not agree with the folks who want to lock out all weapons fire while jumping. Poptarting IS a valid tactic, and important even for some chassis to really shine. Locking out weapons fire entirely directly nerfs the Summoner (more) and Vindicator, which are the only two really good Jump Snipe chassis, IMO, atm. (others can do it, but these two still do it rather well). It would make my VND-1R rather sad, lol.

Big thing is a number of mechs, particularly assaults are currently pre-nerfed, because of the current state of JJs. And seeing them more useful for in and out brawling, etc would be nice too. Anyone who claims the VTR, for instance is anywhere near as effective as it was before (not just talking potarting, but all roles) I think is delusional, ya know? And the HGN is just painful atm.

Sure would like to see that change.

Yes, word. That's a respectable post from you, particularly your attitude.

Cept the part where you called the Summoner a "really good jump sniper", seriously what the **** are you smoking. I want some. Lots.

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 07:28 PM.