716 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Instead of nerfing clans into oblivion (shades of the victor nerf back in the day) and offering single digit quirks as a consolation prize...I have a suggestion, please hear me out.

I think that rather than piss off a large number of the people playing clans, why not bring in the LFEs (http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light) for the IS?

This would basically stop all the crying about engines, it would also have to come with some drawbacks as well. Quirks on the IS side would need to be adjusted, heavily, without doubt. However, this offers an option that allows mechs to be on roughly equal footing. As the timeline advances, this tech would come about in the primary wave of IS Omnimechs anyway, so why not offer it as an available option now?

I think the way this should work would be that if you equip a LFE into your battlemech, you should have the endo/ferro slots locked. For the sake of grins and giggles, you can turn those off/on, but you cannot dictate where the slots are taken up. That way, you get a pseudo-omnimech that would allow IS to have similar functionality choice versus the Clans (which would still be unable to change engines, at all...).

Thoughts?

Edited by Gyrok, 17 March 2015 - 05:39 AM.

[zagibu]

But how are we going to whine about OP clans if you balance them properly?

[El Bandito]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

Instead of nerfing clans into oblivion (shades of the victor nerf back in the day) and offering single digit quirks as a consolation prize...I have a suggestion, please hear me out.

I think that rather than piss off a large number of the people playing clans, why not bring in the LFEs (http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light) for the IS?

This would basically stop all the crying about engines, it would also have to come with some drawbacks as well. Quirks on the IS side would need to be adjusted, heavily, without doubt. However, this offers an option that allows mechs to be on roughly equal footing. As the timeline advances, this tech would come about in the primary wave of IS Omnimechs anyway, so why not offer it as an available option now?

I think the way this should work would be that if you equip a LFE into your battlemech, you should have the endo/ferro slots locked. For the sake of grins and giggles, you can turn those off/on, but you cannot dictate where the slots are taken up. That way, you get a pseudo-omnimech that would allow IS to have similar functionality choice versus the Clans (which would still be unable to change engines, at all...).

Thoughts?

The LFE was still in the prototype stage in 3058, only went on production on 3062, and IS mechs began to use it around 3065. And PGI is only willing to move the timeline to 3052 any time soon. So no, I do not wish to wait for 2 or more years at least, until LFE is introduced to IS tech, while Clanners get merry with their twice as durable XL engine.

Either PGI breaks canon (causing floodgates of requests for other futuristic item requests), introduces the LFE and obsoletes the regular Std and XL engines before it, or they respect the timeline and make us wait for unbearable amount of time.

http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light

Edited by El Bandito, 17 March 2015 - 12:23 PM.

[Nemytis]

Good point Gyrok!

[Tennex]

Its a necessary evil.

Loosing 10-20% speed is a whole hell of a lot better than straight up dying for losing a side torso

[Rivenstar]

Gyrok, thanks for trying to implement a viable option for balance that might seem outside the box type thinking. I am for anything that can truly balance the game and hope the minds at PGI can develop some sort of option that is workable.

Edited by Rivenstar, 17 March 2015 - 06:00 AM.

[Mechteric]

Nah this nerf I'm OK with, its totally in line with BattleTech's loss of side torso XL engine crits.


Perhaps it also paves the way to allow more customization later such as being able to add/remove Ferro/Endo so some of the lesser clan mechs get a bit of a boost.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

As I've said before, I'd rather them just remove Speed Tweak from most of the Clan mechs anyway.
This nerf shouldnt happen because the mechs shouldnt be moving that fast to begin with

[Karl Streiger]

You (OP) really think the LFE will change stuff? Do you really believe that will be a good option?
WE the IS will blow you into oblivion as soon as we get hands on the LFEs - its again "free" tonnage for more weapons/ammunition/heatsinks/speed - and clans - clans get nothing.

better to get this "side torso" destruction nerf on the road and adapt - its not perfect but its a start

[Sjorpha]

Introducing a better engine would render the existing engines obselete, that would be incredibly bad design.

There should be no obselete equipment in a PvP game, everything should be useful, it is bad enough that single heatsinks are useless, and that ferro is worse than endo. We need a balance where no upgrades or equipment are no brainers.

What's needed is to balance the existing engines, IS XLs should have some advantage that makes up for the extre crit slots and side torso death. The obvious is that they could be lighter.

it would makes a lot of sense IMO that:
Std = heaviest and most resilient.
Clan XL = lighter, more vulnerable.
IS XL= lightest, most vulnerable

Edited by Sjorpha, 17 March 2015 - 06:09 AM.

[Ens]

Builds that normally don´t work good on XL Engines would greatly benefit from LFEs.

Imagine an Atlas with LFE...from Zero to Hero again

Edited by Ens, 17 March 2015 - 06:25 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

How about, no.

As it stands, Clan XL engines are already operating when they shouldn't. Each torso side contains 2 Engine slots, and Engine destruction comes at the loss of 3 Engine slots, regardless of where they are located.

For the IS, this means any XL engine goes boom the moment a side torso is destroyed. For the Clans, this means they keep going even after BOTH torso sides and 4 Engine slots are destroyed. Clans ALREADY get more advantages from their XL engines then they should, and you want to complain about making them go SLOWER if they get a side torso destroyed?

There's no mention of the Clan Mechs going dead when BOTH toros sides get destroyed, AS THEY SHOULD, so stop whining about the slow down or I'm sure we can get a petition going to enforce the 3 Engine slots destroyed = dead Mech rule for the Clans as well.

[CyclonerM]

Sure, speed reduction makes sense.

However, if they introduce this penalty for damaged engines, then i want engine critical hits for both Clan and IS.

Far too many times Russ said that "this is the last of Clan nerfs" or "I do not want to nerf the Clans anymore".

Now this. And what after that? Do we need to wait until Clan 'Mechs suck (most of them anyway) until they stop?

This is really not necessary. IMHO, If Russ wants to negate the accusations of partiality (they are all IS fans after all) or listening to the whiney noobs, either he should not implement the speed reduction or implement a full engine critical damage system that impacts both IS and Clans (it would still impact Clans more..).

Kristov Kerensky, on 17 March 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

For the IS, this means any XL engine goes boom the moment a side torso is destroyed. For the Clans, this means they keep going even after BOTH torso sides and 4 Engine slots are destroyed. Clans ALREADY get more advantages from their XL engines then they should, and you want to complain about making them go SLOWER if they get a side torso destroyed?

There's no mention of the Clan Mechs going dead when BOTH toros sides get destroyed, AS THEY SHOULD, so stop whining about the slow down or I'm sure we can get a petition going to enforce the 3 Engine slots destroyed = dead Mech rule for the Clans as well.

What? Clan 'Mechs are destroyed if they lose both STs in MWO

Only IS 'Mechs can keep going with only the CT intact..

Besides, just look at the bigger picture. Your 'Mechs are overquirked, you have cooler weapons that hit more etc. etc.

Seriously, a Dragon should not be able to open the whole torso of a Mad Dog with 2 ACs in just 3-5 seconds .

EDIT: Usually they would wait to sell more 'Mechs before nerfing them again..

Edited by CyclonerM, 17 March 2015 - 06:35 AM.

[Gyrok]

CapperDeluxe, on 17 March 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

Nah this nerf I'm OK with, its totally in line with BattleTech's loss of side torso XL engine crits.


Perhaps it also paves the way to allow more customization later such as being able to add/remove Ferro/Endo so some of the lesser clan mechs get a bit of a boost.

Ok, so let us implement the IS mechs from Lore then with SHS, no endo/ferro, and construction rules that require months to make changes on those scales with a factory refit required.

You good with that? I am ok with this *if* we adhere strictly to TT lore, which means that *ALL* IS mechs are running stock configs for their tech tree...you ok with that?

Kristov Kerensky, on 17 March 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

How about, no.

As it stands, Clan XL engines are already operating when they shouldn't. Each torso side contains 2 Engine slots, and Engine destruction comes at the loss of 3 Engine slots, regardless of where they are located.

For the IS, this means any XL engine goes boom the moment a side torso is destroyed. For the Clans, this means they keep going even after BOTH torso sides and 4 Engine slots are destroyed. Clans ALREADY get more advantages from their XL engines then they should, and you want to complain about making them go SLOWER if they get a side torso destroyed?

There's no mention of the Clan Mechs going dead when BOTH toros sides get destroyed, AS THEY SHOULD, so stop whining about the slow down or I'm sure we can get a petition going to enforce the 3 Engine slots destroyed = dead Mech rule for the Clans as well.

Clans are dead when both STs are lost...are you playing the same game we are?

Sjorpha, on 17 March 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

Introducing a better engine would render the existing engines obselete, that would be incredibly bad design.

There should be no obselete equipment in a PvP game, everything should be useful, it is bad enough that single heatsinks are useless, and that ferro is worse than endo. We need a balance where no upgrades or equipment are no brainers.

What's needed is to balance the existing engines, IS XLs should have some advantage that makes up for the extre crit slots and side torso death. The obvious is that they could be lighter.

it would makes a lot of sense IMO that:
Std = heaviest and most resilient.
Clan XL = lighter, more vulnerable.
IS XL= lightest, most vulnerable

Or, the IS gets LFE...?

Karl Streiger, on 17 March 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

You (OP) really think the LFE will change stuff? Do you really believe that will be a good option?
WE the IS will blow you into oblivion as soon as we get hands on the LFEs - its again "free" tonnage for more weapons/ammunition/heatsinks/speed - and clans - clans get nothing.

better to get this "side torso" destruction nerf on the road and adapt - its not perfect but its a start

No, they can adjust quirks to account for LFEs.

[mekabuser]

why would you have a problem with a speed reduction when all you do is spawn camp anyhows??

[Ultimax]

As much as I'd like LFEs, I just don't see PGI implementing it as it's so far out of the timeline and would probably become the defacto engine choice.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 17 March 2015 - 06:35 AM.

[Gyrok]

mekabuser, on 17 March 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

why would you have a problem with a speed reduction when all you do is spawn camp anyhows??

When all you do is stand in your spawn, kind of hard to not get camped...just saying...not going to wait 30 minutes to win 6-0 because you guys hid.

GG thanks for playing.

[Karl Streiger]

Ultimatum X, on 17 March 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

As much as I'd like LFEs, I just don't see PGI implementing it as it's so far out of the timeline and would probably become the defacto engine choice.

of course we need crit spliting other wise i can't mount those Heavy Gauss into my LFE Fafnir

Although that would be interesting:
critical hit in CT for the LFE Fafnir - is automatically a explosion for one Gauss.....that will explode the second one - that will blow the complete torso in an instant..... turning the arm stubs into deadly projectiles

but thats the "hope" i have - with effects for ST destruction maybe we get "critical" hits on a Reactor, Gyro and Activator stuff too.
The sacrifice of a hundred inocent clansmen for this goal is worht the afford - as long as Gyrok is not part of the sacrifice - i need him for my Blankenburg HPPCs

Edited by Karl Streiger, 17 March 2015 - 06:40 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

Or, the IS gets LFE...?

You mean instead? So completely remove std and XL and give all IS mechs LFE stock?

Because otherwise I don't see how the issue I described, that of std and XL being obseleted, could be avoided.

There is another problem however. The current choice between std and XL is one of the real tactical choices in IS mech building, and it is a well balanced choice too. Many medium and above mechs have both std and XL builds being viable, this a very good aspect of the building that should not be broken. Introducing a strictly superior engine would remove this choice, all optimal builds would use LFEs. Boring. And if the new engine is not superior that imbalance between IS and Clan engines remains.

Real balance between IS and clan, as in make all tech comparably strong (in different ways) is much better that breaking timeline and obseleting existing equipment.

[Mechteric]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

Ok, so let us implement the IS mechs from Lore then with SHS, no endo/ferro, and construction rules that require months to make changes on those scales with a factory refit required.

You good with that? I am ok with this *if* we adhere strictly to TT lore, which means that *ALL* IS mechs are running stock configs for their tech tree...you ok with that?

I did say I think clan mechs should allow extra customization to bring up the lesser clan mechs. Also I would like to see Engine crits be a thing in the game for IS mechs (CT or ST for XL).

Your sass, you can leave it at the door with your wedged panties.