716 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Kristov Kerensky, on 17 March 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

You guys sure about that both sides gone Clan Mech dead? I've ended up with a stripped Kit Fox more than a few times without dying, just 1 leg, CT and head left, still alive at round end. Could be a bug, that is the only Clan Mech I've done that with, and it's also the only Clan Mech I have that gets ignored by the enemy. Every other Clan Mech I drive, either I get legged or my CT gets focused after 1 side or the other gets stripped out, or some damn Locust runs up behind my Whale and opens the hatch and turns my engines to overload...swear to god that's how they kill me.

Regardless, 20% loss of speed is acceptable to me in my Clan Mechs. I play IS in CW, so it's not like I figured I was getting P2W Mechs when I bought my Clan Packs, no skin off my nose to balance them a bit better.

And the LFE, uh..yeah, lets put in something that makes ALL other IS engines totally obsolete for anything over 40 tons, yeah, that's a good idea. ANYTHING but trying to actually balance the Clan toys so they aren't quite as OP as they still are across the board. Because...hey...some people DID spend good money to buy those Clan toys, and they didn't do it because they wanted to support MWO, they just wanted the best toys in the game for...reasons...right?

Absolutely certain that you lose both ST and you die. In fact, you are guaranteed to die as soon as you lose any second torso.

As for the last part, no, it was for being able to play clan mechs assuming all things would be roughly equal.

[Mordin Ashe]

I am liking Gyrok's posts on regular basis. What have I become...

Anyway. Clans are getting nerfed again and again. Core issues (great hit boxes on SCR and Timby) aren't addressed but further nerfs that hurt the already hurting (Adders, for example, are in serious agony ever since they were released) without changing anything are happening too much lately. People will still think that Clans are too OP because TWs/SCRs are still strong, noone will play underperformers because they are poor now and will be even worse after this.

This is not how solving issues should look like. Solving problems should make things smoother, make conflictied areas disappear. This proposed nerf will keep the problem alive while making life worse for everyone else - if people think that Timby with only one ST will not kill them anymore then they are wrong, even though it is what so many hope for.

Side note: I don't care about Clan/IS balance at this point, we could compare Mechs, tech and upgrade options and have a nice discussion but when so many IS Mechs have 30%+ performance on several aspects of many weapons talking about this became pointless. Every single piece of "Clans2STRONG" whining can be countered by simple "you have 50% quirks => no right to complain" argument which is very sad if you think about it. I hope it doesn't affect IS/Clan balance topics in long term...
Eventually we got the same problem as Clans are facing. IS players are saying that Clans are too strong - true for Timby and SCR but false when talking about Adder or Nova. Now Clanners can say IS is too strong and again they are right, at least when talking about Thunderbolts, Dragons, Jagers and such. Not as much as when talking about Highlanders or Victors... Or perhaps is this the point of balance PGI is looking for? I would fear it because most of IS Mechs are viable while most of Clan Mechs is carbage.

[Metus regem]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 March 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

.03" Are you kidding? I've been working with + .015 Microns for 15 years now! Then again I'm in teh grinding department and when I was a Polisher hand I held + .005 Microns! I hadn't had + .030" since I was an apprentice!

Trust me, try turning something in a lathe with only .030" to hold in the chuck... by the way, wear a helmet, it might save your life when that part starts to fly around the shop.

[Lucian Nostra]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

What are you smoking?

Have you seen the Zeus quirks? ERLL *WITHOUT RANGE MODULES* that have a range of 810m. CERLL has a range of 740m.

WHERE IS THE RANGE ADVANTAGE????

Also, TDR-5SS with ERLL quirks has ERLL that go 911m with range module, meanwhile clans with ERLL and range 5 get 802m range.

WHERE IS THE RANGE ADVANTAGE????

Clans will, after this nerf have the following (dis)advantages over IS mechs:

1. Shorter range lasers
2. Hotter weapons
3. Inferior ballistics
4. Inferior missiles
5. Inferior customization
6. Inferior DPS
7. Inferior quirks

Meanwhile, the IS has the following disadvantages:

1. Longer range
2. Cooler weapons
3. Superior ballistics
4. Superior missiles
5. Superior customization
6. Superior DPS
7. Superior quirks

Are you dense, or blind to reality?

The problem Gyrok is that he's going to come back saying "Yeah but that's just the Zeus and Thunderbolt!" while completely ignoring that only the Stormcrow and Timberwolf are our lead mechs.

Hellbringer and Direwolf are.. Good.. I find it very hard to call them over performers though.

Most IS complainers refuse to see what amazing mechs they actually do have.. Ever see a stormcrow win a close up fight against a Hunch 4G? I havent..

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 March 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Add heat just like the old days. You remember those days right? Just add +5 heat every so many seconds for one engine hit and +10 for the second. As it has been for 3 decades. How hard can that be? We already get extra heat for Hot environments and standing in lava for cryin' out loud!

And guess what? It can be applied to both Clan and inner Sphere engines! TA DA! Life the Universe and Everything is balanced!!!

Totally uncertain of the Engineering/Code side but it appears that only IS and Clan XL engines are built as more than a single component piece. The STD engine appears to be a one piece component and "every" I.S. STD engine would have to be redone/recoded to allow Crits to happen in any fashion whatsoever.

For the XL model, they were designed to be multi-component, but only into 3 components each. I.S. XL lose any 1 of 3 sections (RT/CT/LT) and BOOM dead Mech. The Clan can lose 1 ST and keep going (apply penalties) but 2 Boom dead.

[Mordin Ashe]

Lucian Nostra, on 17 March 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Most IS complainers refuse to see what amazing mechs they actually do have.. Ever see a stormcrow win a close up fight against a Hunch 4G? I havent..

Most IS complainers ignore that Clans have 2 very good Mechs, 2 somehow viable Mechs and 9 underperformers. I have never seen anyone who is realistically capable of describing the Clan balancing issue in comparison with general Clan deck viability... The viability sucks, good thing we have two jewells but it doesn't make the 9 terrible Mechs suck any less.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 17 March 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[Dirus Nigh]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

What are you smoking?

Have you seen the Zeus quirks? ERLL *WITHOUT RANGE MODULES* that have a range of 810m. CERLL has a range of 740m.


Are you dense, or blind to reality?

Maybe you should take a step back and look at the changes to IS mechs through quirks and why.

All of these quirks with huge modifiers are yet another over reaction to the basic problem that clan weapons, from the start, have been over powered. Take away the quirks and clans dominate the game yet again. Make the clan weapons closer to IS weapons in ability will render most of those quirks unnecessary.

[Joseph Mallan]

Metus regem, on 17 March 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Trust me, try turning something in a lathe with only .030" to hold in the chuck... by the way, wear a helmet, it might save your life when that part starts to fly around the shop.

Wait HOLDING IN THE CHUCK??? Are you crazy!

[Gyrok]

Dirus Nigh, on 17 March 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Maybe you should take a step back and look at the changes to IS mechs through quirks and why.

All of these quirks with huge modifiers are yet another over reaction to the basic problem that clan weapons, from the start, have been over powered. Take away the quirks and clans dominate the game yet again. Make the clan weapons closer to IS weapons in ability will render most of those quirks unnecessary.

This has zero to do with weapons, this is regarding nerfing the chassis themselves...

Also, there are no stock IS weapons, everything you have is quirked 20% if it is quirked at all...meanwhile, the ADR with fixed engine and 106 kph top speed after speed tweak gets a velocity buff on the CERPPC (not bad), and a COOL DOWN buff...so it can run HOTTER than it ALREADY does...?? Because it needed to generate more heat faster...right?

WTF?!

These mechs pay for the engine tonnage to get the speed they have, crippling them after they lose half their weapons and have a heat penalty is asinine.

Edited by Gyrok, 17 March 2015 - 09:02 AM.

[Lucian Nostra]

Mordin Ashe, on 17 March 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

Most IS complainers ignore that Clans have 2 very good Mechs, 2 somehow viable Mechs and 9 underperformers. I have never seen anyone who is realistically capable of describing the Clan balancing issue in comparison with general Clan deck viability... The viability sucks, good thing we have two jewells but it doesn't make the 9 terrible Mechs suck any less.

Honestly a big portion of why I play so little MWO lately is because the mechs I want to run are bad.. Mist Lynx, Adder, Summoner and Gargoyle.. sigh

[Metus regem]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 March 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Wait HOLDING IN THE CHUCK??? Are you crazy!

That's what I told the engineer at the time... he didn't believe me... so I had him stand next to me at the lathe as I spun it up, and touched it with the tool... After that he started to give everyone between .25"-.75" to hold in the chuck.

[MerryIguana]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

I think that rather than piss off a large number of the people playing clans, why not bring in the LFEs (http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light) for the IS?

This would basically stop all the crying about engines

So instead of pissing of clan players your suggestion is to piss off IS players instead? I am sure that having to rebuy every engine in their garage will make them very happy. Cant see how anyone would cry about that.

[KraftySOT]

Mordin Ashe, on 17 March 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

Most IS complainers ignore that Clans have 2 very good Mechs, 2 somehow viable Mechs and 9 underperformers. I have never seen anyone who is realistically capable of describing the Clan balancing issue in comparison with general Clan deck viability... The viability sucks, good thing we have two jewells but it doesn't make the 9 terrible Mechs suck any less.

To be fair, its exactly the same for the IS.

You have to remember, you also have a few configurations of each of those 2 great mechs (and the Dire is great outside of CW) which really leads to 4-6 honestly great mechs.

We have to get another variant or chassis to do that. Then put in dubs. Then endo. Then buy the weps and modules and such.

Its asymmetrically balanced, but its still balanced. If you can find me more than 5 IS mechs that are great in CW and Group and Pug, ill eat me own feces.

According to the meta website, there are only a handful of tier one mechs period. Of which you have the best.

[Stoned Prophet]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 March 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

I quit doing most math once I graduated from my Toolmaker apprenticeship(19 years ago). Seems even in skilled trades, computers do all the thinking (CNC Machinery).

I assure you, the guy who did the cad did some math

[FupDup]

I'd rather have a 10% speed loss and ~50% engine heatsink loss than 20% speed loss and 20% engine heatsink loss.


(-10% basically removes Speed Tweak)


Also, the Speed Retention module should cancel out the penalty. Maybe it would be useful then...

Edited by FupDup, 17 March 2015 - 09:55 AM.

[Molossian Dog]

Thoughts? Ok.

[Flaming oblivion]

God damn you PGI you suck


Now if I lose a torso in my already vastly superior mech weapon wise slot wise range wise etc, I will lose a barely noticeable amount of speed , but still be alive to keep doing damage.

This is unacceptable as IS mechs when they lose a torso flat out die

I must keep my clan mech ridiculously op.

/end sarcasm.

[Dirus Nigh]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

This has zero to do with weapons, this is regarding nerfing the chassis themselves...

Also, there are no stock IS weapons, everything you have is quirked 20% if it is quirked at all...meanwhile, the ADR with fixed engine and 106 kph top speed after speed tweak gets a velocity buff on the CERPPC (not bad), and a COOL DOWN buff...so it can run HOTTER than it ALREADY does...?? Because it needed to generate more heat faster...right?

WTF?!

These mechs pay for the engine tonnage to get the speed they have, crippling them after they lose half their weapons and have a heat penalty is asinine.

Yes it is about weapons. If the weapon balance was fine then there would not be the need for quirks.

[kapusta11]

In TT losing 2 engine crits (ST with CXL) engine would make you generate 10 heat each turn, with 20 DHS your "heat cap" is 40, the penalty would limit your alpha strike potential/damage output by 25% (20% with 25 DHS, 33% with 15).

Edited by kapusta11, 17 March 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[Evan20k]

*Signed*

I've almost always been of the belief that buffing an unequal part of a game is better than nerfing something else (unless the inequality is particularly egregious).