716 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

Andi Nagasia, on 20 March 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

i would consider 70% heat Efficiency loss(20% engine 50% half of mech) a disadvantage,
Just Bear in mind that Every Disadvantage the C-LX get the IS-LFE will get when it comes out,

A disadvantage as opposed to instant destruction that IS XL gets?

Oops someone already replied same way while I was in match.....

Edited by Johnny Z, 20 March 2015 - 07:40 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Sundervine, on 20 March 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

If they are going to add this, then it shows they can add the heat scale movement modifiers as well. That would be the only way I would want to see this.

Otherwise quit blanket nerfing. There are so many options they could add to make this fair its not even funny. As well as the fact that so many clan mechs are sub par because of this.

Why because of this? why is it unfair? Well let me explain a few things:
1: If i wanted to change to a standard engine... so I do not have this problem... I cannot. I cannot get around this change even If i wanted to. IS can, all they do is drop a standard engine and its fixed.
2: Fixed engine size that makes over half the clan mechs sub optimal. I cannot change my clan mech engine to what is most optimal and most likely will not. On my IS mechs I can optimize the engine size and type. Thus on 90% of the clan mechs this is just more weakness.

If you want this then unlock clan engines. If not leave it alone the engines are nerfed enough already. The XL is not the problem it is other things.

Clan mechs have fixed easy mode engines and Is mechs have fixed hard points.

You want to unlock clan engines which still wouldnt balance the easy mode XL engine, then fine, Unlock Inner Sphere hard points.

Edited by Johnny Z, 20 March 2015 - 07:45 PM.

[Adamski]

Sundervine, on 20 March 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

If they are going to add this, then it shows they can add the heat scale movement modifiers as well. That would be the only way I would want to see this.

Otherwise quit blanket nerfing. There are so many options they could add to make this fair its not even funny. As well as the fact that so many clan mechs are sub par because of this.

Why because of this? why is it unfair? Well let me explain a few things:
1: If i wanted to change to a standard engine... so I do not have this problem... I cannot. I cannot get around this change even If i wanted to. IS can, all they do is drop a standard engine and its fixed.
2: Fixed engine size that makes over half the clan mechs sub optimal. I cannot change my clan mech engine to what is most optimal and most likely will not. On my IS mechs I can optimize the engine size and type. Thus on 90% of the clan mechs this is just more weakness.

If you want this then unlock clan engines. If not leave it alone the engines are nerfed enough already. The XL is not the problem it is other things.

You are an idiot, the 20% speed nerf and 20% engine heatsinks loss is what turns your Clan XL into an IS Standard of the same weight.

75 ton Timberwolf,375 Clan XL (26.5t), 15 Engine Heatsinks, 89.1 Kph Speed Tweak
75 ton Orion, 305 STD (26.5t), 12 Engine Heatsinks, 72.5 Kph Speed Tweak

20% loss of 15 heat sinks brings it to 12
20% loss of 89.1 Kph brings it to 71.3 Kph

[Stoned Prophet]

stkxie, on 19 March 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

As long as I get an option to swap to std engine....

As long as that standard engine is the same rating sure.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adamski, on 20 March 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:

You are an idiot, the 20% speed nerf and 20% engine heatsinks loss is what turns your Clan XL into an IS Standard of the same weight.

75 ton Timberwolf,375 Clan XL (26.5t), 15 Engine Heatsinks, 89.1 Kph Speed Tweak
75 ton Orion, 305 STD (26.5t), 12 Engine Heatsinks, 72.5 Kph Speed Tweak

20% loss of 15 heat sinks brings it to 12
20% loss of 89.1 Kph brings it to 71.3 Kph

Not to mention, any IS Mech that loses an ST either dies (with XL) or loses up to 50% of Weapons and Cooling, too, as you just lost half your mech. All while going slower and carrying less firepower than the Clans, on average, BEFORE they lost a side, and while having less heat efficiency, because of 3 crit DHS vs 2 (so for instance, clans can pack more DHS per side, and can put them in Legs and CTs, crits permitting, whereas IS mechs cannot), and the fact those Larger Clan XLs are usually chock full of DHS also.

Stoned Prophet, on 20 March 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

As long as that standard engine is the same rating sure.

MMMMMMM. 375std Timberwolf. Yummy!

[Bishop Steiner]

Ozealot, on 20 March 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

IS Omnimech hardpoints are unlocked... now. Carry on.

wow, so I can toss a HBK-4P RT on my 4G? Or add an CN9-AH RA to my CN9-A?

Cool story bro. Carry on. And keep being that guy who favorites his own posts. I guess someone has to like them.

[Gyrok]

Drunk Canuck, on 20 March 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

Nah, not really. I haven't been complaining about the strength of Clans to the extent that others have, and considering how much you moaned about the TDR 9S, you really aren't in any position to be accusing me of whining. I have already made my point as to how Clans could be nerfed in this thread (you should go back a couple of pages), and it's not through an IS power creep like you suggested, and it isn't through a speed nerf from losing a side torso. Someone suggested removing speed tweak from Clans, which I am on the fence about as it seems to be that it would impact more Mech's negatively then it would the problem trinity. Making Clan UAC's better might be a start, I haven't since day one, liked the design of Clan UAC's, it's pretty much useless for any Mech that isn't a DWF B because the multi shot cannons pretty much make their direct damage inferior and the DWF is only successful in dealing damage because it can carry a lot of them. I also proposed nerfing the ER ML damage a bit, since a 1 ton weapon that is nearly equivalent to an IS Large Laser is a bit much, and increasing the stock cool down on the Clan Large Pulse Laser would help to mitigate the effectiveness of Clan laser vomit, but really if Clan UAC's aren't viable on any chassis other than a DWF, of course people aren't going to use them and that is ultimately where the problem comes from. Power creep has been the problem, nerfing Clans should be done through power reduction to be honest, it makes way more sense to reduce damage then essentially make most chassis complete garbage by doing a sweeping nerf. Taking Speed Tweak away from the Stormcrow would be a reasonable nerf as well.

As for drowning in them, I meant the position you are holding is that of those who are pouring tears onto the forums. Also, I started a thread about the 9S, and frankly, if you are a balance advocate and are objective, you have to admit the QUANTITY of firepower was too much with 50% heat quirks. Now it is MUCH more reasonable, AND more effective.

The issue with nerfing speed is, clans pay for the speed with big engines, drunk. If you are going to nerf anything the clans have that has a counterpart in IS mechs, then IS mechs need to also observe that nerf. Balance right now is actually REALLY close. I would say less than 5% difference one way or the other, which is realistically close enough.

However, people want to leverage a 20% nerf? In what world does that even make anything remotely fair, unless the goals of the nerf herders are for 12 IS pubs to be able to curb stomp a 12 man of clans with little effort.

Seriously...

Pjwned, on 20 March 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

That may be the case but there were no balance changes that happened there, people were simply pissed off that PGI messed around with matchmaking in a piss poor manner instead of implementing it in a way that actually made sense. There were no balance changes to whine about because their precious mechs were getting nerfed appropriately, hence no bias and no real reason to ignore it. Just because people will whine about appropriate nerfs, and I'm sure they will WHINE like crazy, doesn't mean they need to be listened to.

Just because people are whining about nerfs that are unwarranted, that also does not mean they need to be listened to.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

wow, so I can toss a HBK-4P RT on my 4G? Or add an CN9-AH RA to my CN9-A? Cool story bro. Carry on. And keep being that guy who favorites his own posts. I guess someone has to like them.

HBK-4P is not an omnimech, yours are coming soon. Enjoy playing them at less efficacy than IS battlemechs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 20 March 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

However, people want to leverage a 20% nerf? In what world does that even make anything remotely fair, unless the goals of the nerf herders are for 12 IS pubs to be able to curb stomp a 12 man of clans with little effort.

Seriously...

Wow. Did you really go there?

That would ALMOST make sense...if your Mechs started with that 20% at the beginning of the match. And if, you know, IS Mechs weren't dropping DEAD at the same point your are getting your 20% nerf.

Gyrok, on 20 March 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

HBK-4P is not an omnimech, yours are coming soon. Enjoy playing them at less efficacy than IS battlemechs.

irrelevant to the point being made.

And trust me, I will. We Steiner/Ghost Bears are far less volatile and more adaptable, if slower to do so than the rest of you Clanners.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 March 2015 - 08:06 PM.

[Gyrok]

Illya Arkhipova, on 20 March 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

Oh, do tell me more?

Also, those few, the handful that seem to be agreeing? Will be relegated to the bandit caste soon enough.

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

And here I thought it as the Emerald Peacocks that were supposed to be the uptight, hypertensive clanners. *SMH* Must be a crusader thing.

Having a conversation with yourself? How Schizophrenic of you...

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

Wow. Did you really go there?

That would ALMOST make sense...if your Mechs started with that 20% at the beginning of the match. And if, you know, IS Mechs weren't dropping DEAD at the same point your are getting your 20% nerf.


irrelevant to the point being made.

And trust me, I will. We Steiner/Ghost Bears are far less volatile and more adaptable, if slower to do so than the rest of you Clanners.

If IS engines were getting crit damage and suffering penalties for crit damage to their engines, then I would agree it would be completely fair.

If they are going to do this...we need to have a full blown crit system into the game with 1 crit slot = 10% heat and movement for BOTH sides, and 2 crit slot = 20% heat and 20% speed for BOTH sides, and 3 crit slot = DEATH for BOTH sides.

Edited by Gyrok, 20 March 2015 - 08:08 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 20 March 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

Having a conversation with yourself? How Schizophrenic of you...



If IS engines were getting crit damage and suffering penalties for crit damage to their engines, then I would agree it would be completely fair.

If they are going to do this...we need to have a full blown crit system into the game with 1 crit slot = 10% heat and movement for BOTH sides, and 2 crit slot = 20% heat and 20% speed for BOTH sides, and 3 crit slot = DEATH for BOTH sides.

I would not be opposed to that, but it really doesn't change the fact that the Clan XL is a ridiculous advantage as is, and not NEAR the DoA nef to all things Clan you are trying to paint it as, no matter how much you dodge my point.

[Serpieri]

Game definitely needs a crit system - engine, gyros, weapons, heatsinks etc...can all be destroyed before the location holding them is and no side is exempt from this.

Edited by Serpieri, 20 March 2015 - 08:19 PM.

[Pjwned]

Gyrok, on 20 March 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

Just because people are whining about nerfs that are unwarranted, that also does not mean they need to be listened to.

That's true, although in this case the nerfs are warranted despite massive denial, but the point there was to establish that whining doesn't need to be listened to just because something was changed (or on the other hand is not being changed) for balance, and also that you should come up with a better example next time to compare to.

Edited by Pjwned, 20 March 2015 - 09:17 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Pjwned, on 20 March 2015 - 09:15 PM, said:

That's true, although in this case the nerfs are warranted despite massive denial, but the point there was to establish that whining doesn't need to be listened to just because something was changed (or on the other hand is not being changed) for balance, and also that you should come up with a better example next time to compare to.

But Gyrok needs to spend X hours every day defending the lack of clan-IS balance.

[Drunk Canuck]

Gyrok, on 20 March 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

As for drowning in them, I meant the position you are holding is that of those who are pouring tears onto the forums. Also, I started a thread about the 9S, and frankly, if you are a balance advocate and are objective, you have to admit the QUANTITY of firepower was too much with 50% heat quirks. Now it is MUCH more reasonable, AND more effective.

The issue with nerfing speed is, clans pay for the speed with big engines, drunk. If you are going to nerf anything the clans have that has a counterpart in IS mechs, then IS mechs need to also observe that nerf. Balance right now is actually REALLY close. I would say less than 5% difference one way or the other, which is realistically close enough.

However, people want to leverage a 20% nerf? In what world does that even make anything remotely fair, unless the goals of the nerf herders are for 12 IS pubs to be able to curb stomp a 12 man of clans with little effort.

Seriously...

Just because people are whining about nerfs that are unwarranted, that also does not mean they need to be listened to.

No, balance is not close at all. Streaks are still broken as hell and impossible for IS to counter due to how they function and laser vomit is too strong. There is a reason why I said rather than nerfing speed, they nerf damage instead. If you want to create a closer level of balance, damage has to be considered before anything else. Speed is only really an advantage for the SCR, the TBR is as fast as any other 75 tonner with an XL that size, it is just able to pack a lot of punch due to the strength of weapons like the ER ML. Reduce it's damage output and things might be better, but removing Speed Tweak from the TBR and SCR might also help balance them a bit more. Quite frankly the DWF is slow enough that it is justified in how many guns it can bring, however I have no issues with seeing damage nerfs over speed.

[Yokaiko]

Drunk Canuck, on 21 March 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

No, balance is not close at all. Streaks are still broken as hell and impossible for IS to counter due to how they function and laser vomit is too strong. There is a reason why I said rather than nerfing speed, they nerf damage instead. If you want to create a closer level of balance, damage has to be considered before anything else. Speed is only really an advantage for the SCR, the TBR is as fast as any other 75 tonner with an XL that size, it is just able to pack a lot of punch due to the strength of weapons like the ER ML. Reduce it's damage output and things might be better, but removing Speed Tweak from the TBR and SCR might also help balance them a bit more. Quite frankly the DWF is slow enough that it is justified in how many guns it can bring, however I have no issues with seeing damage nerfs over speed.

So my Grasshopper goes the same speed, jumps, and only had 4 less power

.....5 tons less.

[Mcgral18]

Vassago Rain, on 21 March 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

But Gyrok needs to spend X hours every day defending the lack of clan-IS balance.

If you want to blanket nerf the Clams, you need to first fix the Terribad ones.


That's my only complaint.

[FearNotDeath]

Give IS mech's the clan XL benefit, even let them change engine sizes.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 21 March 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

If you want to blanket nerf the Clams, you need to first fix the Terribad ones.


That's my only complaint.

not 100% true, but it would be nice. Also, severity of the nerf is being way overrated, IMO. The previous one was barely noticeable. And the Clan XL is still one of the biggest overall balance issues IS/Clans.

Instead of trying to stop it in general, I intend to embrace it and use it to push that much harder for Endo. Would love it first, or simultaneously, but will work it either way.

[Dino Might]

Gyrok, on 20 March 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

If IS engines were getting crit damage and suffering penalties for crit damage to their engines, then I would agree it would be completely fair.

If they are going to do this...we need to have a full blown crit system into the game with 1 crit slot = 10% heat and movement for BOTH sides, and 2 crit slot = 20% heat and 20% speed for BOTH sides, and 3 crit slot = DEATH for BOTH sides.

You made both sides of the argument in one single post - the schizo comment and its irony made me laugh.
So, here's the deal - there is no engine crit system in place, so you have a point in that the IS engines cannot get "crit out" from CT hits; however, the IS XL engines do get crit out from ST loss.

Now, there is a penalty for Clans based on ST loss. 20% is modest, and reasonable in my opinion. But the numbers can be argued by more data driven minds. You raised the point of equity between Clan and IS. Well, this penalty gives some equity, because the Clan mechs still cannot have engine crit destruction from the CT, IS mechs cannot have engine crit destruction from the CT, and now both suffer ramifications for XL side torso loss. The IS loses the whole mech, the Clans lose some heat/movement. While it still looks unbalanced in favor of the Clans, it is reasonable because the Clans cannot use standard engines.

If you're arguing for parity, the Clans are still a leg up here - you have no case to make that, in a vacuum (read: "without considering the other game balance mechanics"), the ST loss nerf is unfair - it is anything but.

On a side note, I would like to see some builds using IS weight standard engines on Clan mechs that people would prefer and call competitive before I can be convinced that the IS is now at an advantage in the mech durability department.