716 replies to this topic

[theta123]

Am i the only here who frikking thing IS and Clan mechs are just fine?

So yeah, the Clans have a slight advantage.. But its kinda supposed to be. And clan players need to understand that Clans won many battles when fighting IS mechs with barely any modern equipment.
Untill comstar came that is

[Bishop Steiner]

theta123, on 22 March 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Am i the only here who frikking thing IS and Clan mechs are just fine?

So yeah, the Clans have a slight advantage.. But its kinda supposed to be. And clan players need to understand that Clans won many battles when fighting IS mechs with barely any modern equipment.
Untill comstar came that is

problem with that? Players for the IS have BETTER equipment, in total than Comstar did at Tukayyid. Comstar doesn't get to sweep in with better tech and 3 to 1 odds to save the day.

[Kristov Kerensky]

EAP10, on 22 March 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

Sorry... Just misunderstood what was going on... No need to be the defender of nerfs...

When people so blatantly misrepresent an actually needed balance change, yes, there needs to be some of us who speak up against the bs. We've had way too much power creep in this game already, IS quirks are a great example of that and I agree they need to be redone and toned down, the weapon based ones especially. Clan XLs should have a downside when you lose a ST, that's the ONLY downside they have. They tried the heat thing, it was SO effective that people didn't even realize it was there, seriously, no one realized it was working already. So now the thinking by Russ is a speed loss, 10-20%, not a huge hit, not fatal, just a little annoying, but maybe that's enough to make it a little more balanced, worth trying. And it beats the hell out of PGI's typical 'balance acts' which tend to go from one extreme to another instead of taking little steps.

Clan toys are still a bit too OP, we've got more Clan toys coming which will make the problem even more evident, best to get on top of before that happens. I've spent quite a bit of money on the Clan packs myself, and I'm fully for the proposal, it's a good start and it's not an overboard knee jerk reaction. I also said they should make OmniMechs actually OMNI, enough with these limited pods, give all OmniMechs pods that can fit ALL the weapon types, that IS the real power of them after all and it needs to be added. Give and take, balance, that's how it's attained. Clans should be superior overall to the IS toys, but since this IS a PvP game online, there needs to be a lessening of the actual OPness so that it's there but it's not an autowin option. When the Clans are easily taking planets left and right, balance isn't happening, it's obvious, so obvious that PGI made this proposal on their own, NOT at the request of the playerbase.

[EAP10]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 March 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

When people so blatantly misrepresent an actually needed balance change, yes, there needs to be some of us who speak up against the bs. We've had way too much power creep in this game already, IS quirks are a great example of that and I agree they need to be redone and toned down, the weapon based ones especially. Clan XLs should have a downside when you lose a ST, that's the ONLY downside they have. They tried the heat thing, it was SO effective that people didn't even realize it was there, seriously, no one realized it was working already. So now the thinking by Russ is a speed loss, 10-20%, not a huge hit, not fatal, just a little annoying, but maybe that's enough to make it a little more balanced, worth trying. And it beats the hell out of PGI's typical 'balance acts' which tend to go from one extreme to another instead of taking little steps.

Clan toys are still a bit too OP, we've got more Clan toys coming which will make the problem even more evident, best to get on top of before that happens. I've spent quite a bit of money on the Clan packs myself, and I'm fully for the proposal, it's a good start and it's not an overboard knee jerk reaction. I also said they should make OmniMechs actually OMNI, enough with these limited pods, give all OmniMechs pods that can fit ALL the weapon types, that IS the real power of them after all and it needs to be added. Give and take, balance, that's how it's attained. Clans should be superior overall to the IS toys, but since this IS a PvP game online, there needs to be a lessening of the actual OPness so that it's there but it's not an autowin option. When the Clans are easily taking planets left and right, balance isn't happening, it's obvious, so obvious that PGI made this proposal on their own, NOT at the request of the playerbase.

OK, great, glad to hear that. I'm now going to end this and say we both have our own opinions. Good day.

[Ultimax]

EAP10, on 22 March 2015 - 08:17 AM, said:

I would like to not touch clan engines at all, but just slightly Nerf the stellar clan chassis. If we Nerf all clan engines we also Nerf the useless clan mechs more than they already are.

You mean like when all of the T3 & 4 & 5 IS mechs lose a ST with an XL and just...die?


You don't balance EQUIPMENT based on some mechs not being optimal.


Clan XL vs. IS XL/STD is one of the biggest imbalances currently in the game.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 22 March 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

You mean like when all of the T3 & 4 & 5 IS mechs lose a ST with an XL and just...die?


You don't balance EQUIPMENT based on some mechs not being optimal.


Clan XL vs. IS XL/STD is one of the biggest imbalances currently in the game.

And blanket nerfs without helping the terribad chassis will just lead to more TimberGods and DoomCrows which will cause more complaints about faction balance because of two robots.


Fix the Terribad ones, blanket nerf. Don't blanket nerf the Terribad ones, and leave them Terribad...as has been done. Multiple times.

[Karl Streiger]

It is no nerf - to call it nerf - means to call Clan Heatsink a buff - or if the Light Gauss or ATM make in the game name them buffs.

Everything that have effect on everything - is not supposed to nerf the terribads - relativ they stay the same - of course they could need some love and without the Ecm the HellBee would be another addition to the terribads.
Want to change stuff? Look afterwards for special Catapult threatment - i think all you need to fix the good to the ugly - bigger head hitboxes.

Only reason never thought the Catapult Op in CB

[Karl Streiger]

Anyhow worst reasoning ever read in this topics - i bought Clan Package now they got nerfed. Wont pay for Wave 3 if...
Grow your self a pair - because i could ask for a refund for Wave 3.
So PGi may choose between money they never had or loose money ;-)
Not good reason by me - just to show how silly this money reason is

[Mike McSullivan]

Mcgral18, on 22 March 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

And blanket nerfs without helping the terribad chassis will just lead to more TimberGods and DoomCrows which will cause more complaints about faction balance because of two robots.
Fix the Terribad ones, blanket nerf. Don't blanket nerf the Terribad ones, and leave them Terribad...as has been done. Multiple times.

and there is one easy solution for that...let players of the so said bad Clan-Mechs change, or at least add the structure-upgrades. no fixed weaponry, etcpp. An Adder is an Adder. Nothing will change that, but a little more punch, or equipment could help.

[Karl Streiger]

No fired equipment - or no fixed stuff will help the Adder by exactly 0.5Tons.

And for the Dachhasl ozelot to double sarcasm sarcasm is Op

Edited by Karl Streiger, 22 March 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Mike McSullivan, on 22 March 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

and there is one easy solution for that...let players of the so said bad Clan-Mechs change, or at least add the structure-upgrades. no fixed weaponry, etcpp. An Adder is an Adder. Nothing will change that, but a little more punch, or equipment could help.

A 5th hardpoint is 20% more firepower in the Badder's case.

A cAP is over 10% of the available pod space on a Myth Lynx. A 225 engine would be ideal, but literally anything would help that mech.

Karl Streiger, on 22 March 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

No fired equipment - or no fixed stuff will help the Adder by exactly 0.5Tons.

And for the Dachhasl ozelot to double sarcasm sarcasm is Op

And a high mounted hardpoint.


That helps quite a bit, believe it or not.

[KraftySOT]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 March 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

problem with that? Players for the IS have BETTER equipment, in total than Comstar did at Tukayyid. Comstar doesn't get to sweep in with better tech and 3 to 1 odds to save the day.

Technically Bishop, IS players have better MOUNTS.

Our equipment is subpar. Until you plop it into certain mounts, on certain mechs. If youre completely brain dead, youre still putting Large Lasers in mounts (mechs not quirked for them) that are bad, then your equipment is DRAMATICALLY subpar. If youre putting IS equipment in certain mounts, youre doing better than the clans.

As a whole, including the braindead on both sides, balance is pretty good. When you eliminate the braindead on both sides...theres simply not enough data to make a scientific call as to who is better.

*came back for the edit*

Its like...Comstar went to only the best mechwarriors in the entire sphere, and were like hey man. Heres the good stuff.

Its making it really difficult to balance.

Edited by KraftySOT, 22 March 2015 - 10:02 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Good to know

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 22 March 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

And blanket nerfs without helping the terribad chassis will just lead to more TimberGods and DoomCrows which will cause more complaints about faction balance because of two robots.


Fix the Terribad ones, blanket nerf. Don't blanket nerf the Terribad ones, and leave them Terribad...as has been done. Multiple times.

No.

You address the imbalanced equipment, or you buff the under performing side to equivalency.


Equipment imbalances don't suddenly go away if we nerf the TBR, DWF, SCR, Ebon Jaguar, Shadowcat, Arctic Cheetah, Hellbringer, etc.


How many clan mechs do we nerf so that Clan XL gets to remain unquestionably superior to the IS "options"?

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 March 2015 - 11:00 AM.

[Shredhead]

Mike McSullivan, on 22 March 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

and there is one easy solution for that...let players of the so said bad Clan-Mechs change, or at least add the structure-upgrades. no fixed weaponry, etcpp. An Adder is an Adder. Nothing will change that, but a little more punch, or equipment could help.

The Adder already has 16 tons to play with, this thing can pack more punch than some IS mediums. It's a geometry thing, it's just a big target. Other than giving it armor quirks there's nothing that can be done to help it.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 22 March 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

No.

You address the imbalanced equipment, or you buff the under performing side to equivalency.


Equipment imbalances don't suddenly go away if we nerf the TBR, DWF, SCR, Ebon Jaguar, Shadowcat, Arctic Cheetah, Hellbringer, etc.


How many clan mechs do we nerf so that Clan XL gets to remain unquestionably superior to the IS "options"?

You get a baseline then you blanket nerf.

Isn't that what this whole thread is about? Blanket nerfing the Terribad mechs, without addressing their Terribad attributes?


Address those terrible construction rules, or give them quirks that aren't worthless. A Mr Gargles with 30 tons of weapons>Mr Gargles with 20 tons of weapons.
Quirks to offset that need to be pretty significant.

[Tarl Cabot]

I have been seeing the threads but took a bit to locate exactly what was generating the threads.

Zeece, on 16 March 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

Just posted on twitter
https://twitter.com/...528812176441344


Mogney_SRPH ‏@Mogney_SRPH 14m14 minutes ago

• @russ_bullock Or Betty spams you with "Recalibrating Engine" for 10 seconds while you enjoy a 90% reduction in speed and heat dissipation.

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock

• 
  
  
  @Mogney_SRPH Yes reduction in speed I think is sounding very fair now that we see the full impact of the heat increase from ST destruction
  
• 
  
  
  
  @Dr_DXZ @Mogney_SRPH likely in the 20% range just like the 20% heat dissipation loss - 20% of engine crit slots missing etc

I had to think about this for a bit. Since PGI atm is not using the BT heat scale events across the board, they are doing it in increments but in a different manner.



In BT, one engine crit produces an additional 5 heat, two engine crits 10 heat/round. In the chart that equates to a minus 2 movement points. A Direwolf initially as 5 movement points/run. With the loss of a side torso = 2 engine crits it is down to 3 movement points.

I rarely pilot any Clan mechs atm as I had not purchased any of the packs due not being able to use them in any form in CW unless I fought for one of the Clans. I am a die-hard member of the DCMS.

I do see the madness behind it but it I am not liking the micro-management in one area while others are not being affected when, imho, PGI should also include a speed reduction simply based on general heat level across the board. This would affect all mechs as they hit a specific threshold, then when a Clan lose a side torso it has to be even more cautious when firing its weapons.

Ghost heat will likely be a staying aspect of this game, and firing til shutdown/override/kill yourself is more of an act of desperation, would not the threat of being slowed down be enough to deter someone from continuously firing their weapons so that they can skedaddle ?

On the other hand, in PGI mind it may make sense to introduce the speed reduction in this manner instead of across the board. Only time will tell.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mike McSullivan, on 22 March 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

and there is one easy solution for that...let players of the so said bad Clan-Mechs change, or at least add the structure-upgrades. no fixed weaponry, etcpp. An Adder is an Adder. Nothing will change that, but a little more punch, or equipment could help.

Ill take a little more punch....13-15dmg CERPPC please? Adder would be pure vicious with a true CERPPC. And hell, for tht matter, give it true dubs to. 30% HEat dissipation quirk? yes sir.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 22 March 2015 - 12:01 PM.

[Pjwned]

Karl Streiger, on 22 March 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Well instead of the speed reduction they can drop the heatcapacity of another 10points and add a constant heat of 1 HPS.

Fact its no nerf - like dropping the heat quirks for the Thunderbolt was no nerf.
Its a correction, or an addition.
There should never have been the invulnerability of Clan Xl

I really don't agree with a massive, crippling heat penalty for losing a side torso, that is pretty lame if you can barely even fire any remaining weapons and considering clan ballistics aren't used very much (since ballistics tend to be lower heat) that would be a big problem. I do agree with a heat penalty, I just think that the current heat penalty is as high as it should be.

Mcgral18, on 22 March 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

And blanket nerfs without helping the terribad chassis will just lead to more TimberGods and DoomCrows which will cause more complaints about faction balance because of two robots.


Fix the Terribad ones, blanket nerf. Don't blanket nerf the Terribad ones, and leave them Terribad...as has been done. Multiple times.

Despite rather unpopular clan quirks like +4% machine gun range or whatever, those lower tier mechs are being addressed so I don't see the need to go on and on about justified nerfs affecting other mechs. I would even argue that the speed penalty needs to happen first so that people (players and PGI both) can see "this mech performs this much worse with this change so we'll have to make its quirks this much better."

Edited by Pjwned, 22 March 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Pjwned, on 22 March 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

I really don't agree with a massive, crippling heat penalty for losing a side torso, that is pretty lame if you can barely even fire any remaining weapons and considering clan ballistics aren't used very much (since ballistics tend to be lower heat) that would be a big problem. I do agree with a heat penalty, I just think that the current heat penalty is as high as it should be.

The heat penalty has been in for a bit now, it's a 20% loss of cooling capacity, only extra cooling lost is if you have DHS on the side lost, which amounts to, so far, a 40% loss of cooling on the Mist Lynx and 20 to 35% on the rest at most. It's been totally missed by the players because it's so pointlessly low.

This is what prompted the speed loss consideration by Russ, data shows the heat isn't having any effect on Clan performance. It's a wasted balance effort in other words, and server data still evidently shows the Clans are still too OP and need to be balanced out a bit more.