716 replies to this topic

[Adamski]

CrushLibs, on 26 March 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

Depending on how high up the food chain the stock engine is should regulate what the clam mech can and can't do.

Puma should be able to go up 5 -10 engine sizes 25-50 but a TW at 375 is pretty much maxed out and should stay at or below 385 and not be able to go below 350.

97 kph for any light is stupid slow

That's why I think it should be + or - 25 rating.

Could be implemented with just the Stock Engine, Stock+25, Stock-25 or they could include all the engines inbetween.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adamski, on 26 March 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

I'm not sure what it is you are not understanding.

Timberwolf / Stormcrow / Ebon Jaguar / Shadow Cat / Arctic Cheetah

They all have cXL, cEndo, cFerro

Unlocking the mechlab will not help them, unless they get unlocked engines too (I think a restricton of within 25 engine rating of their default engine is fair)

Mechs it will help: Kit Fox, Adder, Mist Lynx, Nova, Ice Ferret, Summoner, Hell Bringer, Mad Dog, Gargoyle (might help the Warhawk, Direwolf, they are mostly more space constrained than weight constrained).

The big bonus is this is a huge buff to Clans, but doesn't buff the strong mechs AT ALL. But it does mean that if/when they decide to nerf the cGauss it wont hurt underperforming mechs, because there aren't any.

that would be the confusion. When people on here have been talking "unlocking", usually the engine is the first thing they are talking about.

And as long as they can swap omni pods, it's the last thing that should be unlockable.

I don't think JJs should be either, but then, i'm not a big fan of it on IS mechs, either.

[Koniving]

At this point I stopped caring what PGI is doing.
They have a shovel.
They're digging.

Let 'em dig. They can pretend they're dwarves all they want.
I'll be over here with a rope when they're done.

(That... some 4,000 times, is about how long it'll take PGI to realize what they're doing. Hopefully they won't go the way of the Hawken and MWTactics by then).

To note:

Spoiler

I don't like how PGI is going about the Clan ST thing. From the get go I think they should have specifically gone with the source material; two crits = a heat generation of +1 heat per second [or +10 heat per 10 seconds], and that would have been more than enough.

Reduction in engine performance? I could see that, though a ridiculous percentage is a bit much and to have it exclusively to Clans rather than with a proper crit system afflicting Both sides, is really poor.

Are you saying that my IS engine is so much superior to a Clan engine that mine doesn't slow down or heat up from damage? Why is my superior IS mechs so capable while the Clans are trash -- whose only benefits are longer range with laser vomit builds that had PGI designed this stuff right from the get-go would NOT be so effective -- are getting the crap end of the stick?

I have an engine too. It has crits. Why no crits? Why no penalties for me and my IS mech?

Why do Clans get to have some 'hint' of realism while I get the 'zomg its a game' arcade experience? I wanted a god damn sim like what MWO claimed it would be. Like it started out as.

It irks me so bad that PGI keeps catering to kids with problems grasping balance using something more complex than "point the mouse on the bad guy and click." "Is the bad guy too good? We'll place some nerfs on it instead of fixing what game breaking issue is making them unusually easy to play as."

Edited by Koniving, 26 March 2015 - 05:21 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

And yet Koniving, they are not catering to kids, the NPE is way to bad and the overall gameplay is way to much for kiddies to even grasp. ITs why MWO has like no players on it....

Only people we have are mech fans or the few people who thought stompy robots was cool enough to try and stayed....

If this game has a NPE and progression more like a BAttlefield game, that is Kiddie favorable.

[Adamski]

TT has 10 heat per turn after you lose 2 engine crits, and if you are at 10 heat at the end of your turn you lose 2 movement.

MWO has you lose 20% of engine heatsinks after losing 2 engine crits (on an cXL400 that's 3.2 DHS or 6.4 heat per turn) and 20% movement (each movement point is worth 10.8 Kph) so for the 20% to match the TT penalty would require you to move at ~108 Kph.

Which means its easier on the slower & hotter builds than TT would be, but harsher on the faster builds but not by any huge margin.

Edited by Adamski, 26 March 2015 - 06:13 PM.

[Pjwned]

CHH Badkarma, on 25 March 2015 - 10:53 PM, said:

Honestly, if clans had the choice to run different engines like IS do, I would not care so much. IS mech jocks can choose to run a fragile engine, knowing full well what the effects can be. Clan pilots have no such choice. All this punishing clan pilots for having XL locked engines that they cannot change is about as logical as a parent punishing a child for being born the gender other than what they wanted.

Clan XL engines are still pretty solid even if they would have a(n appropriate) speed penalty on side torso loss, but I would be fine with clans having an option for standard engines if the downsides of having a torso blown off is something to actually consider (like how it should be) and possibly give up tonnage to avoid. I don't think that the lack of engine choice would justify holding off on the extra penalty though.

CrushLibs, on 26 March 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

on the clans are OP side discussion

IS gets some of the following advantages:
1. engine swapping
2. armor swapping
3. endo swapping
4. pin point ballastic
5. longer SRM range 34 - 39m extra (depending on quirks)
6. much longer ER laser range (depending on quirks)
7. much longer EP PPC range (depending on quirks)
8. shorter laser duration
9. Better heat to damage DPH
10. Better ghost heat -- 3 LL vs 2LL
11. No ghost heat -- AC2,5,10,guass,LBX10,UAC5,Med Pulse L,Small pulse L, small L
12. Faster cool down times + quirks too
13. multi light mechs with 150 kph top speeds
14. removable JJs
15. smaller hit boxes
16. top mounted weapons vs arm (ie TDR , Jeg , stalker , etc)
17. faster assualts , med and lights
18. lower heat generation up to -50%

I could list more but need an eye opener look at the quirks http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ght_innersphere

Clans

1. longer med laser range
2. longer small laser range
3. faster heavy mechs
4. no death on XL engine
5. TW JJ hit boxes needs fixing

Hummm Yep clans are OP with their two mechs the hot ass TW and the SC

Take off the rose colored glasses , put down the bong or crack pipe and stop saying clans are OP when its clearly not true.

On the hitbox discussion add the Spider and Shadow Hawk to the list of broken mechs

You're forgetting about a dozen other advantages for clans, and several of those IS advantages you listed are basically nothing or even just misleading and wrong.

Edited by Pjwned, 26 March 2015 - 08:33 PM.

[Pjwned]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

Put an XL400 in your DS and max your armor, you are not allowed endo. Stare at what that gets you long and hard.

Then remember, all the screwing you do to clans now, you will get back when IS omnis come and do not get clan XL engines...but LFEs instead.

Mcgral18, on 26 March 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

Correction, a select FEW Clam mechs have weight savings.

Nova has 5 tons less pod space than the same STANDARD engine Hunchback. That's because it has neither Endo nor Ferro, with hardwired equipment. If it had Endo, it could move to an XL300, put 2 DHS in there, and lose three crit slots and half a ton, moving to a more favourable 15 tons even (which helps with heatsinks, and avoid stripping a half ton of armour).


There isn't a single optimal Clan mech. SCR could move down to a 325 and gain a half ton, at the expense of 2 Kph. Nor can it store any DHS inside the engine.
TimberWolf is probably the closest, it has both Endo+Ferro, no needless hardwired equipment, and all the DHS are stored in the engine. Probably better using a XL350 with 14 DHS in the engine, with 33 tons to play with, while moving 83Kph.


Of course, Clams are stuck with TT construction rules, unlike IS gundams.

Part of that has to do with upgrades being poorly balanced, there shouldn't be situations like the Mad Dog and Summoner where they have Ferro Fibrous armor instead of Endo Steel structure and it's a complete waste, there should be something to make that appealing in some way like an increased armor cap. Standard structure is also just generally worthless and needs some sort of buff as well, and that would help mechs like the Nova.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pjwned, on 26 March 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:

Part of that has to do with upgrades being poorly balanced, there shouldn't be situations like the Mad Dog and Summoner where they have Ferro Fibrous armor instead of Endo Steel structure and it's a complete waste, there should be something to make that appealing in some way like an increased armor cap. Standard structure is also just generally worthless and needs some sort of buff as well, and that would help mechs like the Nova.

gotta blame the source material for that man.

The absolute worst thing that seems to happen on these thread is people coming in banging a drum for change, only to flat out admit they got no clue about the IP, and are just looking out for how to make it a better generic stompy robot FPS.

Not saying changes don't have to be made for balance sake, mechanics reality, etc. But I mean, PGI didn't design the Mad Dog or Summoner. (They just insist on keeping the Summoner a second class citizen)

[Pjwned]

Koniving, on 26 March 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

I don't like how PGI is going about the Clan ST thing. From the get go I think they should have specifically gone with the source material; two crits = a heat generation of +1 heat per second [or +10 heat per 10 seconds], and that would have been more than enough.

Reduction in engine performance? I could see that, though a ridiculous percentage is a bit much and to have it exclusively to Clans rather than with a proper crit system afflicting Both sides, is really poor.

Are you saying that my IS engine is so much superior to a Clan engine that mine doesn't slow down or heat up from damage? Why is my superior IS mechs so capable while the Clans are trash -- whose only benefits are longer range with laser vomit builds that had PGI designed this stuff right from the get-go would NOT be so effective -- are getting the crap end of the stick?

I have an engine too. It has crits. Why no crits? Why no penalties for me and my IS mech?

Why do Clans get to have some 'hint' of realism while I get the 'zomg its a game' arcade experience? I wanted a god damn sim like what MWO claimed it would be. Like it started out as.

It irks me so bad that PGI keeps catering to kids with problems grasping balance using something more complex than "point the mouse on the bad guy and click." "Is the bad guy too good? We'll place some nerfs on it instead of fixing what game breaking issue is making them unusually easy to play as."

I'm going to ask this again because people keep bringing it up yet my response has been ignored multiple times.

Why do people keep getting hung up on this? If your IS XL mech's side torso is taking critical damage then that means imminent death from side torso loss anyways, so the complaint is that you don't see IS XL mechs occasionally taking a penalty shortly before their side torso is blown off and their mech is destroyed.

Is it ideal if mechs are not actually affected by engine crits and we have IS XL mechs running around with critical damage that should maybe be dealing with heat and speed loss? No, it's not ideal. Is it such a big deal that it makes much sense to get hung up on it and complain about how unfair it is? No, absolutely not, because unlike clan mechs your mech is going to be destroyed any moment from the side torso being shot off, meanwhile clan mechs keep on going so obviously an appropriate penalty for losing part of their engine is pretty damn important.

You know what's a lot more unfair than IS XL mechs not dealing with engine crit penalties when occasionally they should be? Clan mechs running around with 20% of their engine gone and barely any penalty to show for it, yet people keep throwing a fit about this and going BLUH BLUH UNFAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! while ignoring the huge advantage their clan mechs have in this regard.

Prove me wrong.

Gyrok, on 26 March 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

IS have LFEs coming at some point, plus Omnimechs in the future that incorporate those LFEs into the builds.

In fact, some IS Omnimechs have regular IS XLs too. So the harder you push to nerf clans, the more obsolete you make your own future tech to the battlemechs you have now.

Who would drive a Templar with a regular IS XL playing by omnimech construction rules as they are? The Templar is even one of the better Omnimechs in the 3055-3060 tech era...

I can only imagine the whining and crying coming from clan players if LFEs were introduced without a suitable penalty for side torso loss.

Edited by Pjwned, 26 March 2015 - 09:39 PM.

[Pjwned]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

gotta blame the source material for that man.

The absolute worst thing that seems to happen on these thread is people coming in banging a drum for change, only to flat out admit they got no clue about the IP, and are just looking out for how to make it a better generic stompy robot FPS.

Not saying changes don't have to be made for balance sake, mechanics reality, etc. But I mean, PGI didn't design the Mad Dog or Summoner. (They just insist on keeping the Summoner a second class citizen)

I realize the source material is to blame, I'm just saying that while those sorts of mech designs may have worked in Tabletop they clearly don't work too well in this game because it leaves mechs to be inferior, and without balancing factors such as BV that is obviously pretty undesirable and indicates something should be changed.

[Koniving]

Pjwned, on 26 March 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

You know what's a lot more unfair than IS XL mechs not dealing with engine crit penalties when occasionally they should be? Clan mechs running around with a side torso lost with barely any penalty to show for it, yet people keep throwing a fit about this and going BLUH BLUH UNFAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! while ignoring the huge advantage their clan mechs have in this regard.

You missed a big chunk of my point then.

Right now they lose 40% of their engine cooling ability in addition to all heatsinks removed at the time of death. Okay so Timber Wolf:
That's 2.7 h/s cooling from the engine - 40% (that is 1.08 h/s) = 1.62 h/s left. Now the typical laser vomit build is actually 4.1 h/s cooling - 1.08 h/s cooling. So, yeah.. Pretty negligible even if the actual loss is a bit more due to losing heatsinks.

Admittedly for the Timber Wolf, his penalty in my ideal scenario would only be a constant, non-stop rise in 1 heat every second. No matter what he is doing so long as he is on he must always fight against 1 heat every single second. Even if he isn't fighting, isn't moving, etc. So long as he is powered on.

The same should be true for engine crits on IS mechs.

But, as I mentioned in the past, furthermore you should be able to do acquire these crits without even having to destroy his ST. For example if you damaged 2 crits on his CT, and only shot his CT, you'd punish him like this. Even more ideal, you should be able to acquire through-armor-criticals, particularly if your weapon meets the requirement of a penetration rating of 10 (to any mech's Barrier Armor Rating of 10).

In other words, IS mechs using AC/10s, AC/20s, Gauss Rifles and PPCs should be able to pierce through armor for a through armor critical (chance) on each hit. Clan mechs would only be able to acquire these through Gauss Rifles and ER PPCs.

Voila, huge IS advantages. What's more, unless they start loading themselves with some serious crit soaker builds, Timber Wolves with their giant front torsos sporting 98% or more of their total armor will find themselves dying without ever losing ANY side torso.

And you're crying because you think a Clan mech isn't fair? You should try driving one where you will realize that a Timber Wolf is a lot like playing a Dragon with hitboxes the size of the old school Awesome -- except that people can hit the back of a Dragon and generally can't possibly touch the backside of a Timber Wolf (due to its twisting range and speed). So people just exploit the hitboxes. I never run mine anymore with more than 2 rear armor, and can often get completely surrounded and still have full rear armor to 'yellow' in the end.

An engine nerf won't do anything to fix the source of the problem. The problem being that certain Clan mechs have extremely exploitable hitboxes that you can just pile armor onto.

But a proper crit system, through armor crits, and a constant heat rise as opposed to a slap on the wrist cooling issue definitely will be a better bandaid since we know PGI is incapable of fixing the cause of any game balance problem.

Edited by Koniving, 26 March 2015 - 09:46 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Pjwned, on 26 March 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

I realize the source material is to blame, I'm just saying that while those sorts of mech designs may have worked in Tabletop they clearly don't work too well in this game because it leaves mechs to be inferior, and without balancing factors such as BV that is obviously pretty undesirable and indicates something should be changed.

As you said the Summoner with out a Bv system (thx to is jj to keep them high) that Mech was also second class in Tt - and those jj in Tt where usually your biggest asset - even the 2 Jjs on urbanmech or Gunslinger were worth more as even 5 in MWo
Exception the Class 4 JJs for Medium Mechs

[Pjwned]

Koniving, on 26 March 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

You missed a big chunk of my point then.

Right now they lose 40% of their engine cooling ability in addition to all heatsinks removed at the time of death. Okay so Timber Wolf:
That's 2.7 h/s cooling from the engine - 40% (that is 1.08 h/s) = 1.62 h/s left. Now the typical laser vomit build is actually 4.1 h/s cooling - 1.08 h/s cooling. So, yeah.. Pretty negligible even if the actual loss is a bit more due to losing heatsinks.

Admittedly for the Timber Wolf, his penalty in my ideal scenario would only be a constant, non-stop rise in 1 heat every second. No matter what he is doing so long as he is on he must always fight against 1 heat every single second. Even if he isn't fighting, isn't moving, etc. So long as he is powered on.

The same should be true for engine crits on IS mechs.

Okay, well when IS mechs don't die from losing their side torso then I'll consider that a more important issue, but as it is now those engine crit penalties currently only matter for IS XL mechs when they're close to death anyways, and I'm saying that without through-armor crits (because they're not implemented and I doubt they will be) it's not much of a consideration. Additionally, it's not like critical hits affect clan XL engines and not IS engines, the only way that clan XL engines are even affected is if they lose a torso so it's not like the penalty is applied inconsistently.

Quote

But, as I mentioned in the past, furthermore you should be able to do acquire these crits without even having to destroy his ST. For example if you damaged 2 crits on his CT, and only shot his CT, you'd punish him like this. Even more ideal, you should be able to acquire through-armor-criticals, particularly if your weapon meets the requirement of a penetration rating of 10 (to any mech's Barrier Armor Rating of 10).

In other words, IS mechs using AC/10s, AC/20s, Gauss Rifles and PPCs should be able to pierce through armor for a through armor critical (chance) on each hit. Clan mechs would only be able to acquire these through Gauss Rifles and ER PPCs.

Voila, huge IS advantages. What's more, unless they start loading themselves with some serious crit soaker builds, Timber Wolves with their giant front torsos sporting 98% or more of their total armor will find themselves dying without ever losing ANY side torso.

And you're crying because you think a Clan mech isn't fair? You should try driving one where you will realize that a Timber Wolf is a lot like playing a Dragon -- except that people can hit the back of a Dragon. So people just exploit the hitboxes.

That argument hinges on through-armor crits being implemented at all and that is a whole other can of worms, and additionally I don't really see how Inner Sphere mechs having 2 more weapons (in the form of pinpoint AC10 and AC20, and that's it) would be such a huge advantage. I would also like to say that personally I find that example of mechs dying without having their armor even breached sounds pretty stupid to be honest, sounds like an excellent way of making the entire metagame revolve around 4 different weapons i.e boring and stupid.

Quote

An engine nerf won't do anything to fix the source of the problem. But a proper crit system, through armor crits, and a constant heat rise as opposed to a slap on the wrist cooling issue definitely will be a better bandaid since we know PGI is incapable of fixing the cause of any game balance problem.

I really don't see how you can say that an engine nerf won't fix anything because the problem is that clan XL engines are not vulnerable enough, and a nerf in the form of an extra speed penalty addresses that. You can argue that perhaps your solution is better (most of which I don't agree with) but saying it wouldn't fix anything is inaccurate.

Edited by Pjwned, 26 March 2015 - 10:22 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Pjwned, on 26 March 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

I'm going to ask this again because people keep bringing it up yet my response has been ignored multiple times.

Why do people keep getting hung up on this? If your IS XL mech's side torso is taking critical damage then that means imminent death from side torso loss anyways, so the complaint is that you don't see IS XL mechs occasionally taking a penalty shortly before their side torso is blown off and their mech is destroyed.

Is it ideal if mechs are not actually affected by engine crits and we have IS XL mechs running around with critical damage that should maybe be dealing with heat and speed loss? No, it's not ideal. Is it such a big deal that it makes much sense to get hung up on it and complain about how unfair it is? No, absolutely not, because unlike clan mechs your mech is going to be destroyed any moment from the side torso being shot off, meanwhile clan mechs keep on going so obviously an appropriate penalty for losing part of their engine is pretty damn important.

You know what's a lot more unfair than IS XL mechs not dealing with engine crit penalties when occasionally they should be? Clan mechs running around with 20% of their engine gone and barely any penalty to show for it, yet people keep throwing a fit about this and going BLUH BLUH UNFAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! while ignoring the huge advantage their clan mechs have in this regard.

Prove me wrong.



I can only imagine the whining and crying coming from clan players if LFEs were introduced without a suitable penalty for side torso loss.

100% right. This is why IS XL should do a shutdown on side torso loss instead of insta BOOM. Then if they get a chance to start up again, how ever unlikely, they will suffer the same 20% speed loss as Omni XL's do. Clan still have their easy mode engine that doesnt have much of a penalty. Meanwhile IS XL's have a much needed improvement. This is the way it will probly be done when all is said and done.

The question is, what kind of bonus should the IS standard engine get?

Edited by Johnny Z, 26 March 2015 - 10:07 PM.

[CHH Badkarma]

Johnny Z, on 26 March 2015 - 09:59 PM, said:

100% right. This is why IS XL should do a shutdown on side torso loss instead of insta BOOM. Then if they get a chance to start up again, how ever unlikely, they will suffer the same 20% speed loss as Omni XL's do. Clan still have their easy mode engine that doesnt have much of a penalty. Meanwhile IS XL's have a much needed improvement. This is the way it will probly be done when all is said and done.

The question is, what kind of bonus should the IS standard engine get?

ya know I actually like that shutdown idea. Sudden shock to the system, engine resets and marches on.

[BreakinStuff]

The hilarity of the clan mechs is that there is a certain expectation on the part of a large portion of the playerbase that a mech that costs 50% more than an IS counterpart should have a certain level of pay to win factor.

No I am not pointing fingers. This is an observation, not an accusation, born of watching gamers in general.

having asymmetry in mech power by faction wouldn't be a problem if there was a solid balance factor. Unfortunately PGI opted for balance by tonnage. Which is a joke because pound for pound clan mechs are just overall better. A 75 ton IS mech is not the equal of a timber wolf.

The nerf/buff crap does nothing to preserve the asymmetry but if you make the clans perfectly even with the IS, why does a 4 mech clan pack cost 120 versus a four mech IS pavpack costing 80?

If asymmetry can be preserved while offering balanced engagements, great. But even tonnage will never, ever be the answer.

[Adamski]

Clan mechs don't require upgrades, IS mechs do, that's why they cost more up front.

[Gyrok]

Johnny Z, on 26 March 2015 - 09:59 PM, said:

100% right. This is why IS XL should do a shutdown on side torso loss instead of insta BOOM. Then if they get a chance to start up again, how ever unlikely, they will suffer the same 20% speed loss as Omni XL's do. Clan still have their easy mode engine that doesnt have much of a penalty. Meanwhile IS XL's have a much needed improvement. This is the way it will probly be done when all is said and done.

The question is, what kind of bonus should the IS standard engine get?

You mean you self entitled IS whiners want what is already the most durable engine in the entire game to get a bonus? WTF?

By that logic, what kind of bonus should Clan XLs get, since they are the second most durable engine, it should be a bigger bonus than the IS STD right?

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

You mean you self entitled IS whiners want what is already the most durable engine in the entire game to get a bonus? WTF?

By that logic, what kind of bonus should Clan XLs get, since they are the second most durable engine, it should be a bigger bonus than the IS STD right?

While I see no need for the STD to get any "xtras", I'd have to point out that the being half the weight of a std, AND not dying to ST destruction, is a pretty big bonus, already.......

[Gyrok]

Pjwned, on 26 March 2015 - 09:54 PM, said:

That argument hinges on through-armor crits being implemented at all and that is a whole other can of worms, and additionally I don't really see how Inner Sphere mechs having 2 more weapons (in the form of pinpoint AC10 and AC20, and that's it) would be such a huge advantage. I would also like to say that personally I find that example of mechs dying without having their armor even breached sounds pretty stupid to be honest, sounds like an excellent way of making the entire metagame revolve around 4 different weapons i.e boring and stupid.



I really don't see how you can say that an engine nerf won't fix anything because the problem is that clan XL engines are not vulnerable enough, and a nerf in the form of an extra speed penalty addresses that. You can argue that perhaps your solution is better (most of which I don't agree with) but saying it wouldn't fix anything is inaccurate.

The TW has terrible hit boxes, seriously.

The CTF has similar size STs and the TW has a Catapult nose to add to it making them ever easier to hit from the side profile.

EDIT: CXL engines *are* vulnerable enough. Your issue is that you do not have LFEs yet. Bring those in, with Endo you have a CXL basically...

Edited by Gyrok, 27 March 2015 - 06:02 AM.