218 replies to this topic

[Daniel Wraith]

Alot of the Unseen mech got the OG company to battletech sued into the ground

Id like to see some revisions to the unseen mechs as most were stolen from robotevh an other anime mechas

[Vladdimir Bakorovich]

to be honest i dont care what it takes to get the mechs in the game, change the model a little change the name a little.... the company that holds the original patent (or what ever) can suck it... just get the mechs in the game. I thought this was a stupid arguement when it came out years ago, just someone trying to milk the last cent out of something

[Iron Horse]

Lykaon, on 02 July 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Not sure if someone else hit on this but...

Waaay back when FASA put out Battledroids (had to change the name George Lucas fussed over the use of "droids" ) that needed giant robots so...

FASA shopped out to a Japanese plastic model kit company (forget the name and I'm to lazy to fact check right now).

Now this company granted the use of the images of several mecha for FASA's renamed Battletech game (like the rename over battledroids anyhow)

Along comes Harmony Gold who was granted the North American license rights to import a bunch of anime shows that became Robotech in the U.S.(an in doing also had the rights to the images of several unseen)

Harmony Gold did not actually jump right on FASA for copyright violations this came later.The lawsuits actually came about when FASA sued Playmates a toy company that was producing toys for exo squad and under licence from HG repackaged macross mecha.
It seems some point prior to Playmates deal with HG they were approached by FASA to make Battletech toys,Playmates declined and apparently shortly after started kicking out exo squad toys thus the FASA vs Playmates suit. (FASA vs Playmates favored Playmates but FASA was not cited for paying legal fees to Playmates so it was a soft loss)

So...Harmony Gold counter sues FASA for the use of unseen mechs this legal battle was dragging on and on (FASA had secured use rights for images but not from HG,HG claimed exclusive rights bla bla ..so on)

HG VS FASA ended in an out of court settlement .the terms of this settlement were never made public.All we know is post settlement FASA pulled all Macross related designs and all the other images/designs licenced from that Japanese model export company that I can't for the life of me remember.

So that is where we are. The fate of the unseen seem to be wraped up in that undisclosed out of court settlement.Battletech changed hands FASA to Fanpro to Catalyst and no unseen.even Catalyst's TRO 3039 lacked the reseen images of the questionable unseen.

The issue is a tangle of international copyright and licensing law and how that mystery settlement between FASA and HG effects the new license holders for Battletech.And I can't even begin to guess...

Thanks for the info! I had read bits and pieces of this story before in the past, but its nice to have it consolidated on the MWO forums.

As for the reseens:
Auuughhhhhhh! Kill them with fire!

There's something about the originals that I really just love. Maybe the sweeping curves and long straight lines, or inherent grace of the more utilitarian look. It could be just nostalgia, but as a fan of military hardware in general doubt that's the case. My favorite (besides the Warhammer and Marauder) is the Locust. Those impossibly skinny legs and tiny cockpit port just seem to reflect its function (even though it wasn't even for humans to pilot in the source material (I'm actually not sure about this, but just going by Robotech, which itself is an amalgamation of three different japanese mangas from everything I've read and heard)).
To me the reseen just look like they're trying too hard to not look like the originals, as if someone just covered them up with seven layers of armor and called it a day. My vote is that FD does new re-seens or even redesigns these 'mechs from the ground up.

P.S. Just based on how strong my own feelings are on this, I can already tell this is going to be a can of worms for PGI. I hope they make the right decisions for the game regarding these designs, but at the same time I'm sure they will.

Edited by Iron Horse, 03 July 2012 - 09:39 AM.

[Bjorn2bwild]

The basic jist of this whole thing is that Fasa approached Playmates about making Battletech toys as well as a Battletech TV series. Playmates said "nope" then developed Exo Squad which shared some general similarities with the Battletech universe. Fasa thought there was enough there to warrant a lawsuit. The courts said otherwise.

The HG v Fasa lawsuit was sort of a counterattack to the first lawsuit. HG and Playmates had ties through producing models from the Robotech line as part of the Exo Squad line.

It's interesting to note that at no time did Fasa believe that they were in the wrong because they had secured rights from the model company in Japan. Unfortunately, Fasa didn't know that HG had acquired exclusivity for macross IP and either the model company also didn't know or didn't care. Kind of like "Well, we can use these already and we're ok with you using them, so you're good". The problem was that the model company wasn't in a position to say that with regards to the American market. Fasa thought they had done everything right and hadn't explicitly attempted to steal anyone's IP.

For anyone who wants further reading on the subject, here are the documents involving Fasa v Playmates and HG vs FASA

http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/

[Melcyna]

Iron Horse, on 03 July 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

My favorite (besides the Warhammer and Marauder) is the Locust. Those impossibly skinny legs and tiny cockpit port just seem to reflect its function (even though it wasn't even for humans to pilot in the source material (I'm actually not sure about this, but just going by Robotech, which itself is an amalgamation of three different japanese mangas from everything I've read and heard)).

Locust came from Ostall which is a mech from Crusher Joe...

It was not part of the 3 anime that constitutes Robotech.

Robotech instead was made of:
Macross (where VF-1, and all the destroid inspired mech came from including Warhammer, Longbow, Archer, Riflemen)
Genesis Climber Mospeada (none of which were used in BT iirc)
Southern Cross (again none of it's design were used in BT, which was actually a pity, i liked the hover tanks in Southern Cross a lot)

Neither is Dougram part of Robotech either,

from which FASA took the design for:
Shadow Hawk, Battlemaster, Wolverine, etc...

But FASA pulled them out anyway, probably to avoid being drawn into possible lawsuit by other company...

[Hanged Man]

I voted for the originals. Most of the reseen art is actually quite good - the Griffin and Archer in particular, I think, are actually improvements - but I'm a Warhammer devotee and the Reseen version is horrifying. I wouldn't be sad to see another revamp courtesy of the guys working on the already-released mechs though, I think they've done great.

[Grotonomus]

There are some of the reseens I really like. For instance the Stinger, Wasp, Griffin, Battlemaster, Wolverine and the Osts.
And others I just think look ugly Warhammer, Marauder, Locust, Rifleman.
So it really isn't that cut and dry for me I guess.

[Project_Mercy]

Most of the reseen are fugly. I don't think we're going to see the unseen, but I'd rather PGI just redesign them by someone who isn't blind and/or doesn't warm to the idea of driving around a clown car.

[Kaelin]

one of the troubles with 'interpreting' the old designs is this;

as per the lore:

the IS nomenclature for one Clan Timberwolf = the Madcat.

this was given its name by IS pilots who described it as looking like a cross between a MARAUDER and a Catapult.

to change the arms on the marauder would be to change the name of the Madcat.

[Spleenslitta]

I want the reseen but they must be given the Alex treatment first.

[Azzras]

I prefer most of the reseen designs.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I would rather see FD's take on the originals rather than a revamp of the reseen with sufficient changes made. One thing that has changed in the intervening years is the continuing output of mecha and "mechs" of various sorts, many of which bear a fair resemblance to a number of the Unseen. Some of the clips from Hawken look like Valkyries or Phoenix Hawks. It may be of course that HGs agreement runs out soon and PGI are waiting for that.

[Dual Face]

I've never been much of a fan for the other unseen battlemechs besides the warhammer. I would love to see the "unseen" warhammer

[Schtirlitz]

Design of all machinery changes with time.
Why stick to old ones? Let's go with new!

[RedHellion]

Reseens I prefer (or don't mind):
Griffin
Rifleman (close call on this one: I prefer the original arm style)
Archer
Stinger
Battlemaster (shoulders look odd though)
Ostscout
Ostroc
Wasp
Valkyrie
Phoenix Hawk
Longbow

Originals I prefer:
Locust
Warhammer (classic design: reseen isn't bad but it's too different)
Marauder (you can't get rid of that distinctive torso and arm style)
Shadow Hawk
Wolverine

[Littlegob]

I'd live with the re-seen, even if for nostalgy reasons I still prefer the original designs

[Project_Mercy]

Copyright infringement is as much about intent as specifics. In the case of a visual work, there's no definitive method for determining infringement. In the case of games like Hawken, even though you could draw specifics back to it, it's an up-hill fight to prove infringement. In the case of a BattleTech game with a (take a Warhammer), where there's clear-cut historical infringement. If you made minor changes to it, it would be easier to convince someone that it's still in violation.

Project Phoenix had (roughly) the right idea. You take the design elements of the initial mechs, and you use those as basis for designing a new mech. The issue was, the person they had designing it was (IMO) not very good at making cool mecha. I'm pretty sure I could go down to Akihabara, find some kid with a sketch pad, show him the Macross mecha, and say "making something like this, but cooler" and I'd have some new Reseen for the price of a bento and a coffee.

[templar]

As a player from way back in the day, I prefer the unseens. I think the reseens would be great...as different mechs. I would like to see updates of the unseens like the way they did the Warhammer in the trailer. Just my two cents.

[WraithTR1]

Out of the Reseen the only ones I really liked over the Unseen were the Ost series of mechs. The Griffin, Archer, Longbow, and Battlemaster were ok they mostly kept the overall appearance of the original designs. The rest were just horrible.

[TheExecuter]

Unseen!