263 replies to this topic

[Reitrix]

Averen, on 03 April 2015 - 02:53 AM, said:

You're really trying to make this a game of 'my mech is more broken than yours'? You win, dires are. Kinda pathetic tho.

Some people actually don't play only broken mechs and learn tactics. Ofc course i can hide my CT. For example behind buildings. Superior mobility and the need of only showing a fraction of a mech to do instant pinpoint damage is the advantage of a misery, and that's the IS best way to take care of dires (crabs can use similar strategies).
Of course a dire is still stronger, takes no effort and further ranging. I've seen people with controllers pull of 1k damage matches.

No, i was more trying to point out that a 20 ~ 40 point alpha with extreme range limitations is by no means OP nor Meta.
(Also if you're hiding your CT behind a building, how are you going to shoot me? )

Boosting PPC velocity baselines allows ALL Energy only 'Mechs to benefit from the weapon.
It does nothing to existing builds, nor will it bring back poptarting and the old PPC+Ballistic Meta precisely because that Meta was before Clan Tech and Quirks shifting the focus to Laser Vomit.
Laser Vomit will always be superior to a PPC build, even if we boosted the velocity and reduced the heat.

So why do we not have working PPCs? Misplaced fear of an old Meta.

Edited by Reitrix, 03 April 2015 - 03:02 AM.

[Averen]

Reitrix, on 03 April 2015 - 03:01 AM, said:

No, i was more trying to point out that a 20 ~ 40 point alpha with extreme range limitations is by no means OP nor Meta.
(Also if you're hiding your CT behind a building, how are you going to shoot me? )

Boosting PPC velocity baselines allows ALL Energy only 'Mechs to benefit from the weapon.
It does nothing to existing builds, nor will it bring back poptarting and the old PPC+Ballistic Meta precisely because that Meta was before Clan Tech and Quirks shifting the focus to Laser Vomit.
Laser Vomit will always be superior to a PPC build, even if we boosted the velocity and reduced the heat.

So why do we not have working PPCs? Misplaced fear of an old Meta.

PPCs are still part of the meta. Why? Because they have their use. If you just want to look someone into the face and mash buttons, then Lasers will always be the better choice. They should be the better choice in that case.

[oldradagast]

PPC's are in a bad place now. The only mechs that use them are ones with good PPC quirks, which means the weapon has problems.

1) They should fly a bit faster. The normal PPC has the same speed as an AC10, which is not that fast. ERPPC's are faster, though under an AC5. Personally, I'd get them both to about the same speed, about half-way between an AC5 and an AC 10.

2) Hitboxes are strange. PPC's seem to explode when just getting near terrain, but also seem far pickier when trying to hit a mech.

3) PPC's need the minimum range silliness removed. It simply feels wrong that this big gun can't deal damage to targets under 90m away... .somehow, the giant bolt of plasma does nothing as it hits you, which is nuts. Imagine if all weapons went from full damage to 0 as soon as they went outside optimal range - it would look and feel wrong, and that's what we have here. The fact that players need to take backup weapons to cover close-in combat after already committing tonnage and heatsinks to the PPC's is a good reason they are not used. Meanwhile, the Large Pulse Laser does more damage for less heat and has no minimum range.

Simple fix: Restore the old scaling damage mechanic that used to exist for PPC's under 90m. It's not going to turn a PPC boat into a brawler, but it will get rid of that odd close-range blind-spot that makes no sense.

Edited by oldradagast, 03 April 2015 - 03:29 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I dunno if I would tweak PPCs that much, maybe a small 50 to 100 m/s boost at most.

IMHO the issue is with our Heat System.

If anything, we could use tweaks to Heat Sinks, they should at least keep better pace with our current rate of fire and not raise our heat cap (or possibly as much as a trade off).

I'd look to have SHS dissipate at 0.25 each so that 10 SHS can completely handle a single PPC being fired by a stationary mech on a heat neutral map. This way it can scale so that 20 can handle two and so on.

I'd test out DHS at 0.5 were 15 DHS could handle 2 ER PPCs on a heat neutral map from a stationary mech, for example.

Next I'd set a low value for Capacity so that mechs that stack tons of Heat Sinks are not able to raise that value much, so for example setting Capacity to around 0.1, would only grant an increase of 1 point every 10 Heat Sinks, so 28 SHS grants a new total of 32.8, where 20 DHS grant a new total of 32.

After that, I'd simply restore the heat generated from Lasers so that ER Larges are back up to 12 heat each, for example.

[xe N on]

PPC could be a nice utility weapon. Currently, they already removing ECM for some seconds. In addition, they should make the enemy mechs's hud flicker and reduce their speed by 25%.

[Y E O N N E]

Pjwned, on 03 April 2015 - 12:01 AM, said:

Firing delay is an absolutely terrible idea on any weapon.

Seems to work just fine on the Gauss, and that one has to be held by the user. MWO is not the unique in featuring firing delays of any sort on some of its weapons. It's a mechanic that adds, at the very least, some character quirks to weapons and can also be used to modify its risk/reward ratio by raising the skill floor.

The reason PPCs were such a pain before is that they were low risk, high reward.

So, yeah, no. Not that awful. Might be a pain in the butt to have to retrain our reflexes, but I am okay with that.

And think of it this way; charge on the PPC, get rid of charge on Gauss. There was much rejoicing!

[Averen]

Oh god, please no PPC charge. That would be a pain to deal with. Gauß-charge is only ok because it's an actual sniper weapon and the AC20 is it's close combat counterpart. A PPC doesn't have such a thing, its a midrange weapons.

Edited by Averen, 03 April 2015 - 05:46 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeah no charge on PPCs. There is absolutely no reason to do that.

Averen, the Misery build is good but it has its limitations. Beyond 300 m its firepower drops off quickly, as it does below 90 m. That means its effective ranges are between90 and 300m (maybe 350 but still doing less damage).

Also, because PPCs are effective on a Mech with very good hotboxes and high mounted hardpoints doesn't mean they are in a good place. I didn't see any PPCs when I was watching a few Empyreal RHoD clips, that should probably tell you something.

Oh and BTW, if you have want to take it another way and that is a top build, then OMG it needs to be brought in line! Better speed up PPCs to de-sync them from the AC 20.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 April 2015 - 10:07 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Averen, on 03 April 2015 - 03:14 AM, said:

PPCs are still part of the meta. Why? Because they have their use. If you just want to look someone into the face and mash buttons, then Lasers will always be the better choice. They should be the better choice in that case.

Yeah no, they are definitely not.

[Novawrecker]

Averen, on 02 April 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

Why are some people here talking about 'bringing back ppcs'? You can't seriously believe normal ppcs are bad?

While chosen over IS ERPPCs, PPCs aren't exactly the greatest weapon out there. Granted, they have their uses, but atm Lasers are much more effective.

[LordKnightFandragon]

MischiefSC, on 02 April 2015 - 08:39 PM, said:

If PPC speed is anything like AC5 speed, you get the PPC/ERPP+AC5 meta back. Instantly.

If ERPPC speed is high enough to make them extremely accurate at 500m+, they replace lasers. Instantly, because PPFLD > DoT.

We already did this. With the Thudders. The moment you make PPCs a viable primary weapon they obsolete every other weapon, because 400-800m PPFLD that's 1000m/s+ accurate > anything and everything else. That's why AC5s are the favored AC, not AC10s or 20s. Range and accuracy. So much so that it's worth taking 22 tons of weapon + ammo. The moment you provide something comparable for 7 tons and 3 crits, even if it's slower firing and more heat, you just put the ultimate best weapon in the game.

I get the desire to have an ultimate PPFLD long range unlimited ammo weapon that will work on any size of mech from lights to assaults and can be boated on nearly anything, but we've already done it. Repeatedly, in several different ways.

Because of the advantage of PPFLD and high accuracy PPC (and gauss) need to be kept to a niche or they invalidate every other weapon. Like they have every time they didn't have limitations keeping them largely in a niche.

Yeah, but the way they are now, they are niche, as being the worst weapon in the game......maybe in 3rd after Flamers and MGs......hence why you see almost no PPCs on mechs, aside from people who are uber, or people who dont have a clue...

Yeonne Greene, on 02 April 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

I would like:

PPC

• 10 damage
  
• 8 heat
  
• 1200 m/s
  
• 0.3s firing delay
  
• 3.5s cool-down
  
• 90 m minimum range

ER PPC

• 10 damage
  
• 10 heat
  
• 1500 m/s
  
• 0.25s firing delay
  
• 4s cool-down

C-ER PPC

• 15 damage
  
• 15 heat
  
• 1500 m/s
  
• 0.2s firing delay
  
• 4.5s cool-down

Try it, tweak as necessary, but I think I'd enjoy it.

Oh god, firing delay? That is almost worse then charge mechanic......no matter how minor it is.

[kapusta11]

Even LL is better than PPC and you can pack 3 of those.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Ok, yeah, I cant even see why this is an arguement. PPCs need ***** buffs.....

Its goddamn sad to see these things in game.

JUst now, the velocity wouldnt allow me to hit a stormcrow walking up a hill like 100m away. Aim at him, fire behind him, lead a bit ahead, it just misses. A ZEU walking in a straight line in front of me, like 75m, I aimed at this LT, trying to hit his CT or RT, like half those shots missed.....Dat ***** velocity.

THen the Damage on them, I couldnt blow off a stripped Red Hellbringer arm in like 3 hits....atleast it can kill a UAV......so since it can do that it must be OP.....

In the end, I got 296dmg........

OMFG, PGI PPCs are the biggest ***** joke in the history of the Mechwarrior idea...

So yeah....1300 velocity, they would become useful, CERPPC, 13 dmg, 15 heat, 4.25s CD, it would be useful.

ISERPPC: 10 dmg, 12 heat, 1300 velocity, 4s CD, it would be a useful gun, atleast it could hit something.

PPC: 10/10, 1225 velocity, 3.5s CD....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 03 April 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[LordMelvin]

I run my Hellbringer prime stock. It's a bit toasty if I hammer away with the PPCs but as long as I pace myself and use the smaller weapons (ERMLs, MGs, and SRMS) I'm fine.

I do agree though that they could be cooled down a bit, in exchange for a longer recharge. It's hard to use them as a primary weapon (on the K2 for example) or on smaller mechs without a buttload of DHS.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeah, wow, if CERPPC became 13/15, 1200 velocity, 4.25s CD, getting damage like a CLPL, they would be nice. Holy ****, LPL are amazing......2 games, 8 kills, ofc, 2 utterly **** teams....but LPL are amazing.

Something is seriously wrong when my match score is 40 higher then the next closest guy, when we get 4 kills and I got the 4 kills....yikes, dem puggies.....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 03 April 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Pjwned]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 April 2015 - 04:57 AM, said:

Seems to work just fine on the Gauss, and that one has to be held by the user. MWO is not the unique in featuring firing delays of any sort on some of its weapons. It's a mechanic that adds, at the very least, some character quirks to weapons and can also be used to modify its risk/reward ratio by raising the skill floor.

Holding a gauss rifle charge is different than a firing delay and I can't think of a single example in another game where a delayed fire mechanic didn't make a weapon be complete ****. You also seem to imply that gauss rifles don't already have "some character quirks" with their current charge mechanic, and I'm confused why you would want to remove that.

Quote

The reason PPCs were such a pain before is that they were low risk, high reward.

So, yeah, no. Not that awful. Might be a pain in the butt to have to retrain our reflexes, but I am okay with that.

And think of it this way; charge on the PPC, get rid of charge on Gauss. There was much rejoicing!

And then gauss rifles are unbalanced again, except even more so than they were before.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 02 April 2015 - 08:39 PM, said:

If PPC speed is anything like AC5 speed, you get the PPC/ERPP+AC5 meta back. Instantly.

If ERPPC speed is high enough to make them extremely accurate at 500m+, they replace lasers. Instantly, because PPFLD > DoT.

We already did this. With the Thudders. The moment you make PPCs a viable primary weapon they obsolete every other weapon, because 400-800m PPFLD that's 1000m/s+ accurate > anything and everything else. That's why AC5s are the favored AC, not AC10s or 20s. Range and accuracy. So much so that it's worth taking 22 tons of weapon + ammo. The moment you provide something comparable for 7 tons and 3 crits, even if it's slower firing and more heat, you just put the ultimate best weapon in the game.

I get the desire to have an ultimate PPFLD long range unlimited ammo weapon that will work on any size of mech from lights to assaults and can be boated on nearly anything, but we've already done it. Repeatedly, in several different ways.

Because of the advantage of PPFLD and high accuracy PPC (and gauss) need to be kept to a niche or they invalidate every other weapon. Like they have every time they didn't have limitations keeping them largely in a niche.

Dude, cmon man. ER PPCs are not going to invalidate ER LL on either side. They are too damn hot. ER LLs are MORE accurate at 1000m because there is no need to lead targets. Standard PPCs would still be pretty slow and clumsy at range at 1150-2000 m/s. PPC/AC5 meta? Guess what, they are already very close in velocity, yet we see no PPC/AC5 meta. You need to lose this irrational fear of PPFLD... 30 damage is not enough compared to the laser vomit/gauss combo that we see today. If PPFLD was so OP then why are there so many laser vomit mechs dominating everywhere? It must not be that hard to hold on target.

I guarantee we will not see ER PPCs invalidate ER LL, the damage to heat ratio is poor. It will have more of a use, but I guarantee you will still see all kinds of laser vomit even if my proposed velocity buffs were enacted.

MischiefSC, on 02 April 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

Hey, I got an idea. Let's give SRMs and LRMs a blast radius, so their damage crosses multiple hitboxes on the same target. Admittedly this will make missiles do absolutely stupid amounts of damage but don't worry - we can prevent the return of the Splatapult (now upgraded to CLAMMER SUPER SPLATTER WOLF/DOG) by giving all missiles an extra 0.5 or even 1 second cooldown! Then it wouldn't be the exact same completely broken and borked thing we had before. TOTALLY.

Nice completely ridiculous over exaggeration.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 April 2015 - 01:10 PM.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

PPC - 10 heat, 540 meter range, 1700 m/s
IS/C ERPPC - 15 heat, 810 meter range, 1900 m/s
IS/C GAUSS - 1 heat, 660 meter range, 2500 m/s
The ppc/erppc should be one of the fastest projectiles in game. Gauss should be even faster.

[Deathlike]

Did people forget that the PPC velocity was cut by 33% (1500m/s to 950/PPC or 1050/ERPPC)?

Controlling the velocity controls the viability of the weapon.

Controlling the heat changes the rate of PPC spam (see Thunderbolt-9S when it has 7.5 heat ERPPCs).

The heat changes did not stop the use of PPCs.. the velocity did. (Do people actually use the Grasshopper-5N as a PPC boat?)

How do people not understand this?

Edited by Deathlike, 03 April 2015 - 01:34 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 April 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

Dude, cmon man. ER PPCs are not going to invalidate ER LL on either side. They are too damn hot. ER LLs are MORE accurate at 1000m because there is no need to lead targets. Standard PPCs would still be pretty slow and clumsy at range at 1150-2000 m/s. PPC/AC5 meta? Guess what, they are already very close in velocity, yet we see no PPC/AC5 meta. You need to lose this irrational fear of PPFLD... 30 damage is not enough compared to the laser vomit/gauss combo that we see today. If PPFLD was so OP then why are there so many laser vomit mechs dominating everywhere? It must not be that hard to hold on target.

I guarantee we will not see ER PPCs invalidate ER LL, the damage to heat ratio is poor. It will have more of a use, but I guarantee you will still see all kinds of laser vomit even if my proposed velocity buffs were enacted.



Nice completely ridiculous over exaggeration.

Except that they did. They always have - right up until they were nerfed enough to make lasers viable again.

This isn't some rampant speculation. It's not some wild guess. That ridiculous over-exaggeration is exactly what you're talking about.

Can PPCs/ERPPc stand a little buffing up? A hair or two? Sure. However we've already had speed 1k+ PPCs/ERPPCs. They sync with AC5s and are accurate at range and the heat is manageable when you're consistently accurate with them. You don't need that many shots.

We've already done this. Already had it, already played it. It's bad and it's broken.

Deathlike covered this pretty effectively above.

Heat to damage is easily manageable (like it was with PPCs/ERPPCs for 18 months after the heat was raised to current levels) when you've got PPFLD - you put 30 pts on the enemy CT/LT/RT, fade. Wait 5 seconds. Go back out, do it again. Then a 3rd time and overheat (if need be) because that's probably the killing shot.

This is dramatically more effective in environments like CW when you've got coordinated teams coordinating fire. The only reason we didn't see this due to recent quirks on a few mechs is that those mechs can't run 2xAC5 + 2xPPC/ERPPC.

I dislike any weapon being useless but if you want PPCs to be as viable as lasers they need DoT. 7 tons, 3 slots and unlimited ammo becomes god-tier when combined with PPFLD and high projectile speed. Refire rate, cooldown, these mitigate this a small amount on smaller mechs but when you stack it with ACs it becomes irrelevant - you've got 2xAC5s and then an instant 20 point bump every 5, 6, 8 seconds, whatever your heat allows. You can hit and fade, swing to spread damage whenever and however you want.

We already did it. We already had this. A small change in cooldown, heat, etc. isn't going to make it work different any more than putting SRMs/LRMs back to their broken state would be mitigated by the same thing.

Edited by MischiefSC, 03 April 2015 - 01:56 PM.