291 replies to this topic

[Heklin]

Wow,,, this debate exploded quickly.

1. Just a reminder,, they are doing multiple passes on quirks,, starting slow and building,, so it is likely that we will see quirks on Novas, Kitfoxes, ML and Warhawks changes. They have added a chunk of extra structure and armour to these mechs,, if its not enough they will likely add more like they have done to the adder. I prefer this method rather than rash moved that are harder to balance and compare.

2. Not all mechs are designed to be played the same. If you are talking about a kit fox compared to a spider,, they have different roles/play styles, rather than suggesting the developers make them all similar, why not try to work out how we can make them work. Same with a hunchback and a nova.

3. Something is better than nothing. I would rather small regular improvements than long periods with nothing and then massive changes that make us have to start all over with our builds. I've had some GREAT adder games (400 dmg, 2+ kills) with the last set of quirks!!

To all the players who have been positive about the changes,, thank you. To those who have asked questions or made positive critic,, also thank you.

Thank you PGI for another step forward,, look forward testing it out and the next one.

Cheers,

Heklin

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I like the previews (not the actual changes, those I don't care, I don't play clan mechs), but the official preview. Thanks and keep up the good work.

[Wildstreak]

Sereglach, on 06 April 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Really tiny text, and for some reason we can't click the images to expand them. However, saving them does allow one to view them with full fidelity. Can we get a fix, please?

Overall, though, the changes do look like a nice improvement.

Right click image, choose Open in New Tab.

[Nemesis Duck]

Wow, very generous, and if I understand correctly you've started moving quirks that logically belong in legs there and now legs can be considered as options when customizing. Good work!

[Dakkss]

Clan mechs that are specifically built to carry PPC's are still getting worse energy quirks than IS mechs that were not purpose-built to carry PPC's. I will never understand this.

[DasSibby]

OW. OW. OW.

(Still. A good step forward with the quirks...)

[Domenoth]

Dak Darklighter, on 06 April 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

Clan mechs that are specifically built to carry PPC's are still getting worse energy quirks than IS mechs that were not purpose-built to carry PPC's. I will never understand this.

I'm sorry, but OmniMechs were not "purpose-built" either. That's why they have Omni in their name. Also, Clan Mechs don't die when their side torsos get popped. Why can't you understand lower quirk numbers as a trade-off for that awesome advantage?

I don't understand why you don't understand. Do we cancel each other out?

Before anyone tries to jump on me, I'm not saying the Clan quirks are definitely as big as they should be. I'm just not surprised at all that the numbers are coming out smaller than the IS numbers. I'm also not surprised when I have to move the seat of my car back after a 4'10" person drives it. Their legs are shorter than mine so they need to move the seat up to reach the pedals. How could either of these be difficult to understand?

Edited by Domenoth, 06 April 2015 - 08:18 PM.

[Koniving]

Thank you for having these listed, and it clicked to zoom for me.

Mike Forst, on 06 April 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

Those images are supposed to click to zoom but uh...they didn't do that for some reason. I'll see if I can get it fixed.

But now I have a Nova question!

Nova-S LT and Nova-B LT presents a problem.


The S LT is clearly superior because it features a 3 degree larger Yaw Rate.
The B LT is otherwise exactly identical except for this detail.

Why should we ever use the B LT aside from the acceleration/deceleration buff for a complete Nova B? Why are the quirks otherwise identical for the B and S left torsos? What would give us a real reason for using it?

Just sayin', because if this got overlooked then what else has? There should totally be a group of highly perceptive players pre-screening these things.

Also -- why are the quirks so specific? MG only? What if I wanted an ST LBX or autocannon? But that's a wide-spread issue with quirks, rather than one specific to the Nova. If the fear is pooling the quirks for mass boating, then consider the question/suggestion below the hyphens.

---

Lastly: Has the concept of quirks whose effects exclusively affect weapons mounted on that limb been brought to the table? (i.e. the "50% ER PPC Thunderbolt" of the past, wouldn't have been so game breaking if 50% was exclusively for the right arm and had zero effect on any other limb's weapons [no other ER PPCs or weapons would get the right arm's quirks]). You'd see fewer of the boats that the quirks are spawning for the IS and more diverse loadouts.

Just a thought.

Final edit: Domenoth had a related but different idea. I included it on this linked post along with the expansion/explanation of my idea for clarification.

Edited by Koniving, 06 April 2015 - 10:08 PM.

[huskinater]

Some input on the pictures: I feel using the cyan/blue font for "new or increased" and using the yellow/red for "reduced/removed" would be much easier on the eyes.

It's kinda like skimming the forum for staff posts, that cyan is so much prettier and more themed than a blaring angry yellow.

[Domenoth]

Koniving, on 06 April 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

Lastly: Has the concept of quirks whose effects exclusively affect weapons mounted on that limb been brought to the table? (i.e. the "50% ER PPC Thunderbolt" of the past, wouldn't have been so game breaking if 50% was exclusively for the right arm and had zero effect on any other limb's weapons [no other ER PPCs or weapons would get the right arm's quirks]). You'd see fewer of the boats that the quirks are spawning for the IS and more diverse loadouts.

Just a thought.

I would also like to see this.

I would add, have you considered diminishing returns on weapon specific quirks? For example, on the TDR-9S give an ER PPC 50% heat reduction cap of 1. Then equipping 2 ER PPC's takes the quirk down to 25%, 3 ER PPC's takes the quirk down to 5%, 4 ER PPC's removes the quirk. But for the Warhawk, 50% heat reduction cap of 2. Equipping 3 ER PPC's takes the quirk down to 25%, 4 ER PPC's takes the quirk down to 15%, etc. (numbers are made up but you can see the sorts of trends I'm suggesting).

[BSK]

Mike Forst, on 06 April 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

Also I didn't have a chance to make prettier spreadsheet coloring this time around. It'll be better the next time.

It better be that way, you made me think I had reached that age and I needed a monocle ..

[Zordicron]

Well, one of my nova uses 6MPL anyway, so me likey that one. I am glad it is tougher to boot.

Would like to see the PPC velocity on the warhawk pushed upwards significantly. that is like the defining loadout of the mech, it should rip those things off like a champ. Right now everyone and their brother loads LPL onto it instead. They are same tonnage, run cooler, shot almost as far and are much easier for tryhards to aim, I mean players to aim with no target lead. I would love to see the Prime be EXCELLENT at ERPPC fire, not just a little better than the TBR the clammers all compare it to.

[Wing 0]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

I see a marked improvement from the last round of quirks.

Kind of but not quite. they could've done a lot better than this.

[Koniving]

Domenoth, on 06 April 2015 - 09:01 PM, said:

I would also like to see this.

I would add, have you considered diminishing returns on weapon specific quirks? For example, on the TDR-9S give an ER PPC 50% heat reduction cap of 1. Then equipping 2 ER PPC's takes the quirk down to 25%, 3 ER PPC's takes the quirk down to 5%, 4 ER PPC's removes the quirk. But for the Warhawk, 50% heat reduction cap of 2. Equipping 3 ER PPC's takes the quirk down to 25%, 4 ER PPC's takes the quirk down to 15%, etc. (numbers are made up but you can see the sorts of trends I'm suggesting).

Another interesting possibility in case if the "limited to specific limb" solution isn't possible due to some unforeseen issue.

I'd like to expand my idea and see if I understand yours as well.

In my case, just as an example... On the Warhawk Prime the set of 8 quirk can be 10% generic energy heat reduction.

The WHK-Prime Right Arm could have something like a 6% generic energy heat reduction and 6% ER PPC specific heat reduction. So just having a Warhawk Prime right arm could give a 12% total heat reduction to the ER PPCs mounted in said arm. Got a full Warhawk Prime? That's 22% total heat reduction for the ER PPCs for only your right arm.

But for this example say the WHK-Prime Left Arm is not as quirked for ER PPCs since it also has a single missile launcher. Say it's instead 6% generic energy, 0% ER PPC, and 3% generic missile bonus (of whatever). So the WHK-Prime LA quirks in total for the ER PPCs is only 6%. For LRMs it has a total of 6%. Now a complete Set of 8 Warhawk Prime's left arm has 16% ER PPC heat reduction, meanwhile the RA has 22% ER PPC heat reduction.

Again, WHK-Prime RA: 12% ER PPC heat reduction on its own, 22% for Set of 8 WHK-Prime RA. WHK-Prime LA: 6% ER PPC heat reduction on its own (because missile hardpoint). 16% for Set of 8 WHK Prime LA.

"OMG, why!?" Because it has 3 hardpoints instead of 2 and in the interest of uniqueness. So wait for it.

The Warhawk C (Gamma) has a left arm that has just 2 hardpoints, meant to be dedicated to 2 ER PPCs.

What if the WHK-C Left Arm had the same 6% generic energy heat reduction + 6% ER PPC heat reduction. When put on just any design it'd get 12% ER PPC heat reduction. Slapped on the Warhawk Prime, you would not have a complete set, so no Set of 8 10% generic energy heat reduction. Instead you'd get 12% ER PPC reductions on both arms.

To me, this is good because the Warhawk Prime is not heat efficient like the Warhawk C.

Again to reiterate:
WHK-Prime RA: -12% ER PPC heat generation. Full Prime is -22% ER PPC HG.
WHK-Prime LA: -6% ER PPC heat generation (because missile hardpoint and quirks). Full Set of 8 buffs to 16% ER PPC HG.
WHK-C LA: -12% ER PPC heat generation.

So you can combine the WHK-C LA with the WHK Prime RA for twin -12% ER PPC heat generation in each arm, or assemble the full prime for -22% ER PPC in the RA and -16% ER PPC generation in the LA.

The Warhawk C could have a set of 8 generic quirk more suited to something else, such as range or firing rate instead. Its right arm of twin LPL could have a generic quirk of beam reduction, and a weapon specific quirk of something else entirely.

The Warhawk B's right arm of 3 energy can have its own unique quirks.

And PGI won't have to worry about the quirks pooling. At least this is the idea.

---------

Domenoth's case would allow the quirks to pool, but give deminishing returns to massed weapons. Say of the total ER PPC and Energy quirks pooled together is 25% for X limit of weapon, then the more of it you have, the less the quirk improves it. If the limit is 2, then 3 ER PPCs get 12.5% instead, and 4 ER PPCs get no benefit. (That kinda sucks at first glance).

(Keep in mind I am working with a modified assumption of half then none since I noticed your first example lost 50% of the bonus and the second was something like a 40% loss from there, which progressively would be 30%, 20%, 10%. I'm using a harsher 50%, 100% loss of the bonus instead. So the harshness of that is on my end, not on Domenoth's)

So perhaps rather than pooling it, say the specific weapon quirk (not including the generic weapon type quirk) diminishes with additional boating.
Assuming a limit of 2 for best effect...
Taking 2 ER PPCs on a Warhawk as an example with an IS-style example amount you get a 12.5% reduction to generic energy heat and 12.5% reduction to ER PPC heat. Got 3 ER PPCS? 6.25% reduction to ER PPC heat in addition to 12.5% generic energy heat reduction (18.75% total reduction instead of 25% now). Got 4 ER PPCs? 0% reduction to ER PPC heat in addition to -12.5% generic energy heat.

Mkay that's not as bad as the pooled thing. I did get the general idea, right? What did you think?

Edited by Koniving, 06 April 2015 - 10:33 PM.

[charov]

Interesting quirks, I like the general direction: more structure/agility/armour and less weapon specific quirks even if I like some specific configs (such as 2x ER PPC Adder or 4x ER PPC Warhawk).

I don't really understand why some players complain. I get some objections, but others are really silly.
Let's take, for instance, the 4x ER PPC Warhawk. Have you run it for a few matches before complaining that nothing will change? I did, with an average of ~550 dmg per match (did 5 matches in a row with it - 3 won, 2 lost. Nothing exceptional but really not as terrible as other mechs). Heat wasn't a problem (except on caustic and terra), ER PPC speed and its side torsos were, especially the ER PPC speed, and these quirks try to address these problems. You can't whine because you wanted less heat because you can't expect to alpha all the time with it! In fact, you should fire 2x ER PPC at the same time, not more. And guess what, if you are disciplined you can keep a constant stream of PPC even now, without quirks, because having ~28 DHS allows you to cool down very fast. From this point of view, even a small -5% or -7.5% heat gen is very, very welcome.

My impression is that many players here, both IS and Clans, want to see their "pet mech" to be the best, and don't even try to understand if the problem is the mech or their abilities. Also, I still see plenty of players (some even veterans!) too bad to understand that the most important features of a mech are its hitboxes, the position of the weapons and some weapon traits such as the beam duration.
Think about it: the TW and the Crow "are OP" due to their hitboxes. The hellbringer "is OP" due to it's weapon placement (in CQB it dies horribly but the high-mounted weapons allow it to peek and fire safely). Some IS mechs "are OP" because they boat energy weapons, and their beam time is soo low that they can peek, fire and hide before a clan laser is able to do even half of its damage.

[o0Marduk0o]

VoodooLou Kerensky, on 06 April 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

Im really beginning to feel totally stupid for having spent $55 to get the Cauldron Born A La Carte.

You expect wave3 to get quirks?

[Mcgral18]

red devil2, on 06 April 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

Think about it: the TW and the Crow "are OP" due to their hitboxes. The hellbringer "is OP" due to it's weapon placement (in CQB it dies horribly but the high-mounted weapons allow it to peek and fire safely). Some IS mechs "are OP" because they boat energy weapons, and their beam time is soo low that they can peek, fire and hide before a clan laser is able to do even half of its damage.

Agility is also a big part. Compare the BJ1x to the Crow.

Both are fast Medium mechs with considerable amounts of hardpoints.

The BJ1x gets 8 hardpoints while moving 116Kph.
The Crow gets up to 10 hardpoints while moving 107Kph.

The BJ1x has a torso yaw angle of 96
The Crow has a torso yaw angle of 156


Hm....

Edited by Mcgral18, 07 April 2015 - 03:40 AM.

[Koniving]

Mcgral18, on 06 April 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

The BJ1x has a torso yaw angle of 96
The Crow has a torso yaw angle of 156

Without that wide range, it'd be much easier to hit the weakspot of the Stormcrow (the back; my own runs 2 armor on the rear and in most matches my back will never get below 'yellow armor'.)

I'd have to actually use some more skill if I couldn't twist as much. Think you're on to something.

red devil2, on 06 April 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

Interesting quirks, I like the general direction: more structure/agility/armour and less weapon specific quirks even if I like some specific configs (such as 2x ER PPC Adder or 4x ER PPC Warhawk).

I was noticing this trend and liked it. In fact if the skill tree wasn't so high on buffing agility (example: 55% faster acceleration for an elited mech compared to a mech with nothing unlocked), the agility quirks could have some really good meaning. We kinda need a skill tree revamping first.

Still, now I wish in my example above I had put more emphasis on agility rather than weapon specific quirks, though not sure how I would do it while giving an example of location-limited quirks.

[MauttyKoray]

Is it sad that the Clan quirks so far are more balanced than the IS quirks? Even more so because you have to balance them while remembering that omnipods can be swapped and thus bonuses stacked if on different omnipods.

[Sylvian Le Fabre]

I like it
Good start.


But please, can you just post/load up a spreadsheet so we can c&p the numbers instead of stupidly write them off?
Would be nice!