307 replies to this topic

[Telmasa]

E Rommel, on 02 May 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

Actually the Thunderbolt also has low, spread-out hardpoints that are difficult to use. It just rose to prominence because it was very heavily quirked on two variants. Now it's mostly one variant that has the most quirkening, and that quirk mostly has the effect of letting it equip Clan MPLs with slightly less damage.

Like everyone else, you seem to forget it's also for far less burn time, faster cooldown, and less heat.

Smurfy numbers don't include the quirks, if anybody hasn't realized. Add the math from the quirks in yourself, the result should be clear.

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Most players have found the Timber Wolf superior to the 5SS.

It's 10 tons heavier and can mount jumpjets. Ton-for-ton, the 5SS has all the other advantages compared to the T-wolf. I do not see how that's O.K., personally.

I'm willing to bet, soon as the Black Knight is available for c-bills and becomes widespread, it's going to be a tier 1 "metamech" from the get-go. And they'd better damn well de-buff the god-mode status from the Thunderbolts when it happens.

(I pilot a mastered thunderbolt in solo pugs, and it's pure cheese - complete lazy easy mode [there's a reason I named it the "Cheese Farmer"], so please, no more of "but it's balanced because ClanTech hurrdurr" excuses).

[CK16]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Most players have found the Timber Wolf superior to the 5SS.

As I said initially, the Black Knight is basically a GHR without JJs and a bit more tonnage, so I expect it to have better quirks than the hopper, due to also having less high hardpoints. On the other hand, the BK will (hopefully) have better geo and hitboxes than a TDR so won't need as hard of quirks as the 5SS.

I just don't want to see anymore over quirked IS mechs....They are getting out of control you have to admit some of the quirks are just stupid broken....and what do Clan mechs that are not the Timber or Crow get? a crappy band aid when they need more....I want to see the Black Knight good but not with it so broken...I am sick of Meta in this game...Yea I run Timer Wolfs but not cause they are OP its because they are my favorite mech in the franchised behind the Madcat (TImberwofl) Mk.II. I in fact don't even play the Laser vomits unless my DC's has them required cause you know what they are BORING!

[ROSS-128]

Telmasa, on 02 May 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

Like everyone else, you seem to forget it's also for far less burn time, faster cooldown, and less heat.

Smurfy numbers don't include the quirks, if anybody hasn't realized. Add the math from the quirks in yourself, the result should be clear.



It's 10 tons heavier and can mount jumpjets. Ton-for-ton, the 5SS has all the other advantages compared to the T-wolf. I do not see how that's O.K., personally.

I'm willing to bet, soon as the Black Knight is available for c-bills and becomes widespread, it's going to be a tier 1 "metamech" from the get-go. And they'd better damn well de-buff the god-mode status from the Thunderbolts when it happens.

(I pilot a mastered thunderbolt in solo pugs, and it's pure cheese - complete lazy easy mode [there's a reason I named it the "Cheese Farmer"], so please, no more of "but it's balanced because ClanTech hurrdurr" excuses).

0.86 seconds isn't too painfully long of a burn time compared to 0.6 (only a 0.26 difference), both weapons have the same 3 second cooldown, the 5SS's heat/CD quirks are only 15%.

Meanwhile the "Clan Thunderbolt" I used as an example does 14 more damage per alpha, weighs 10 tons less, and runs about 30 kph faster thanks to its safe XL engine. That same XL engine and 2-slot heat sinks allow it to bring more heat sinks, so while a little toasty it doesn't really run too overly hot.

It's even more impressive when you consider the Stormcrow does all that without quirks.

And soon you'll have the Cauldron Born, which is the same weight as a Thunderbolt and can potentially have 13 energy slots. Crit space might be an issue though, so that one might choose to roll with fewer slots but some lovely 4 ton 1 crit Clan LLs, and lots of Clan DHS.

[Gas Guzzler]

Crottykid16, on 02 May 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

I just don't want to see anymore over quirked IS mechs....They are getting out of control you have to admit some of the quirks are just stupid broken....and what do Clan mechs that are not the Timber or Crow get? a crappy band aid when they need more....I want to see the Black Knight good but not with it so broken...I am sick of Meta in this game...Yea I run Timer Wolfs but not cause they are OP its because they are my favorite mech in the franchised behind the Madcat (TImberwofl) Mk.II. I in fact don't even play the Laser vomits unless my DC's has them required cause you know what they are BORING!

I said multiple times that it just needs better quirks than the Grasshopper, not Thunderbolt level quirks, so I don't really understand what you are arguing.

[CK16]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

I said multiple times that it just needs better quirks than the Grasshopper, not Thunderbolt level quirks, so I don't really understand what you are arguing.

Sorry maybe miss understood use to a lot of IS players that get all upset about when you call out quirks that need nerf cause it would take that meta build down kinda thing.

[Gas Guzzler]

Crottykid16, on 02 May 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Sorry maybe miss understood use to a lot of IS players that get all upset about when you call out quirks that need nerf cause it would take that meta build down kinda thing.

Yeah I'll be honest with you I don't use that TDR currently, its not even built right now, but I don't really see it as something that needs a nerf. I have used it before and I legitimately feel more powerful and more useful when I take a Timber Wolf/Hellbringer than a TDR-5SS. The 5SS is good in brawly situations because of the laser duration, but any time there is a poke-off, both of those Clan heavies out range and out damage the Wubbolt. To each's own though, I just don't understand why some players ignore that successful competitive teams run those Clan heavies over Thunderbolts, to me that is the proof in the pudding right there. I honestly don't care though, when I lose I never attribute it to mechs, and look at what myself and/or my team did wrong or what the other team did right.

Wouldn't mind a Dragon-1N nerf though, not because its OP but because I am sick of having 6 of those glass cannons on my team. They either turn in to a liability or out damage me. Either situation is NOT OKAY!

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 May 2015 - 03:42 PM.

[Mcgral18]

E Rommel, on 02 May 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

0.86 seconds isn't too painfully long of a burn time compared to 0.6 (only a 0.26 difference), both weapons have the same 3 second cooldown, the 5SS's heat/CD quirks are only 15%.

Meanwhile the "Clan Thunderbolt" I used as an example does 14 more damage per alpha, weighs 10 tons less, and runs about 30 kph faster thanks to its safe XL engine. That same XL engine and 2-slot heat sinks allow it to bring more heat sinks, so while a little toasty it doesn't really run too overly hot.

It's even more impressive when you consider the Stormcrow does all that without quirks.

And soon you'll have the Cauldron Born, which is the same weight as a Thunderbolt and can potentially have 13 energy slots. Crit space might be an issue though, so that one might choose to roll with fewer slots but some lovely 4 ton 1 crit Clan LLs, and lots of Clan DHS.

Thuds MPLs have a recycle of 2.04s, as opposed to the cMPL cooldown of 2.49.

They generate 3.4 heat as opposed to 6 (56% of the heat)

Similar range (TC1 makes Clams slightly more)


Thuds have more ST HP than Timberwolves (105 as opposed to 96) and are useless as sticks, but can lose both STs.


Can that robot of yours offset 40% more heat? No. No it cannot.


You also seem to have your Clam robots confused. The Cauldron Born will have a maximum of 9 E hardpoints, it's the Executioner (95 tons) that will have up to 13.

Also, cERLLs are not very good. Quirks IS ones are better, with the common 10% range it equals the range, (742) with less heat, less burn time, 2 points less damage. 1.5 seconds is pretty long.


The 5SS will beat most Clan mechs at 300M, while still being beaten only by the sub 200M optimal range SPL SRM robots (which it can easily handle at 400M, with the 352M optimal range isMPLs). Half second duration means you can twist earlier, and being as ST durable as Assault mechs means it can take a punch. It might only mean an extra alpha, but in many cases, that decides the fight.

[ROSS-128]

Ah, it was the Executioner that had the 7 energy arm. Still, 8 is plenty for a 65 tonner and the CB will easily be able to build a superior version of the 5SS' loadout while going 81/89 kph.

It also has the ability to build itself as a 65 ton Black Knight (sans one small laser, but it will not be missed), but with three or four potential high-torso mounts for its CLL/CLPLs.

Seriously, Clan players have no idea how good they've got it. If the HPs on the Cauldron Born end up the way the preview art suggests, the Clans are about to get a hill-humper as good as the Jagermech and Hunchback, with enough firepower to dwarf the both of them.

But Clanners will make sure to insist it's underpowered.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 02 May 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

Thuds MPLs have a recycle of 2.04s, as opposed to the cMPL cooldown of 2.49.

They generate 3.4 heat as opposed to 6 (56% of the heat)

You left out damage and tonnage savings.

You only need five CMPLs to equate to the same damage as seven MPLs.

That's a four ton savings, that's a 4 crit slot savings, that's a hardpoint allocation benefit allowing you to cluster weapons better.

That means any Clan mech with 5 E hardpoints can do 40 damage for 30 heat at better range than the 5SS without any quirks at all.

The 5SS gets to pay about 6 less heat, but Clan mechs in general are more versatile, faster, and many can choose where they want their weapons.

The Closest competitor, the HBR, also gets ECM and 4 high mounts instead of 2 and can easily get 26 DHS - 27 if you really push it and strip a bit from legs (which I don't do personally).

So the 5SS gets an advantage in it's niche (raw DPS) with it's nearest competitor having multiple advantages in other areas



I think that's pretty fair.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 May 2015 - 08:35 PM.

[Yosharian]

The Quickdraw 4H got its good quirks removed in favour of lore-friendly quirks, i.e. to LRMs and Medium Lasers.

Following this reasoning, the Thunderbolt 5SS should have its MPL quirks removed and should receive SRM, ML, PPC and flamer quirks.

Until PGI start being consistent in their approach to quirks, the game won't be balanced. It doesn't make sense to nerf the Quickdraw 4H, which was predominantly an SRM MPL brawler, into the ground by removing its good quirks, and to keep the absolutely insane 5SS quirks which make no sense from a lore perspective.

Now personally, I'm in favour of abandoning lore altogether and balancing the game from a player and MWO-THE-GAME perspective. But if PGI want to play by different rules depending on what day it is and what mood takes them, then the game will never be balanced.

At the moment there are mechs absolutely floundering in the dust, and it's just a real shame that the team can't be bothered to hire someone to balance the game, which basically consists of altering a few values in an Excel file.

I mean ****, give me 30 minutes and I could produce a quirk list that would instantly balance this game. Ok maybe not 30 mins but you get the idea. I guess it'd take me a few hours.

Edited by Yosharian, 03 May 2015 - 12:16 AM.

[Rando Slim]

Yea, Wolfhound is only one that is gonna be good. Black Knight looks actually worse than the Orion. But then I dunno, I drive tons of ****** mechs and am kinda used to them now. Good news is even waist level weapons on a Black Knight are still comparatively somewhat high up because its a tall mech. But yea it is sad because all they had to do is move all those ST hardpoints up to that nice looking flat, upward angled section a few inches up on the model and it would be alright. Crab might be decent if that pointy cone sticking out of it is like a Stalker nose. But theres an equal chance it will be like the Dragon or Catapult schnoz, in which case it too is DoA. I am now completely sure no one at PGI ever plays thier own game.

Edited by Rando Slim, 03 May 2015 - 01:43 AM.

[Yankesik]

CocoaJin, on 30 April 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

Weapon placement near the mech's CoG is brilliant design, implying it was in fact designed by engineers and not video gamers. It minimizes rotational moments on the mech caused by recoil by the weapon and from movements of the mech on the weapon...all improve weapon accuracy.

With this mech, there is no "recoil" to speak of, not to mention the gyro is there to stabilize the mech.
Finally, being able to shoot without exposing half of your vehicle heavily outweighs any advantage such ******** weapon placement would confer.

[Nightshade24]

How is this thing Dead on arival already? it's basically everything that people play the thunderbolt for and more with most likely XL friendlyness, armour quirks, and the fact lore wise this basicly had a mini UAV so to say around it.

Pretty much within BAP range lore wise it can basicly detect any mech ,ECM, Power down, behind a wall, inside a cave, etc... Oh and it also cancels that if you have BAP. This thing has potential for top end IS potential.

(note: hero can most likely have ECM , JJ, or both, due to the nature of the fact these things commonly had it as a field refit. )

[anonymous161]

Taisa Sodai Lopez Kerensky, on 30 April 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

Good to know that while clanners receive Cauldron-Born, Shadow Cat and Hankyu the Inner Sphere will receive Black Knight with Awful Garbage hardpoints.

Please Remove Mauler and replace with Hatamoto-Chi and add Melee as well, arigato.

Oh shut up for those that are clanners and will buy wave 3 we have to spend a lot more money to get clan mechs than you guys do for is mechs, you guys already have a huge selection of quirked up the butt mechs to choose from why you whining about this?

[Haakon Magnusson]

Chef Kerensky, on 30 April 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

It's almost as though humanoid mechs are generally not well suited to MWO's mechanics and the good ones are the exception rather than the rule

And how good humanoid mechs would be if they could raise their arms to bring weapons to bear over that hill or teammate.
Or use them for punching, pushing or climbing. Or carrying lost urbies. But no.

I don't see how I could convince myself to buy this pack, even though I love wolfhound, but when modelled will end up looking like a lovechild of a firestarter and a panther.
Crab actually looks like the only one of the bunch that could be visually unique and even have usable hardpoints.

[anonymous161]

Ultimatum X, on 02 May 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

You left out damage and tonnage savings.

You only need five CMPLs to equate to the same damage as seven MPLs.

That's a four ton savings, that's a 4 crit slot savings, that's a hardpoint allocation benefit allowing you to cluster weapons better.

That means any Clan mech with 5 E hardpoints can do 40 damage for 30 heat at better range than the 5SS without any quirks at all.

The 5SS gets to pay about 6 less heat, but Clan mechs in general are more versatile, faster, and many can choose where they want their weapons.

The Closest competitor, the HBR, also gets ECM and 4 high mounts instead of 2 and can easily get 26 DHS - 27 if you really push it and strip a bit from legs (which I don't do personally).

So the 5SS gets an advantage in it's niche (raw DPS) with it's nearest competitor having multiple advantages in other areas



I think that's pretty fair.

I'm sorry but clans are faster? Maybe a few but not when it comes to the lights, sure myst can go fast but it's made of tissue paper, and clans cant change engines for more speed or crit spots.

[TWIAFU]

Paigan, on 01 May 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

Any arguments backing up the flame?
Or just random neural vomit coming out of that gray mass of yours?

Vomit.

Whole 5 month before release and it is DOA. Wish these "people" with this ability to see the future would put it to good use for the benefit of mankind vs being generic internet forum troll.

[martian]

Why don't we simply wait when we know more about the Black Knight?

Things such as torso twist speed, turn speed, acceleration, view from cockpit, etc. W

e don't know the 'Mech scare either - too small, too big or just right.

We don't know what quirks it will have.

[El Bandito]

Telmasa, on 02 May 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

(I pilot a mastered thunderbolt in solo pugs, and it's pure cheese - complete lazy easy mode [there's a reason I named it the "Cheese Farmer"], so please, no more of "but it's balanced because ClanTech hurrdurr" excuses).

Funny, that's what I thought about the Crow and the Timbie once I mastered them. Those Clan mechs were in fact so easy-mode, I stopped playing them soon afterwards. Big waste of 100 million C-Bills.

Clearly all 3 mechs need nerfs.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 May 2015 - 04:40 AM.

[ROSS-128]

Well I'm definitely not going to say it's DoA. The good stock engine, and the ability to run 3x6 or 3x5 LPL+ML builds (depending on if you have a 9HP or 8HP variant) are definite plusses.

However, the low, spread-out hardpoint placement is also definitely a strike against it. It's very likely that hitboxes and quirks will be what tips it one way or the other.