1189 replies to this topic

[Zakatak]

Hodo, on 23 September 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Not voting the ultimate winner isnt on there.

Babylon 5.

Quite simply the best space battles ever.



The amount of time it would take for the Shadows to crush the majority of these entries is directly proportional to how nicely they want cut up the competition with their 75 Mt/sec purple beams of death. Phasing in and out of reality at will doesn't hurt either.

B5 would have been nice to compare while this thread was thriving, instead of ST vs WH40k lots of consistency (save for a couple goofs) and fluff available on here.

http://www.b5tech.co...ence/essays.htm

Early B5 vs Halo or Late B5 vs ST would be good comparisons.

Edited by Zakatak, 23 September 2012 - 07:54 PM.

[guardian wolf]

Strum Wealh, on 23 September 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Actually, I've already outlined how it could/would be almost trivially-easy for the All Systems Commonwealth High Guard to destroy the Imperium of Man.
I'd reckon that most of the other 40k civilizations would fall with more-or-less equal ease.

As the Commonwealth isn't a poll option, Macross (specifically, the Protoculture Stellar Republic, the Protodevlin and their Supervision Army, and the Vajra) stand a good chance by virtue of being able to employ not-dissimilar tactics in conventional navy-to-navy combat.

Honorable mention goes to the Halo universe.
Given their ability to construct such things as the Halo Array and the Shield Worlds, the Forerunners seem like they could best any of 40k's civilizations. And most of the Halo Array (including the Greater Ark and six of the seven individual Halos) are intact as of the end of Halo 3.
Also, given the measures that had to be employed (and, even then, said measures' ultimate ineffectiveness), the Flood would very probably be able to take down any 40k civilization.

The Tyranids are not only quite similiar in situation, but ultimately, better at doing that, and I'm sorry, very ardent Halo fan, but Flood vs. Tyranids, Tyranids win hands down.

[Strum Wealh]

guardian wolf, on 24 September 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

The Tyranids are not only quite similiar in situation, but ultimately, better at doing that, and I'm sorry, very ardent Halo fan, but Flood vs. Tyranids, Tyranids win hands down.

And just how and why might the Tyranids "win hands down"?

The Flood can directly assimilate dead Tyranids (as Tyranids are organic and do not appear to be invertebrates, they would indeed be vulnerable to Flood infection) in addition to conventionally consuming biomass, while the Tyranids seem to lack a comparable ability (they must bring biomatter to their norn-queens for consumption to make new Tyranids).
So, arguably, the Flood could actually out-reproduce even the Tyranids.

The Flood are savvy enough to make use of other societies non-organic technology (including Forerunner artifacts and both UNSC and Covenant weaponry and vehicles).
As Tyranid technology is organic (and some of it, like the Hive Ships, probably have nervous systems of their own), it also stands to reason that it could be assimilated by the Flood.

The Flood Gravemind seems to be equal - and, given its demonstrated intellect, possible superior - in capability to the Tyranid Hive Mind.

What would - could - the Tyranids bring to the fight that could allow them to match or defeat the Flood?

[guardian wolf]

Strum Wealh, on 24 September 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

-------snipped for brevity---------
What would - could - the Tyranids bring to the fight that could allow them to match or defeat the Flood?

Alright the Tyranids are extremely adaptable, they evolve on a freakishly fast pace, so, if they attacked the Flood, or the Flood attacked them, the Tyranids would lose in the first skirmish, then the queen would see what caused them to lose, then it would give them genes to defeat that situation, and improve the species overall, then if it happens again, new adaptation. That is what the flood lacks, they lack adaptability, as they are limited by whatever their food can do, even the pure forms are limited to three different modes, recon, tank, and turret, all of which could be adapted to by the Tyranids.

[Zakatak]

Does it even matter what your DNA looks like to the Flood? And isn't their lack of forms due to Bungie's resources, rather then story canon? And if turning a giant floating city 300km in diameter (High Charity) into a giant flood spore (with space travel) isn't adaptability, I don't know what is. Can the Tyranids also assimilate technology like the Flood can? A comparison of the queen and Gravemind would be nice too. I do believe Gravemind gains the thoughts and thinking power of all he assimilates (trillions at this point).

Again, the Flood destroyed the Forerunners as well as everyone else in the galaxy, except the few the Forerunners saved on the Ark. They are a Type 2.5 Civilization, capable of building structures light-seconds across. Supposedly they killed THEIR "forerunners", who were on the level of C'Tan.

[Strum Wealh]

Zakatak, on 25 September 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Does it even matter what your DNA looks like to the Flood?

Not really - the presence (or lack thereof) and structure of a vertebrate central nervous system, overall biomass, and calcium stores seem to be the determining factors.
More specifically:

Quote

According to Cortana's analysis of various Flood forms, Kig-yar and Unggoy generally lack the necessary calcium stores and biomass to be converted into Combat Forms and are instead used as biomass stores and as carrier forms, although Kig-yar and Unggoy Combat Forms have been observed during one engagement.

The Mgalekgolo's lack of a central nervous system and nature as an invertebrate colony consisting of multiple worms make them immune to Flood infection. The invertebrate nature of the Yanme'e, along with their hard, chitinous exoskeleton, would seem to make them immune as well.

Additionally:

Quote

At this time, the only known human to be incompatible with Flood infection forms is Staff Sergeant Avery Johnson due to his supposed contracting of Boren's syndrome from the residual radiation of a crate full of plasma grenades on Paris IV. However, Johnson actually contracted this immunity from the augmentations he received as part of the ORION Project.

Quote

The ORION Project, later known as the SPARTAN-I Program, was an Office of Naval Intelligence Naval Special Warfare project aimed at counter-insurgency operations. The program was later dubbed the SPARTAN-I program under the Colonial Military Administration reboot.

-----

Due to augmentation procedures, Spartan-Is are immune to the Flood. To cover up the Orion Project, the Office of Naval Intelligence created a fictional disease they called the "Boren's syndrome". It is unknown if it would be possible to recreate the immunity cheaply.

Zakatak, on 25 September 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

And isn't their lack of forms due to Bungie's resources, rather then story canon? And if turning a giant floating city 300km in diameter (High Charity) into a giant flood spore (with space travel) isn't adaptability, I don't know what is. Can the Tyranids also assimilate technology like the Flood can? A comparison of the queen and Gravemind would be nice too. I do believe Gravemind gains the thoughts and thinking power of all he assimilates (trillions at this point).

The Norn-Queens are the lynchpin in the Tyranids' reproductive process:

Quote

They live upon massive Hive Ships in huge chambers at the centre of the Hive Fleet and ingest genetic materials. They then churn out through asexual reproduction all the countless types of bio-forms that make up the Tyranid Hive Fleet. All Tyranids have links back to a Norn-Queen, as the only way for Tyranids to reproduce is through this cloning technique.

The Flood don't have a directly-analogous entity, simply because they have no need for one.

A Gravemind is, from the description, a physical manifestation of the collective consciousness and intelligence of the Flood (which, in turn, is amalgamated from all of the hosts the Flood have ever infected).
As such, it is the equivalent of the Tyranids' Hive Mind, given physical form - which would probably make a Gravemind more analogous to a Hive Tyrant than to a Norn-Queen.

Zakatak, on 25 September 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Again, the Flood destroyed the Forerunners as well as everyone else in the galaxy, except the few the Forerunners saved on the Ark. They are a Type 2.5 Civilization, capable of building structures light-seconds across. Supposedly they killed THEIR "forerunners", who were on the level of C'Tan.

Technically, the Forerunners destroyed themselves - and every other Flood-suitable lifeform within three radii of the galactic center - with the Halo Array as their ultimate act in their millennium-long conflict with the Flood.

Though, they did defeat/destroy their predecessors (the Precursors) and defeated the Prehistoric Human Civilization (who created the Flood in the form we know them today... and almost destroyed it as well).

As far as the Forerunners' Technological Achievement Tiers (an analog of the real-world Kardashev Scale), the Forerunners themselves and Prehistoric Humanity were both "Tier 1" civilizations ("the ability to manipulate gravitational forces, create AI with full sentience, fabricate super-dense materials, perform super-accurate Slipspace navigation, the ability to create life, and the ability to create worlds (e.g.; Onyx, the Halo Array and The Ark)") while the Precursors were a "Tier 0" civilization ("can travel across galaxies and accelerate the evolution of intelligent life").

[Zakatak]

Thanks for clearing that up, but I don't know enough about 'Nids to create an argument, so I'll leave this one alone. Send in the Ilithi Dragon!

Has anybody noticed that the farther a universe is in the future, the less advanced it is?

Stargate (2000's) - intergalactic travel, wormhole generation, gigaton weaponry
Mass Effect (2100's) - instant instellar travel, anti-gravity/mass everything, hardlight
Star Trek (2300's) - slow interstellar travel, megaton weaponry
Halo (2500's) - less advanced then ST
Firefly (2600's) - trend continues
Battletech (3000's) - if we are talking about the Alliance vs Houses, trend continues
Metroid (4000's) - everything that isn't Chozo, trend continues
Borderlands (5000's) - trend continues in most areas
Heavy Gear (6000's) - trend continues
Armored Trooper (7000's) - yep
Warhammer 40k (duh) - aside from the great 10k year old technology they hold onto, absolute crap, trend continues

Although to be fair to Borderlands, that only applies to Pandora (which is the only planet that is known). Other then that though, physical items can be stored in a harddrives, objects as large as tanks can be contructed out of mid-air, grenades can create blackholes and warp, most guns are at least 20mm in bore and have light recoil, space stations can etch pictures into moons... pretty badass stuff. Not to mention, the afterlife can be bought from a Mega Corp for about 300$, depending on your level! Outside of Pandora, I'm betting the universe is pretty high up on the ladder of achievement. Colonizing that pisshole is amazing in itself, the wildlife can cloak and make singularities and eat more punishment then battlemechs!

Edited by Zakatak, 25 September 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[Catamount]

Quote

Warhammer 40k (duh) - aside from 10000 year old technology they hold onto, absolute crap, trend continues

I've been too busy to post lately, but yeah, the sheer vulnerability of 40k is something that I don't think is appreciated here, at least insofar as the Imperium is concerned. The Imperium of man is not only not progressing in technology, their society is literally COLLAPSING ON ITSELF, because their technology, on which their society depends (insterstellar travel/communications/industry/etc) is basically just slipping more and more out of the grasp of their understanding. TBQH, even if every other race in the 40k universe didn't advance (not the case), I don't think the Imperium would survive more than another few thousand years before their technological level regressed beyond the point of being able to maintain their own society, because eventually stuff is going to start breaking, and they're not going to have a clue what to do about it.

In the meantime... in any serious war, and I mean a real serious conflict with an actual advanced society capable of exploiting their inflexibility and vulnerability, the Imperium would likely as much crumble in on itself as lose to any aggressor. At the very least their effectiveness would quickly taper off in any conflict. If another advanced race (The Federation, Stargate's Asgard or Wraith or Tau'ri, any of the B5 races, even the UNSC) encountered the Imperium, the first thing that would happen in a war is that race would make quantum leaps in tech, and would quickly stride to adapt to their foe. The Imperium solution would be to throw grunts at their enemy until it went away (and if that lost effectiveness, they'd just keep doing it, because they can't adapt their technology to new foes, because they don't even UNDERSTAND their own technology in many cases). If another race's weapons aren't immediately up to the task of dispatching Imperium warships, they'd modify the weapons. If Imperium weapons were ineffective, or quickly adapted to (not hard, given general lack of sophistification), well... the Imperium would just not have weapons anymore.

In most wars involving advanced opponents, both sides see huge technological gains as they constantly try to technologically outmaneuver each other with weapons and counter-weapons. Any war against the Imperium would see any serious advanced foe make huge strides against them, while they only slid backwards, and if that enemy was remotely competent, they'd target the most advanced and valuable technology they could find.

Destroy a Galaxy class, and you know what happens? The Federation builds a new Galaxy class, quickly. Do you know what happens if you kill an Imperium Apocalypse class? They just don't have it anymore. Why? Because it's so old, that it's too advanced for them (which isn't saying much, considering it's basically a pre-dreadnought design, hardly the pinnacle of advanced ship-making).

Send a fast ship to Terra and get a shot off at the Astronomican? (and they'd do what, exactly, to stop it?) The Imperium loses out of the gate. Seriously, as Will Riker once said "one photon torpedo ought to do it"; literally, one shot could end the Imperium's war-making capacity as their ships were stranded.


They can't adapt to new foes, they can't respond when new foes adapt to them, and they are critically reliant on technologies that they haven't the faintest clue how to replace, if lost.


Now there are races in 40k that this would not apply to, but the Imperium is not one of them, and frankly, they're already running on borrowed time (really, all anyone would have to do to win is go hide for a few thousand years and wait for them to regress a little further).


Yes, the Imperium has an absurd monopoly on galactic resources and manpower when compared to many other races, but they also have critical weaknesses that are often not appreciated.

Edited by Catamount, 25 September 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[DejaVoodoo]

IMHO: In the grim darkness od the far future, there is ONLY war. 40k trumps all.

[Catamount]

DejaVoodoo, on 25 September 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

IMHO: In the grim darkness od the far future, there is ONLY war. 40k trumps all.

Yep; never-end warfare totally makes any civilization more capable. I mean, just look at the Inner Sphere after the Succession Wars!

[Ilithi Dragon]

Zakatak, on 25 September 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Thanks for clearing that up, but I don't know enough about 'Nids to create an argument, so I'll leave this one alone. Send in the Ilithi Dragon!

Did somebody call me? } : = 8 D What do you need nitpicked, technobabbled and pixel-counted?

Zakatak, on 25 September 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Has anybody noticed that the farther a universe is in the future, the less advanced it is?

Ha! Yeah, that is amusing. Catamount and I have noted that regarding 40K, at least (which also follows the trend of regressing in technology after circa the 25th Century).

Catamount, on 25 September 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Yep; never-end warfare totally makes any civilization more capable. I mean, just look at the Inner Sphere after the Succession Wars!

Like the Third Succession War! } : = 8 D

[Ancient Demise]

Bah.

Dune would really trump all.
An Obliterator ignite the atmosphere and glass the entire planet. Apparently it is pretty hazardous to anything else as well.

Maybe you haven't read Hunters/Sandworms of dune, (aka dune 7) but spoiler alert:
Fleets of highliner battleships launching planet killing weapons at each other like they are LRMs

It is hard to quantify it, but they suggest that the obliterator is just one of many WMDs that the 'outside enemy' has.


In response to Zakatak's observation, perhaps this is similar to a number of William C. Dietz books where he describes humanity's long decay into barbarism. Even battletech has this to some extent with the succession wars.
IIRC Firefly described their universe as being low-tech on the fringe while the alliance is supposedly very very high tech.

[Strum Wealh]

Ilithi Dragon, on 25 September 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Did somebody call me? } : = 8 D What do you need nitpicked, technobabbled and pixel-counted?

I do believe you were summoned in response to my recent posts regarding the Flood (specifically, the longer one), and to provide input with regard to the recent-and-ongoing "Flood vs Tyranid" debate...

[CCISolitude]

For the given list - Eve Online - because pilots are functionally immortal...

On the other hand, you missed Babylon 5 - I'll take a fleet of First One's and trounce every other **** on the list every time

[Ilithi Dragon]

I see. This shall require some research, as my familiarity with the Flood and their specifics is limited, and the Tyranids even more so.

However, I will say up front that I suspect that the Flood would prove a formidable challenge for the Tyranids, at the very least. The Tyranids could potentially evolve themselves to combat the flood by developing new forms that lack central nervous systems, etc. However, that still leaves the myriad existing Tyranid forms still vulnerable to Flood infestation, and there is only so much viability you can get out of bio forms without a central nervous system. More than that will require further research.

[pnaksone]

Ilithi Dragon, on 14 September 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

They're not unlike the Colonial Marines from Aliens, in that regard, who are horrendously incompetent, with horrendously incompetent equipment designs, because they haven't fought anyone for so long.

Lets be fair to the Colonial Marines the xenos where not an enemy that could really be trained for. My own belief is that the Colonial Marines where trained to fight small scale actions against other humans. Most military actions where either send a small team to retake the target or drop a nuke on it from orbit.

They where then sent in to the xenos hive, ordered to unload their primary weapon, and had to fight in close quarters against a creature designed to fight in that environment that did not care about injures or casualties.

[SuperBall]

I was tempted to put Stargate just cause i like that show lol, but temptation only goes so far in the grand scheme of voting.

[Catamount]

A few thoughts on the flood vs Tyranids:

1.) Increasingly advanced tyranid forms would probably just continue to get assimilated into the flood, and with them, knowledge of how to combat them (so it would just be a weapon, counter-weapon race)

2.) The flood could very easily assimilate a queen, and gain full knowledge of tyranid behavior and adaptation (they might even be able to incorporate the ability somehow)

3.) The early advantage of the flood would make life very difficult for the tyranids, because early losses mean huge explosion of flood nubmers

pnaksone, on 25 September 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

Lets be fair to the Colonial Marines the xenos where not an enemy that could really be trained for. My own belief is that the Colonial Marines where trained to fight small scale actions against other humans. Most military actions where either send a small team to retake the target or drop a nuke on it from orbit.

They where then sent in to the xenos hive, ordered to unload their primary weapon, and had to fight in close quarters against a creature designed to fight in that environment that did not care about injures or casualties.

Even with that in mind, these "Marines" were largely undisciplined, disorganized and all in all incompetent, and their tactics were disastrously bad. When the second most competent member of the team is the guy who runs around screaming "game over man, game over!", it doesn't say much for them

Hicks and the sergeant seemed to be the only competent soldiers among them.

In fairness to them, however, humanity basically appears to be largely ruled by a corporatocracy that probably stifled conflict a long time ago. Humanity probably hasn't fought an actual war in... well, a long time.

Edited by Catamount, 25 September 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Star Wars tech wins imo. I draw the line before Warhammer 40k because its a ridiculous genre based on excess steeped in adolescent absurdity.

[Melcyna]

They are mostly ridiculous (except for Legend of Galactic Heroes which is slightly closer to reasonable), but Star Wars ESPECIALLY BAD AT IT, their technical information so worthless and shifted in figure so many times i don't think they themselves can keep track of what the official figure is.

Like seriously... i've never seen another major sci fi SO BAD at tracking their own lore as Star Wars that the writers of the books aren't even sure what figure to use when they need to describe something.