293 replies to this topic

[ThatGuy539]

John1352, on 01 May 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

Look at how high the clan trial mechs are. Lots of people who don't have a full dropdeck. (Or any clan mechs). The ice ferret prime has the worst CT, so pretty much all of them would have been trials.

Not all of them. I used the Ice Ferret Prime for the whole thing. Fastest Clan mech so it was good for flanking and getting in and out, and I generally did very well with it. (Not a Trial though.)

[RustyBolts]

VompoVompatti, on 02 May 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

Given that the first two are remembered by the heroic defence against a badly lead attack you really want Tukayyid in the same list as those two battles?

Bad offensive tactics with incredible heroics and good defensive strategy. The real difference is that at the two real battles, the defenders were greatly outnumbered. In this version of Tukayyid, the attackers were greatly outnumbered.

[Moldur]

Quote

• Light: 114478
  
• Medium: 205358
  
• Heavy: 304425
  
• Assault: 44751

Hm, seems like Clans don't like assaults in CW. I wonder why. :^)

Edited by Moldur, 02 May 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[Hayashi]

demoyn, on 02 May 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

Psychologically speaking this is probably the exact opposite of the truth. As a general rule people who are elite tend to favor the underdogs so that they can have a larger impact on the averages.

Under normal conditions yes. Under conditions like this where we already knew in advance that Wolf and Kurita were leading on points, that the top faction would get special trophies, and PGI flat-out offered free transfers to Clan regardless of contract in an attempt to increase Clan numbers in the middle of the event...

Most who do the transfers would just take the transfer to the 'top' two factions and just ride on their coattails for the #1 trophies. We saw the same thing happen in Guild Wars 2's World vs World tournament - once it became clear which worlds would lead, people transferred en-masse to those worlds, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy, so it's not just something peculiar to MWO.

If anything, the extremely small number of people that took the offer to hop to Wolf for a free trophy might be an encouraging sign.

Normal behaviour outside of tournaments like this, to borrow the events from GW2, is mixed. Some groups favoured going to underdog worlds so they could make a name for themselves, but most of them preferred to hide in the top 3 and just farm the free wins that other players get for them. This is a different community, but the overall effect isn't likely to be that different either.

Moldur, on 02 May 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Hm, seems like Clans don't like assaults in CW. I wonder why. :^)

Clan Assaults were the #1 most likely class type of all to die in combat from the processed stats. I'd ask for internal structure quirk buffs for them based on the stats, particularly for Gargoyles, but you can bet the polemic crowd would come in and elaborate on how dire wolves with more survivability would 'destroy the game'.

---

Quite a few comments seem to be based on people's personal experiences in CW/in clan/IS mechs against clan/IS mechs. I made the previous analyses based entirely on the numbers given by PGI - neither my experiences nor any one of yours is capable on its own of reflecting the entire situation given that no pilot can run in every single mech type against every single mech type on every single map within every single faction with every possible teammate, after all, but statistics reduces the effect of personal biases on one's picture of the overall situation.

Whether one thinks something is overpowered or underpowered isn't a reliable gauge as to the actual balance status of something. If something is balanced, it would be most realistic to expect that the majority of people think it isn't - because it would be strong against something, and weak against something else: those strong against that build would think it is underpowered, those weak against that build would think it is overpowered, those who use that build would think it works fine, and on the whole, the number of people asking for buffs and those asking for nerfs to that same build should be the same.

I think the mathematics should drive decisions on where the game goes in terms of balance, rather than anyone's subjective perceptions - and the result of doing that will be that in the long run, most people's perceptions will end up aligning with the mathematics anyway. It doesn't really make a difference for Mech vs Mech combat whether the 'top tier' builds are kept and everything below is buffed up to its level, if everything is nerfed to the state of the bottom tier builds or the top is nerfed and the bottom is buffed - as long as most variants have at least one build of comparable efficiency. Right now, they're not in any way comparable, and the non-diversity of the meta reflects how players have reacted to this situation.

Edited by Hayashi, 02 May 2015 - 12:02 PM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Wow... I didn't realize we had 17K players in our community... and that's just the people who played CW during the event! Actually, a lot of the statistics of this event are kind of mind boggling.

There's no wins/loss statistic yet?

Looks like the number of mechs destroyed between IS and Clans is pretty near dead even, so I imagine the win/loss statistic is pretty close as well. A good showing of balance.

And, the full 50 points is the 2nd most achieved score total, so poo on those people who were arguing that 50 was too much. Statistically, if they didn't give up in the first 5 matches, more people hit at least 40 points than any other point total.

[CK16]

With these numbers with IS out killing and out damaging clan mechs (though yes some gen rushes did happen) can we please stop this call for clan op clan OP! You guys have far better DPS then clan mechs....I was even out ranged by IS er Large Laser on a stalker while in my Timber(where is that even possible in lore!). Clan is NOT op and IS with all thier quirks are yes some what level but some Chassis are way to OP....I mean for gods sake I played a few games in this Banshee and with 6 Lrg pulse and no where near over heating....I am frustrated much by constant IS complaints about Clan tech...and seeing them ***** about the Black Knight already is a bit annoying as it looks like a good mech to be on par with the Timber far better then the Orion.

Edited by Crottykid16, 02 May 2015 - 12:11 PM.

[Rolibar Kroft]

I think both the Direwolf and Warhawk are ok. The reason so few Clan assaults got used was the underpowered Clan lights. If the lightest "good" mech you can put in your deck is a Stormcrow (or maybe a Nova) you choices become pretty limited.

Add to that:
LRMs not great on 2 of the 4 maps.
Clan UACs lack stopping power.

So pick your 4 best energy based mechs that fit the tonnage and you end up with 3 SCR an 1 TBR. Mix in the odd Hellbringer and that's pretty much every Clan drop deck.

[Bront]

Freebrewer Bmore, on 01 May 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

This is great! Now everyone can see just how overrepresented a small fraction of the mech variants are.

From these numbers (lumping Champions together with their base variants), we can see that just the top 5 IS variants (TDR5SS, TDR9SE, RVN3L, STK4N, and TDR9S) accounted for a full 26% of all IS mechs used*, despite constituting only 3% of the total 166 existing IS variants. Furthermore, the top variant was over seven times as common as the 18th variant (RVN2X), and almost half of all mechs used (47%) came from the listed top (18) variants.

Think about that: you were about as likely to see one of a mere 18 variants as you were to see one of the remaining 148 variants. That's a lot of wasted diversity.

Could we please please please hear something from the devs explaining why in the world we don't have a dropdeck construction budget based on mech usage frequency instead of tonnage? It'd be simple to implement, and would open up a lot of diversity without adding to the neverending buff/nerf quirk cycle of grief; besides, pretending tonnage=potency had always been obviously absurd even before considering Gargoyles...**

*Adding the IS class totals together, I count 669,220 total IS mechs used; the listed top IS variants add up to 313,661; the top-5 total 176,716.

**See also http://mwomercs.com/...levalue-system/ for Roland's thorough pre-CW exploration of such an idea. Note that while he uses the term "Battle Value", it's really nothing like TT BV.

To be fair, the big reason for the Raven 3L is it's a functional mech that has ECM and fits well in a drop deck. The existence of the Griffin 2N should slowly help even that one out a bit.

[Hayashi]

Crottykid16, on 02 May 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

You guys have far better DPS then clan mechs....I was even out ranged by IS er Large Laser on a stalker while in my Timber(where is that even possible in lore!).

ER quirks don't extend to standard LLAS, and standard quirks don't extend to ERLLAS. The only stalker capable of outranging an unbuffed cERLLAS is the 3H, decidedly not a common build - which also happens to outrange it by only 2.7%, while still doing 19% less damage - which means that for the range at damage per laser to even apply, you'd need to be using it at a range of 1250+m, where it'd be doing like 1 damage in both cases.

Your claim of being outdamaged at range by an IS ERLLAS on a stalker is mathematically impossible for an unbuffed cERLLAS. And cERLLAS can be buffed by targeting computers.

In the first place comparing a 75 ton TBR with a 85 ton STK is fishy. The weight advantage the IS gets is 1/24, so we're talking 3 tons advantage at best, rather than 10.

And in addition to that, most STK boating large lasers boat standards, not ERs, and it's the 4N being used to do the boating due to their very strong quirks.

If you must ERLLAS pew, you can try this. Quirkwise it gets -4% heat generation, and numerous increases in armor/structure for the arms and legs. Targeting computer nets 10.5% range, -52.5% target acquisition time and 20.5% additional critrate. DPS = 13.92. Heat per second = 12.2. Cooling per second: 13(0.2)+12(0.14) = 4.28. Heat capacity: 30+25(2) = 80. Damage delivered until overheat = 80/(12.2-4.3)*13.92 = 140. Sustained DPS = (4.28/12.2)*13.92 = 4.88. Alpha damage = 66. Range: 817.7m.

In comparison to the STK version. Quirkwise it gets +20% refire rate on large lasers, 20% range on large lasers and -20% heat generation on large lasers. DPS = 15.26. Heat per second = 9.50. Cooling per second: 12(0.2)+8(0.14) = 3.52. Heat capacity: 30+20(2) = 70. Damage delivered until overheat = 70/(9.50-3.52)*15.26 = 179. Sustained DPS = (3.52/9.50)*15.26 = 5.65. Alpha damage = 54. Range = 540m.

Or if you want to mimic the STK-4N's DPS values in a WHK-C, you can as well. Same quirks as earlier. DPS = 15.15. Heat per second = 11.1. Cooling per second: 4.28. Heat capacity: 80. Damage delivered till overheat = 80/(11.1-4.28)*15.15 = 177.7. Sustained DPS = (4.28/11.1)*15.15 = 5.84. Alpha damage = 63. Range = 365m for cMPLAS, 663m for cLPLAS.

Regardless of whether you want to use it at long range or use it as a midrange brawler, WHK-C outclasses STK-4N in both departments plus survivability when built properly, and it's STILL one of the rarer chassis used in the tournament. Not building a WHK correctly to compete against a STK-4N doesn't make ClanTech less powerful when it matters - it merely means that you're not extractng anywhere near the amount of power it possesses. The STK-4N is also one of the most overquirked mechs in the IS already, a mid-quirk BLR-1G isn't even close.

Re: The whole RVN-3L thing, the KFX-C is the Clan equivalent. It moves slower and has slightly less armor, but outclasses the 3L in all firepower-based metrics, will always win it in a 1v1 fight between two pilots of equal skill, and weighs 5 tons less.

A possible dropdeck that Clans rarely use is KFX-C(30)+WHK-C(85)+HBR-PRIME(65)+MDD-A(60).

Edited by Hayashi, 02 May 2015 - 01:59 PM.

[RedEagle86]

War Dogz, on 01 May 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

True but I think you forget to times your result by 24 for total number of player per match,

Still. Math is OP. And I was tired. I happen to have a career that leaves me exhausted and nigh-on brain dead at the end of the day.

[Capp]

michaelius, on 02 May 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

Just saying but outside of being good mech Stormcrow also enjoys the advantage of being longest available for cbills clan machine in 55-65 tons range as well as being the only one that had meaningfull sale (45% off at launch) so it's absolute dominance in numbers is easy to explain.

Not to mention, awarded as a prize in a previous tournament. That's how I got mine... and since I had it, I used it.

Edited by Capp, 02 May 2015 - 02:13 PM.

[Bront]

Inveramsay, on 02 May 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

The big data sets don't lie and it would appear that the game is pretty well balanced. Very well balanced in fact. Look at the damage and kill numbers, they are within a fraction of a percentage of each other.

They're one sided due to game modes. run the same event with the IS on attack and see what happens.

[DebaucheryNShenanigans]

Lily from animove, on 01 May 2015 - 11:39 PM, said:

wow, the emch chassis statistics are truly interesting,
.

Got that nail on the head Lily,

the Griffin 2N was purchased in buckets.

[The Boneshaman]

This is a great what if clans used mercenaries and used IS tactics scenario.

not to sound like a sore loser but I was really hoping for a real Clan VS. I.S. fight. players calling out challenges an following clan honor. Kerensky would be ashamed.

not one time did I see any challenges being called like truer clan warriors just a bunch of I.S wannabe clanners.

With the map reset wish they used the 3052 borders. fun match but with it lasted till 11:59.59 PM so we could get more players getting off work and school. also mercs out did them all.

Also with clan wolf being #1 clan ( with help form -MC- o7) clan wolf is now the IlClan ? good thing to they are the only decent clan in BT lore.

[WVAnonymous]

Kiiyor, on 01 May 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

Great stats!

I vote that you throw some pity at the 36 poor chumps languishing on 49. One pity point!

I'm one of the chumps at 44, pity is always welcome.

[Gorgo7]

Wow! Fully 59% of ALL Clan mechs that dropped were:
Stormcrows: 24%
Timberwolves: 18%
or Hellbringers 17%.

To put that in perspective:

The first 60% of IS mechs were:
Thunderbolts: 18%
Stalkers: 8%
Ravens: 8%
JagerMechs: 5%
Firestarters: 5%
Hunchbacks: 5%
Spiders: 3%
Battlemasters: 3%
Griffins: 3%

The Clans need more variety.

[Kiiyor]

Gorgo7, on 02 May 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

Wow! Fully 59% of ALL Clan mechs that dropped were:
Stormcrows: 24%
Timberwolves: 18%
or Hellbringers 17%.

To put that in perspective:

The first 60% of IS mechs were:
Thunderbolts: 18%
Stalkers: 8%
Ravens: 8%
JagerMechs: 5%
Firestarters: 5%
Hunchbacks: 5%
Spiders: 3%
Battlemasters: 3%
Griffins: 3%

The Clans need more variety.

They can have all the variety in the world, but if newer Clan mechs aren't better than the TBR, SCR or HBR, the stats will likely stay the same.

And if they are better... god help the 'Sphere, heh.

[Freebrewer Bmore]

Kristov Kerensky, on 02 May 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

They will continue to be the metaMechs for CW until such time as a balancing pass or new Mechs being added changes them and we get a new set of metaMechs. Any balancing done based on the CW stats will simply change the current metaMechs to something else, that is ALL that that will accomplish. MetaMechs exist because they are the most efficient toys in the game for winning, balance changes will simply change WHAT Mechs are meta, it will not remove the meta, simply change it. Obviously some of our stat masters have no effing clue how competitive gamers work and think meta can be removed, after 3 years of MWO and it's evolving meta one would think those stat masters would understand this by now, but they fail to see it still and keep offering 'solutions' to fix it.

You're right that no mere analysis-based balance pass is ever going to fix this, but the thing is, a dynamic usage-based weighting system actually could. It'd break the Quirk Cycle of Grief* by constantly and automatically adjusting whenever a variant is getting over (or under) played. Sure, there'd still be a metagame, but it'd be more about taking advantage of undervalued mechs, wouldn't require continual developer tweaking, and wouldn't get stale, because nobody could succeed by just copying and playing the same meta builds as everyone else.

* The Quirk Cycle of Grief: a process by which people complain about how pathetic a certain variant is, until it gets quirked, then becomes OP, gets played by everyone and their mom, gets more complaints about now being OP, gets nerfed, causes more complaining about the nerfing, etc. etc. etc.

Roland's old thread on the basic concept again: http://mwomercs.com/...levalue-system/

[Vajhra]

I found by Mech Class interesting, as it represents how much armor was deployed:

Clan Light: 114,478
IS Light: 134,890

Clan Medium: 205,358
IS Medium: 144,825

Clan Heavy: 304,425
IS Heavy: 240,195

Clan Assault: 44,751
IS Assault: 149,310

The biggest diff being the IS taking 3x as many assaults out, though they were defending, still, manoeuvre is not much of a factor in CW compared to normal drops so tonnage is an advantage whether defending or attacking.

I enjoyed the event grind, but saw quite a few Raven's and Stalkers just stand in the open and seem to brush off damage.

[Scum of the Earth]

Triban, on 01 May 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

Judging by your numbers, only 19% of all participants received the mech reward. Is that intentional? If so, I am deeply disappointed in the greed.

As I tried twice to participate in the event and had wait times to drop of 2+ hours, I didn't get anything. I only had 2-3 hours to begin with so I spent my time playing regular matches instead. I am greatly disappointed as this is the first event since I started playing that I didn't earn even a single reward. I have these nasty red X's now marring my page. =(

I am curious to know too as I wanted to know how many people were able to earn a mech. I have been able to earn a mech every event until now. Is 19% about average or really low compared to other events? I am wondering if you are considering this a success of failure? What are the number of players that participated compared to the regular population that has played in the past 30 days? These are the stats that I'm most interested in.