Icewraith, on 04 May 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:
It's a good analysis, but your suggested changes show you don't understand why people are taking the Stormcrow and Timberwolf almost exclusively.
People are taking those mechs because
1: They occupy optimal tonnage spots in the BT construction rules.
2: Clan Lights pale in comparison to IS lights.
3: The Warhawk is too slow to keep up with Clan heavies and Mediums, the Dire Wolf is WAY too slow, the Gargoyle has all kinds of issues and spends too much tonnage on engine.
4: The Mad Dog compares unfavorably to both the Stormcrow and Timberwolf in performance and sits at exactly the clan drop deck average, so if you bring Mad Dogs you can't bring much else.
5: The Summoner doesn't have a good selection of hardpoints and spends a lot of extra tonnage on standard structure and fixed jump jets. Jump Jets are still in pretty sad shape in MWO.
6: Some people who ordered Clan Packs but stopped playing and didn't order Wave 2 jumped back into the game for Tukayyid, therefore had no Hellbringers.
7: The Nova has that unique shape that works against it in so many ways, and suffers from bad hardpoints and ghost heat. Also, it's slow and has fixed jets IIRC.
8: The Ice Ferret has performance comparable to slower IS lights with an extra ten ton weight penalty and sparse hardpoints. Also, the Clan ER PPC is a shadow of its TT incarnation, a lot of smaller Clan designs relied on it for punch. See point 7 regarding wave two.
9: Three Stormcrows and one Timberwolf fit exactly into a 240 ton Clan drop deck.
10: So do two Timberwolves, one Stormcrow, and one Adder. If you do well enough in the first three, you won't have to actually pilot the Adder.
11: So do two Hellbringers and two Stormcrows. Hellbringer-Stormcrow is exactly half a drop deck.
12: The Clans don't have a 20-ton mech chassis in game, otherwise a double DWF double Firemoth deck would be possible if not viable.
13: Summoner-Nova also fits half a drop deck, but compare Summoner-Nova to Stormcrow-Hellbringer. Hah!
15: Timberwolf-Ice Ferret also fits half a drop deck.
16: The Clans don't have a 40-ton mech in game to split a drop deck with a Gargoyle even if they wanted to. I don't understand why the Viper isn't in game yet. A strong 40 ton option would also (maybe) encourage use of Mad Dogs and Summoners, promoting synergy with other omnis with even tonnage.
So everyone ran mostly Stormcrows, Timberwolves, and Hellbringers (with the occasional Adder). It's not the hitboxes, it's not anything particularly broken about those chassis, it's just that those chassis don't have the flaws present in the other clan omnis (or in the case of the Hellbringer, the paper-thin standard configuration armor is fixable in PGI's version of the omni rules, also, ECM). That's it. That's why. Chassis synergy, TT construction rules, standard configuration loadouts, PGI omni rules/hardpoints, the drop deck weight limit, and lack of other good options, especially in the Light and Assault classes.
1. Actually, the optimal tonnage spot in the Heavy weight class for the sake of efficiency is 70 tons, and the difference between a 70 tonner and a 75 tonner in absolute equipment weight (assuming the same speed and maximum armor) is minimal at worst, heavily in favor of the 70-tonner at best. This is part of why Cataphract are still more common than Orion. You can easily test this to verify. The 70 tonner has one tonne less equipment space with a standard engine at 64.8 (71.3) kph top speed and five tonnes more at 81 (89.1) kph, while using an XL engine means that the 70 tonner has 2.5 less tonnes at 64.8 (71.3) kph top speed and .5 tonnes more at 81 (89.1) kph, both situations with appropriate scaling at the points in between. This makes a 70 tonner a more efficient use of the weight than a 75 tonner, which is not supported by the ratio of Summoners appearing, indicative of a noticeable quality gap in capability. Either the Nova is so much worse than a Stormcrow that it's worthwhile to take a less-efficient heavy to round things out, the Timber Wolf is definitively better than the Summoner, or both the Stormcrow and the Timber Wolf have significant non-tonnage advantages over their five-tonne-lighter companions.
2. Two of the three current Clan lights play a different role entirely than most of the current Inner Sphere lights. Their speeds are set for performance as combat support machines, not as scouts with insurmountable agility. When used properly as support 'mechs, Clan lights are better at that job than most Inner Sphere lights. Meanwhile the Inner Sphere combat support lights (Pretty much just Panthers so far) and in fact all Inner Sphere lights have been granted heavily distorted engine caps compared to heavier Inner Sphere 'mechs (the Cicada still isn't allowed to mount a 400 XL engine, making it permanently slower than all the lights despite originally matching speed with the Locust and Spider. The Panther, Commando, Raven, and Firestarter shouldn't have been able to approach the same heights of speed as a Jenner, nevermind the Locust and Spider, and yet the speed caps of the Commandos in particular have been launched through the roof instead of doing something to make it function better in a strictly combat sense, the original role of the chassis.) I and several others of my acquaintance have managed to run Panthers and in some cases Firestarters as useful and effective combat support 'mechs through various methods- mostly with the dual-AMS versions of the machines. Most of the lighter Clan 'mechs are intended to travel with the main force at a similar speed to work together with them, not to run off ahead on their own scouting.
3. The Warhawk is not that much slower. The 20 kph difference in speed is a minor issue in Community Warfare and barely an issue at all in the basic queue. I guess this could be chalked up to a lot of pilots failing to find the best path through rough terrain and not wanting to work on that skill, though. Considering I've gotten into the front of 'the pack' in standard queue using a 45 KPH King Crab by the time of initial engagement before (and if I can do it, you should also be able to, I'm not that special), a 20 kph shortcoming is not a serious hindrance.
4. A good point. Personally, I don't think the 10-tonne advantage should have been given, but there's aught all to do about that now.
5. The Summoner has five jump jets. That's plenty for good combat and terrain maneuverability. The current issue with jump jets is that one alone is slow as tar for getting over small obstacles, two isn't enough to be notably different from one, and three is just shy of useful for the various 'mech-height pieces of terrain all over the place. A lot of the bad rep for jets currently comes from people who either are driving the Highlander or Dire Wolf, which can't ever mount more than three, or who are still thinking that less than four jump jets can be enough for full maneuvering. Spending on standard structure, I'll sustain that, but that's only a 3.5 ton deficit- .5 of which is nonextant because of tonnage efficiency with engine sizes. 3 tonnes on its own doesn't account well enough, particularly when so many Timber Wolves take the omnipods to mount a few jump jets.
6. Do we have any data on this proportion of people who didn't purchase Hellbringers in packs but still played Tukayyid? And I'd be very surprised if there were enough people who left the game but came back for Tukayyid to be statistically significant. Can you verify this?
7. The Nova does have fixed jump jets (a whole 2.5 tonnes worth, oh no) and both a bad reputation and some iffy selections (standard structure AND armor, but no actual use of the space this frees up in most cases), but it is absolutely the same 81/89.1 kph as the majority of other Clan 'mechs. This could theoretically be credited entirely to the Nova performing badly, but I'm inclined to think that the Stormcrow performs above the curve as well, given its performance every single time I've seen it and its general reputation.
8. 142 kph is not slow by any count. The majority of IS lights these days that rate significance run around or slightly below that speed- exceptions for the Commando and Locust, which need it to survive, and the Spider, which sometimes can't carry enough weaponry to warrant a smaller than maximum engine without going into silly territory (pseudo-Urbie anyone?) Its sparse hardpoints aren't too much worse than those on the Cicada, and are a damn sight better than the options list on the Spider. I'd say the main performance issue on this 'mech is having the speed to be agile but no jump jet options and no ECM option- which should rate quirks to compensate, though I haven't analysed the 'mech's quirks as of yet.
8a. Given that it still deals the 10 damage to one location that an Inner Sphere ERPPC does, while weighing less, taking up less space, and providing additional damage to adjacent locations at a greater maximum range, I'm afraid you're going to have to explain how not making it an Energy Gauss Cannon is somehow bad- in another thread, please. Assuming you're right, this is a minor point- Clan Lights can still mount the very nice Clan Large Pulse Lasers. If you're wrong, this isn't a point.
9, 10, 11, 13, 15. Adders were virtually unseen. Four Mad Dogs is also a full Clan drop deck, but that apparently didn't wind up happening enough to be noticed, nor did the Mad Dog make much of a showing on the list. Warhawk-Summoner-Adder-Hellbringer also fits this profile, but that clearly wasn't happening either. Even with the limited number of Clan chassis and weird tonnage holes, there's lots of stuff that could have been put together to make full dropdecks and clearly wasn't. This speaks of a very large disparity in 'mech power, one that needs to be reduced from both ends before the entire category (Clan 'mechs) is looked at for raising, lowering, or leaving be as a whole. As for Timberwolf-Ice Ferret, that's a neat idea, but by the numbers this clearly wasn't happening either.
12. However, according to what you've been saying about the 'mech speeds, this wouldn't be done because Dire Wolves are slow. I'm not sure if you want this point to disregard that point or not.
16. I'd love to see the Viper too. Ghost Bear needs more of its identifying 'mechs. I'm really really hoping to at least see an announcement about this 'mech soon, it brings a very interesting mix of capabilities as, essentially, a +10 tonne Spider with mini-Nova arms. I really doubt it would encourage Mad Dogs, though, given how few people like the Mad Dog for anything other than the six missile hardpoints. (Although, on that last day, I was seeing a decent number of dual-gauss Mad Dogs.... hmmmm...)
I wouldn't say it's just a matter of lacking certain flaws or having chassis synergy. The Stormcrow and Timber Wolf are known outside of CW for being especially doughty and vicious for reasons, and while some of them are lingering terror, a lot of them are (admittedly often overblown) actually based on valid concerns and points- which is why I'm suggesting some relatively minor alterations. I absolutely don't think we need to even consider blasting the Stormcrow with a 40-degree twist reduction or loss of a Pilot Skill efficiency or something ludicrous like that- I just believe it's too far above its bretheren.
Deathlike, on 05 May 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:
The simplest one is to remove part of the perfect convergence. If say the torso lasers wouldn't converge perfectly... they would shoot from the same spots, but let's say you aimed too high on a mech... the topmost weapon would outright miss unless you'd adjust for that... or you'd be hitting multiple spots (it could be the difference between legging effectively, or shooting the side torso instead).
Anyways, there's no perfect solution, but saying "no nerfs" is a bad solution. There has to be a give and take, and going in one direction w/o any consideration of the other in terms of balancing is truly faulty.
I don't agree with the kind of loss of convergence you're proposing here- I rather prefer Homeless Bill's solution to that, where the more you fire in a given period, the more you lose convergence, so you can just wait a little longer between shots to let the issue resolve.
However, I absolutely agree with you that discounting reductions out of hand is a bad idea and leads to a bad way of handling game balance.
Deathlike, on 05 May 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:
TBH, you can't always have a specific discussion when an indirect global reason for this is part of the issue at hand. This even includes Clan XL to some degree, so it kinda has to be on the table in the discussion, whether you agree with that or not.
The Clan XL in comparison to Inner Sphere engines has nothing at all to do with the performance of the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow in comparison to other Clan XL carrying 'mechs. So no, it doesn't have to be on the table.
lsp, on 05 May 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:
You realize this is a public forum and you're not a moderator right? You can say please all you want but no one has to leave "your" thread, and everyone has a right to voice their opinion. Wether you think it contributes to "your" thread or not. Comes off pretty douchey. Other than that, great write up.
I have the right to (politely) request that they leave, and they have the right to honor that request or not as they so choose. You will notice that I have not hounded anyone who has stuck around, cursed, reported anybody, threatened to report anybody, or anything of the sort. I am within my rights, they are within theirs, nothing is going on that anyone has to have hurt feelings over, and I have no idea how to end this sentence, so I'll just leave off here.
Devilsfury, on 05 May 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:
So, in terms of "tankyness" IE hard to kill. The Stormcrow and TW are very good at doing this. But...lets compare IS mechs that are just as "tanky". Thunderbolt, Panther, GH, Firestarter, Spider, Zeus, Stalker, Enforcer. Now I understand that we arent talking firepower, just the ability to tank damage and IS has far more mechs than Clan when it comes to this. Hell, id even say that the TB is more tanky than anything the Clans have with the Zeus VERY close behind.
Whether or not the Inner Sphere 'mechs that are good at soaking damage are better or worse than the Stormcrow or Timber Wolf is not really the point here. Rather, my point is that with its other capabilities combined with its exceptional durability, the Stormcrow is outclassing other Clan 'mechs too much. Similarly, the Timber Wolf's overall capability is just a bit (not a lot, but enough to matter) too good in comparison to the median of Clan 'mechs and Clan heavies in particular.
Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 05 May 2015 - 10:54 AM.
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