90 replies to this topic

[RagingOyster]

It's one of those things.

Cheating happens. It happens in every competitive game around, luckily in this game it's very very rare. The only reason PGI acknowledged it at all is because of a few complaints from high-tier players. Because these players also represent those who are willing to shell out more for the game, the devs naturally want to make sure they know their issues are being addressed.

tl;dr Cheating is very rare. PGI's statement was a formality.

[Revis Volek]

TLBFestus, on 13 May 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

I beat you by posting first and by at least 5 names.

I bet you cheated....

AIM BOTS WALL HACKZ! WIRE FRAME MAPS! TOP TEIR STUFF!

Edited by DarthRevis, 13 May 2015 - 08:58 PM.

[N0MAD]

Ya dont talk about hacks or you will get banned, its as serious as hacking, same penalty..
We have hackers, i mean PGI has told us, but not talking about it will fix it all, right?.

[MischiefSC]

Actually cheating in online games is pretty common. Normally it's exploits but there's a significant chunk who go in for 3rd party tools. Even if they pay money for them. Those sites pay the bills and it's not by add revenue.

I worked for years in the gaming industry doing just this sorta stuff. Answering player complaints/reports and tracking down/banning cheaters and exploiters (as well as people harassing, making death threats, etc). Cheating was hugely common. Some companies actually had an unofficial policy of 'don't ban guild leaders for cheating if it can be avoided at all' because, well, most of them either cheated/exploited directly or supported guild members that did. I've banned mid-six figures worth of players. Not accounts, actual players. One guy was over 30 accounts. Most were free trials but he was paying significant monthly fees. Tons and tons of players though. Some games required you to submit it for review, others just required you file a ticket and then just get it done. Some big label games you've probably played didn't even have a default form e-mail or real method of tracking who got banned or why; you just were expected to hit a specific metric for resolved tickets (which included cheating reports) every month and be able to answer a specific ban question if it came up.

The problem isn't being 100% certain someone is cheating. That's not hard at all. It's just time consuming. Also it doesn't net you anything really, especially on a subscription model game but something like MW:O is in the same boat. It costs you money in a very direct and measurable way. Beyond that there is the huge PITA it generates from things like this and the threads on Reddit. You can't just post the log data that confirms 100% someone was cheating, that will help other cheaters avoid getting caught. So the cheater who gets caught plays the victim card and blames witch hunts or bias or admins/devs being MMMEEEEAAAANNNN to them and all you can do is stay quiet. I have never ever seen a single instance in any game I've been an admin on where someone was banned for cheating and there was even the most remote chance it was a mistake. Instead it was always seeing the ones you were 95% sure on but didn't have the time to nail down getting away with it or being told tracking it down wasn't worth the time and cost and effort.

Nobody who gets caught cheating is honest about it. They always say it was all lies and a setup or someone else with 'a friend on the inside' who got a dev/admin to ban them or they just got picked at random to be banned to make it look like they were doing something about cheating complaints or some other BS excuse. Then there's the flood of e-mails from the cheater or their friends trying to get it changed, the forum crap, so much wasted time because you can't just flat out tell them that you know and how you know they cheated because, again, that'll just get used to make catching the others harder. So you have to be circumspect and blunt and wait for it to tire out.

The cold, simple reality is that people who get banned for cheating are just the ones worth the time and energy and cost to go from 95% certain to 100% certain. The worse reality is that I would wager cash money every single person in this thread or posting on this forum has played with someone who uses cheats. Cheaters are never the quiet ones, they're the people who are competitive enough to think it's a worthwhile risk. They belong to groups and those groups probably have people who suspect them of cheating and never say anything.

Is what it is. More to the point PGI is never going to be able to say details about it. Be glad they're willing to put some energy into it, let it go and move on.

Edited by MischiefSC, 13 May 2015 - 09:21 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

Well written Mischief!

I also hope that in a game where you invest $$, or grind your ass off to build your competitive stable of mechs, it would be a bit self-regulating. The more you collect on your account, the more the risk goes up while the reward is the same... so the longer you have played, the less incentive there should be to risk it all by cheating. In a perfect world anyways...

I can more understand people who would wallhack in counter-strike, what is there to lose? Being banned from one out of thousands of servers? Here you risk it all, that should work to everyone's advantage.

[Wrathful Scythe]

I was often called out to be a cheater because I knew how to use my Gauss. Admitted, those headshots were more luck than skill but kills nonetheless. I have never seen someone cheating in a obvious way since I started playing. Maybe someone had wallhack or something but it won't help them much if they suck. Or to put in other words, I see rarely those overachievers with +1200 dmg and 6 kills. And even then, I had many of those matches too without using 3rd party tools.

As long as I don't feel at a disadvantage everything is fine. And till now I never felt that way.

[Black Ivan]

Best thing I had was 3 Gauss shots to a Adder's torso center was already stripped of armor. Scored 3 Gauss hits + Lasers and machine guns and the center was only orange.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

RagingOyster, on 13 May 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

luckily in this game it's very very rare.

We'll see now wont we?

[Weeny Machine]

Zen555, on 12 May 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

So I've never been in a match where I seriously suspected cheating. Ever. I've heard plenty of people complain, sure, but half the time they're on my team and I'm doing just fine. I'd seriously thought that there was NO actual, bona fide way to cheat.

But now this announcement says that there are, in fact, ways to cheat, and at least one person was using it. And that person was a top tier player, so it stands to reason that the cheat was pretty effective or they wouldn't have bothered.

So can anyone please explain what types of cheats have historically existed (just in this game...don't care about how you got unfairly fragged in Quake III). I mean stuff that actually happened, not theoretical what-ifs. I'm well aware of theoretical technology; I just don't see how any of it is actually giving someone a competitive advantage in this particular game.

Thanks!

I had one match where three people died through headshots via Gauss rifles after taking a few steps from the start location at Forest Colony. One headshot...ok...dumb luck. Two headshot...crazy luck...three NEVER EVER. However, that was one match. So I do not really complain

[Corbon Zackery]

Shh! were not supposes to talk about cheat hacks. No really I was pvt. messaged about the subject a few years back.

The most current program: Per seen in Youtube videos: Not suppose to talk about it !

Reveals all enemy units on the map:
Locks your CT on to a target for maximum accuracy.
Tells you when your exposed, and can be targeted in percentage.
Informs you of a player missile lock before missiles are in the air.

[Triordinant]

MischiefSC, on 13 May 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

Actually cheating in online games is pretty common. Normally it's exploits but there's a significant chunk who go in for 3rd party tools. Even if they pay money for them. Those sites pay the bills and it's not by add revenue.

I worked for years in the gaming industry doing just this sorta stuff. Answering player complaints/reports and tracking down/banning cheaters and exploiters (as well as people harassing, making death threats, etc). Cheating was hugely common. Some companies actually had an unofficial policy of 'don't ban guild leaders for cheating if it can be avoided at all' because, well, most of them either cheated/exploited directly or supported guild members that did. I've banned mid-six figures worth of players. Not accounts, actual players. One guy was over 30 accounts. Most were free trials but he was paying significant monthly fees. Tons and tons of players though. Some games required you to submit it for review, others just required you file a ticket and then just get it done. Some big label games you've probably played didn't even have a default form e-mail or real method of tracking who got banned or why; you just were expected to hit a specific metric for resolved tickets (which included cheating reports) every month and be able to answer a specific ban question if it came up.

The problem isn't being 100% certain someone is cheating. That's not hard at all. It's just time consuming. Also it doesn't net you anything really, especially on a subscription model game but something like MW:O is in the same boat. It costs you money in a very direct and measurable way. Beyond that there is the huge PITA it generates from things like this and the threads on Reddit. You can't just post the log data that confirms 100% someone was cheating, that will help other cheaters avoid getting caught. So the cheater who gets caught plays the victim card and blames witch hunts or bias or admins/devs being MMMEEEEAAAANNNN to them and all you can do is stay quiet. I have never ever seen a single instance in any game I've been an admin on where someone was banned for cheating and there was even the most remote chance it was a mistake. Instead it was always seeing the ones you were 95% sure on but didn't have the time to nail down getting away with it or being told tracking it down wasn't worth the time and cost and effort.

Nobody who gets caught cheating is honest about it. They always say it was all lies and a setup or someone else with 'a friend on the inside' who got a dev/admin to ban them or they just got picked at random to be banned to make it look like they were doing something about cheating complaints or some other BS excuse. Then there's the flood of e-mails from the cheater or their friends trying to get it changed, the forum crap, so much wasted time because you can't just flat out tell them that you know and how you know they cheated because, again, that'll just get used to make catching the others harder. So you have to be circumspect and blunt and wait for it to tire out.

The cold, simple reality is that people who get banned for cheating are just the ones worth the time and energy and cost to go from 95% certain to 100% certain. The worse reality is that I would wager cash money every single person in this thread or posting on this forum has played with someone who uses cheats. Cheaters are never the quiet ones, they're the people who are competitive enough to think it's a worthwhile risk. They belong to groups and those groups probably have people who suspect them of cheating and never say anything.

Is what it is. More to the point PGI is never going to be able to say details about it. Be glad they're willing to put some energy into it, let it go and move on.

QFT!

[Appogee]

Piney, on 12 May 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

I predict a very short life for this thread.

You need to get out of the prediction game, son

[PACoFist]

There is only one cheat I know of. And I have to admit I already used it.

To use it, you have to save 12 million Cbills. Then you buy a Stormcrow and activate easymode.

[Jacon Ceronia]

I've noticed a significant increase in head shots, recently. Not just in my machines, but on our team. It's a little more than suspect when you have more than one or two guys die from head hits in the same drop, multiple times. It's as if the ban announcement has open the flood gates to even more players using these hacks-- but maybe we just had a night with some *really* bad luck. Either way, I appreciate MischiefSC's post.

[MischiefSC]

The ironic bit is that this will probably push a number of new people into cheating. It exists and works and there are always more "i won't get caught/I can talk my way out of it" idiots.

And they are idiots. Anyone using cheats is an idiot. They are rationalizing doing something stupid and banking on getting out of or avoiding punishment for it. It's not that they are bad people, I'm sure they have friends who will defend them, etc. They are just stupid. It must suck to be friends with someone who is that sort of stupid, you become guilty by association and the idiot puts you in the position of having to either betray a friend or defend someone stupid enough to cheat.

It's unfortunate all around.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 13 May 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

The worse reality is that I would wager cash money every single person in this thread or posting on this forum has played with someone who uses cheats. Cheaters are never the quiet ones, they're the people who are competitive enough to think it's a worthwhile risk. They belong to groups and those groups probably have people who suspect them of cheating and never say anything.

Ok, how much is the wager?

[Mystere]

Jacon Ceronia, on 14 May 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

I've noticed a significant increase in head shots, recently. Not just in my machines, but on our team. It's a little more than suspect when you have more than one or two guys die from head hits in the same drop, multiple times. It's as if the ban announcement has open the flood gates to even more players using these hacks-- but maybe we just had a night with some *really* bad luck. Either way, I appreciate MischiefSC's post.

Alternatively, people may have just been practicing on the really boring training grounds, and the effort and sacrifice is paying off.

[Torgun]

Mystere, on 14 May 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

Alternatively, people may have just been practicing on the really boring training grounds, and the effort and sacrifice is paying off.

Uh yeah because the training grounds are so new we shouldn't have seen this effect a lot sooner.

[MischiefSC]

Just quit thinking so much about it. You have a concern, file a ticket, move on.

Playing well isn't cheating and there are certainly some amazing players who have the skills to wreck face. The ironic thing is that there are probably some awesome players who still use cheats; Lance Armstrong and Tom Brady are closer to the norm for cheating archetype than the exception, but getting caught up in it doesn't help.

Let it go, move on, file reports when you see something suspicious then let it go.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 14 May 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

Just quit thinking so much about it. You have a concern, file a ticket, move on.

Playing well isn't cheating and there are certainly some amazing players who have the skills to wreck face. The ironic thing is that there are probably some awesome players who still use cheats; Lance Armstrong and Tom Brady are closer to the norm for cheating archetype than the exception, but getting caught up in it doesn't help.

Let it go, move on, file reports when you see something suspicious then let it go.

"No, we must form a lynch mob. We need to get our pound of flesh." - Typical online player