231 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Mystere, on 26 May 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

And all because some life-long collectors of participation trophies cried about "laser vomit".

Not only that, they cried about laser vommit while lasing away with 25% burn and heat bonused.......







Lasers

[Deathlike]

Johnny Z, on 26 May 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

Well I have been asking for Cheese Crow nerfs for a while now every chance I get. Maybe you could take a poke at the Crow? The speed and agility is off the charts for how much firepower it has and its durability.

Um, no. That's not how this works.

bad arcade kitty, on 26 May 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

btw, do you know that wolverine is significantly more agile than stormcrow?

why is it allowed to be more agile than any clan mech while having great positive weapon quirks too? meanwhile scr cannot even use lasers

The Wolverine is not used to the same degree as the Stormcrow. If that were the case, wouldn't we see them as frequently as the Stormcrow?

6K and 6R are one right arm away from being useless, and the last time I saw a 7K in force was a mech tourney (a mech tourney that I placed 5th in with an UNQUIRKED 6K).

Mystere, on 26 May 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

I think we'll just call this your version of Godwin's law for Clans.

It's not a discussion point and/or highlight, so if anything it'll dilute your opinion as you keep using it.

WM Quicksilver, on 26 May 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

Honestly, the best way to make the non-weapon side torsos more viable would probably to allow them to boost its respective arm with additional armor/structure but I don't know if they can do that with the way quirks are coded.

Have you seen the Warhawk-C's RT torso quirk blunder? It's doable.

Mystere, on 26 May 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

I don't know about other people, but, I'm feeling really salty right now, but not quite for reasons people might think.

The last round of misguided "adjustments" (i.e. they were one of the worst ones that could have been made) left a really bad taste in the mouth, especially for those who like stock load outs. And considering how and when PGI does things, immediately calling for more so-called "adjustments", with a very highly unlikely probability that the last ones will be reversed, just doesn't sit well.

And all because some life-long collectors of participation trophies cried about "laser vomit".

Well, it says more about PGI's "balance processes" or lack thereof in trying to figure out the best solution.... and when it hits, it never really "recovers" in the same way (see Raven's leg hitboxes), so it's one of those deals where no long term implication thinking is involved... only short term thinking "nerfs" that linger forever longer (168 degree torso twist Catapults? lol nope).

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Kit Fox and Adder was not built with a torso to twist! PGI gave you more range of motion than those 2 were meant to have.

Joe... a mech that didn't torso twist often was a non-competing mech in ANY MW game really. I mean, it's nice to remember non-torso twisting mechs for what they are, but it's hard to "sell it to the masses" (whether monetarily or just convincing people to use it) if that weren't the case.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Some of you seem a bit...confused.

McGral is NOT saying to reduce the SCrow's twist range AND keep the current laser nerfs ON TOP OF THAT!

The laser nerfs were a complete waste of time and effort, they did not remove the SCrow and Timby from God Tier status, they are still the best 2 Mechs in the game.

They are the best 2 Mechs in the game because of a COMBINATION of factors :

1) Weapon loadouts that exceed their Class by at least 1 catagory if not more

2) Speed that exceeds their Class by at least -1 catagory if not more

3) Agility, twist range, turn rate, accel/decel, that exceeds their Class by at least -1 catagory if not more

Clan Mechs are supposed to have a weapon loadout that is 1 Class higher or more, that's by design. They are supposed to have Speed that is higher for their Class as well. Those 2 factors alone make them superior Mechs without any help at all.

They are NOT supposed to be more agile as well, as that is NOT part of the BTech TT game at all. Whatever your size, whatever your speed, unless you are a Quad, your twist rate and range are IDENTICAL to every other Mech in the game. Firestarter, Kit Fox, Nova, SCrow, Wolverine, BattleMaster, Timberwolf, Atlas or Dire Wolf, you have the EXACT same torso twist range and speed, no difference. Accel/decel and turn rate are totally different in BTech and everyone has the same rates for those, it's just the amount you can travel/turn that vary based on speed.

When you give them all 3 factors, the Timby and SCrow become OP because NOTHING else in the game can match their performance overall. PGI screwed up and thought lessening their possible laser DPS was the way to fix them, it was not the right way to go, we've seen that already, it just messed with the lower end of the playerbase, that's it. DPS has gone up, damage and kills have gone up, overheating has DROPPED!

Many of us had already suggested, many times, that the proper way to balance out the SCrow and Timby was to lower their twist range, twist rate, accel/decel and turn rate. That leaves them with the weapon loadout and speed, so they are superior Mechs, but it removes the final part that combines to make them OP.

Remove those ******* laser nerfs, tweak the agility, that will make them more balanced.

And Clan Lights, some of you REALLY need to learn how the Clans operate or stop playing them. The Adder, it's NOT meant to be a speedy little deathball, it's meant to pack as much firepower as an Inner Sphere Medium and use those weapons at long range to snipe. It's a sniper, not a brawler, not a hit and run striker, a straight up pure 1 alpha kill sniper. Clan Lights are meant to pack the weapons of an IS Medium, handle like one, but have lower tonnage. They aren't meant to be like the IS Lights, fast and sneaky, that's not how the Clans operate. PGI actually got that totally on target, go figure.

[Lightfoot]

Because the other Clan Lights have tiny engines for Lights and the Stormcrow has a large engine for a medium. That's all it is. The Lights are actually more agile, they just don't have big enough engines, but that means they carry more weapons. Adjust your piloting to take advantage of the larger number of weapons rather than maneuvering. That's just how PGI set it up. In previous MW games Lights were always the tops in agility regardless of engine size.

[Mystere]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

Some of you seem a bit...confused.

McGral is NOT saying to reduce the SCrow's twist range AND keep the current laser nerfs ON TOP OF THAT!

...

Remove those ******* laser nerfs, tweak the agility, that will make them more balanced.

No one is confused. The problem is that removing those laser nerfs is not on the table unless PGI says they are. So giving PGi more nerf ideas without compelling them to remove those things is just a recipe for more "disappointment". That is my problem with all of this.

Let me ask you this. When was the last time PGI totally reversed recent changes and at the same time made a new set of changes? And for those, how long did it take to make them do so?

Edited by Mystere, 27 May 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

Some of you seem a bit...confused.

McGral is NOT saying to reduce the SCrow's twist range AND keep the current laser nerfs ON TOP OF THAT!

The laser nerfs were a complete waste of time and effort, they did not remove the SCrow and Timby from God Tier status, they are still the best 2 Mechs in the game.

They are the best 2 Mechs in the game because of a COMBINATION of factors :

1) Weapon loadouts that exceed their Class by at least 1 catagory if not more

2) Speed that exceeds their Class by at least -1 catagory if not more

3) Agility, twist range, turn rate, accel/decel, that exceeds their Class by at least -1 catagory if not more

Clan Mechs are supposed to have a weapon loadout that is 1 Class higher or more, that's by design. They are supposed to have Speed that is higher for their Class as well. Those 2 factors alone make them superior Mechs without any help at all.

They are NOT supposed to be more agile as well, as that is NOT part of the BTech TT game at all. Whatever your size, whatever your speed, unless you are a Quad, your twist rate and range are IDENTICAL to every other Mech in the game. Firestarter, Kit Fox, Nova, SCrow, Wolverine, BattleMaster, Timberwolf, Atlas or Dire Wolf, you have the EXACT same torso twist range and speed, no difference. Accel/decel and turn rate are totally different in BTech and everyone has the same rates for those, it's just the amount you can travel/turn that vary based on speed.

When you give them all 3 factors, the Timby and SCrow become OP because NOTHING else in the game can match their performance overall. PGI screwed up and thought lessening their possible laser DPS was the way to fix them, it was not the right way to go, we've seen that already, it just messed with the lower end of the playerbase, that's it. DPS has gone up, damage and kills have gone up, overheating has DROPPED!

Many of us had already suggested, many times, that the proper way to balance out the SCrow and Timby was to lower their twist range, twist rate, accel/decel and turn rate. That leaves them with the weapon loadout and speed, so they are superior Mechs, but it removes the final part that combines to make them OP.

Remove those ******* laser nerfs, tweak the agility, that will make them more balanced.

And Clan Lights, some of you REALLY need to learn how the Clans operate or stop playing them. The Adder, it's NOT meant to be a speedy little deathball, it's meant to pack as much firepower as an Inner Sphere Medium and use those weapons at long range to snipe. It's a sniper, not a brawler, not a hit and run striker, a straight up pure 1 alpha kill sniper. Clan Lights are meant to pack the weapons of an IS Medium, handle like one, but have lower tonnage. They aren't meant to be like the IS Lights, fast and sneaky, that's not how the Clans operate. PGI actually got that totally on target, go figure.

Its these factors along with high durability that make them OP. They are not as bad as before though. I knew these recent changes wouldnt be enough by the way. I get trolled for wanting a fair playing field alot lately but the Storm Crow is just begging to be nerfed more.

It may have been a hit reg bug but I was fighting one and it wasnt taking damage and just ran around spamming Streak 6's. Nerf the Streak 6's big time may be the problem to.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 May 2015 - 08:50 AM.

[Moldur]

Do people really view torso twist as such a huge factor? I honestly don't use most of the extra twist of the Stormcrow. Most mechs besides some limited ones like the dire and 4N have enough and anything beyond that is just gravy.

[Yokaiko]

Johnny Z, on 27 May 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

Its these factors along with high durability that make them OP. They are not as bad as before though. I knew these recent changes wouldnt be enough by the way. I get trolled for wanting a fair playing field alot lately but the Storm Crow is just begging to be nerfed more.

You are also a screaming whiner.

[Johnny Z]

Yokaiko, on 27 May 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

You are also a screaming whiner.

Arnt you goons supposed to be a bit more stealthy? Constant insults from the goon squad isnt an arguement, not to mention the goon squad insults mean nothing to me.

By the way I already know your next tack. Save it. I have seen you do it to others and I already have my reply ready. I dare you.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 May 2015 - 08:55 AM.

[Mystere]

Moldur, on 27 May 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Do people really view torso twist as such a huge factor? I honestly don't use most of the extra twist of the Stormcrow. Most mechs besides some limited ones like the dire and 4N have enough and anything beyond that is just gravy.

That depends on the play style. I myself take advantage of it. A great example is the Urbanmech and its 360-degree torso rotation (It's no longer just a "twist". ).

Edited by Mystere, 27 May 2015 - 08:54 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Johnny Z, on 27 May 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Arnt you goons supposed to be a bit more stealthy? Constant insults from the goon squad isnt an arguement, not to mention the goon squad insults mean nothing to me.

Whatever gives you the idea I'm a goon?

That damn near everything you post is nerf clans, my statement is actually that of fact, and it would take about 3 seconds to prove it.

Edited by Yokaiko, 27 May 2015 - 08:57 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Yokaiko, on 27 May 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Whatever gives you the idea I'm a goon?

That damn near everything you post is nerf clans, my statement is actually that of fact, and it would take about 3 seconds to prove it.

If this reply above wasnt completely false you may have a point. Cmon your not even trying.

[CygnusX7]

I walk backwards and torso twist almost forwards often..

[Deathlike]

Moldur, on 27 May 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Do people really view torso twist as such a huge factor? I honestly don't use most of the extra twist of the Stormcrow. Most mechs besides some limited ones like the dire and 4N have enough and anything beyond that is just gravy.

It depends on the mech in question.

If you were to give full 90 degrees on a Stalker... they would be a super incredible turret with their high mounts that they already have.

If you're not really using the extra torso twist... it's more like a pilot "issue" in not making the most of their mech. Having 120+ (more like 135) degrees of torso twist means you can virtually look back at your target, shoot them, and run away from them at the same time.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 26 May 2015 - 09:38 PM, said:

Stupid?

Sigh! You're probably just too much of a one-dimensional thinker to get the point.

2deep4u

[Johnny Z]

Huge torso twist range was increased for all medium mechs quite a while back to add to their viability. It worked to improve things for medium mechs quite a bit. The recent nerfs to the SC may not have been enough and does the SC need that twist range to keep it viable.

Why did the Wolverine get the super fat treatment and the Storm Crow get the stick man treatment is the question. I say redo them both. Really.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 May 2015 - 09:19 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mystere, on 27 May 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

No one is confused. The problem is that removing those laser nerfs is not on the table unless PGI says they are. So giving PGi more nerf ideas without compelling them to remove those things is just a recipe for more "disappointment". That is my problem with all of this.

Let me ask you this. When was the last time PGI totally reversed recent changes and at the same time made a new set of changes? And for those, how long did it take to make them do so?

PGI needs to look at the data, if the results agree with our own assessments so far, then MAYBE, if we get vocal enough about it, they'll realize they need to rollback the laser nerfs on the SCrow and Timby and instead go with the community proposed agility changes.

Do I have high hopes of this happening? Come on Mystere, we spar once in a while but we both want the same final result for MWO, and we're both all too aware of how PGI does things, sadly. That doesn't mean I will stop advocating for the proper balance actions, I just don't bet on them taking place

[Deathlike]

Johnny Z, on 27 May 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

Huge torso twist range was increased for all medium mechs quite a while back to add to their viability. It worked to improve things for medium mechs quite a bit. The recent nerfs to the SC may not have been enough and does the SC need that twist range to keep it viable.

Why did the Wolverine get the super fat treatment and the Storm Crow get the stick man treatment is the question. I say redo them both. Really.

That's not what happened.

The torso twist speed increase happened... but NOT a torso RANGE increase.

That is a very distinct difference.

Edit - Source:
http://mwomercs.com/...39-20-aug-2013/

Although, to be fair, there was some "range" increases, but that's only the Hunchback getting a buff, but most of it was for allowing mediums to look further up and down (which increased flexibility, but not by much).

Edited by Deathlike, 27 May 2015 - 09:28 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Lightfoot, on 27 May 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

Because the other Clan Lights have tiny engines for Lights and the Stormcrow has a large engine for a medium. That's all it is. The Lights are actually more agile, they just don't have big enough engines, but that means they carry more weapons. Adjust your piloting to take advantage of the larger number of weapons rather than maneuvering. That's just how PGI set it up. In previous MW games Lights were always the tops in agility regardless of engine size.

Without quirks, the Badder, Cute Fox and DoomCrow would have identical twist speed, and twist distance/angle is defined by PGI.


Because of quirks and PGI, the 55 ton robot is more agile than most 30 and 35 tonners, and some 25 tonners.

[1453 R]

Moldur, on 27 May 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Do people really view torso twist as such a huge factor? I honestly don't use most of the extra twist of the Stormcrow. Most mechs besides some limited ones like the dire and 4N have enough and anything beyond that is just gravy.

The twist range is enormous, which means several things.

1.) the Stormcrow's top speed is effectively amplified, as it can apply that top speed in more directions whilst still engaging the enemy. Very few 'Mechs can shoot directly 180 degrees behind them - the Stormcrow can (with its arms, provided no ballistics/PPCs), which gives it a big edge in skirmishing engagements,

2.) the 'Mech can utilize defensive twisting across a wider range of motion; i.e. its legs don't have to be directly facing its enemy for it to rotate damage all across its frame. You can, for example, be moving laterally compared to your target and still have plenty of twist range to spread damage across all three torso facings, rather than being forced to take it only on one side because you can't twist far enough to bring the other into line.

3.) finally, and most importantly in the eyes of most of the Doomcrow folks, the massive twist arcs combined with the 'Mech's heavily enhanced twist speed means it can't be flanked. Light 'Mechs have no safe engagement zone to angle for against a Stormcrow - you can't get at its back without more than one attacker going after it unless you catch the pilot by complete surprise or the pilot is a total herpaderp. Wherever you attack a Stormcrow from, in a second tops you're going to be facing the thing's guns, and if you're in a light 'Mech, it's going to outgun you by a goddamn lot. Streakboat Stormcrows are more or less an impenetrable anti-light system (ALS? NO BAD 1453) which swats entire legions of bugs without a care in the world because light 'Mechs cannot get away from it. They can't slip out of its arcs because counting its arms it's got over 180-degree coverage, and it's fast enough to hound most lights into ruin if it decides to focus on that. The only way to win is not to play to stay out of its range entirely, which generally means you're also out of your range and cannot engage whatever the Anti-Light Crow is shielding from harassment.

The Stormcrow's base 130 twist arcs are a pretty monumental advantage, and its native 20+% twist speed bonuses are frosty orange-flavored icing on top of a pretty awesome cake. Combined with the Crow's excellent weight bracket and MWO-optimal construction, and that 360-degree killbox ability of the machine makes it very difficult to stop in CW, where it can be run in huge packs that can utterly crush anything they can't leave in the dust.

Outside CW it's not nearly so much of an issue, but it could still use some adjustment, which was the main thrust of this thread. How far the adjustment needs to go is a point of fierce debate, because the Stormcrow is just amazingly fun to play and a lot of Clan pilots, while agreeing that it could use some work (and a hitbox pass), are quite reticent to overdo it. Spheroid pilots are less hesitant about hitting it hard, though the reasonable ones also tend to admit that overdoing it would be bad given that the Stormcrow, by itself, has reinvigorated the previously desolate medium queues, and JohnnyZ wants it removed from the game with no compensation to its owners.

Speaking of!

Johnny Z, on 27 May 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

Its these factors along with high durability that make them OP. They are not as bad as before though. I knew these recent changes wouldnt be enough by the way. I get trolled for wanting a fair playing field alot lately but the Storm Crow is just begging to be nerfed more.

It may have been a hit reg bug but I was fighting one and it wasnt taking damage and just ran around spamming Streak 6's. Nerf the Streak 6's big time may be the problem to.

Man, just...stop. Everybody knows that 'fair playing field' is the last thing you're after. All you ever do is take nasty potshots at Clan 'Mechs, Clan tech, Clan players, or Clan lore/history with the franchise. Seriously? We get it. You don't like the Clans and you want them gone. Nobody wants to read it anymore, just like nobody wants to read Gyrok's rants the opposite way. Just STOP. You're not helping anything with this constant needling jerkishness, dude. If you just cannot deal with the fact that the Clans exist...blame the eighties. That ship has sailed since before half the playerbase was born, and it sure as shootin' isn't our fault that you're too salty to deal with it.