252 replies to this topic

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

honestly, aside from the Dual Gauss and PPC Krabs and DWFs, not that many are really that big a thing, because most of these jumbo alphas are not pinpoint, and thus spreadable. What those pics don't show is how just a little twist and the arms block almost the entire ST.

Okay.

Just, you mentioned hitboxes, so I figured I'd go get the info.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 08 June 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Okay.

Just, you mentioned hitboxes, so I figured I'd go get the info.

And thank you for that, I'm simply saying static front/back hitboxes don't tell the whole story, Or at least not always. But those arms seem to intercept a whole lot less fire than they used to.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

removing any ability to do precision aim, essentially removes it a sa valid tactic. Is it OP now? No. And you can precision aim. It's just difficult. And the prevalence and viability of Jump Sniping now, is just about right. Unless, of course you are like someone on this Thread that needs help poptarting with his steering wheel.

No, it doesn't remove it as a valid tactic, it removes it as a way to blow Mechs apart without any risk, which is exactly what caused the issue in the first place for MWO. MW2-4, poptarting was a problem due to how 3rpov allowed you to target Mechs you literally had no LoS on, know exactly where they were, poptart and nail them, rinse repeat.

MWO's poptart issue was that Mechs fall so quickly that there's little if any risk for poptarting. People were whining about a 35 pt pinpoint alpha that was usually delivered without any risk, and we know PGI's resultant slash and burn response to those whines. Now we have Mechs who can jump AND do 2x that alpha in ppfld, giving ANY of those the ability to put that much ppfld on a Mech while poptarting, which means little risk of return fire, no way in hell that's going to be allowed to happen by the playerbase OR PGI.

Simple solution, retshake from JJ start to landing. JJs can once again WORK, PPC/ERPPC can have their velocities upped, I actually like the gauss charge so leave that alone, and viola, Highlanders and do their Burial dance, Victors can kick Grasshoppers in the face and Direwolves can actually JJ from the bottom of the canyon to the top level on Canyon Network! None of them can put their full alpha directly where they want it, and the shake means convergence will be off, so NO ONE should be having their little shitfits about poptarting again.

I SO want to take a Highlander out for a little dancing....

[Lugh]

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 June 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

No, it doesn't remove it as a valid tactic, it removes it as a way to blow Mechs apart without any risk, which is exactly what caused the issue in the first place for MWO. MW2-4, poptarting was a problem due to how 3rpov allowed you to target Mechs you literally had no LoS on, know exactly where they were, poptart and nail them, rinse repeat.

MWO's poptart issue was that Mechs fall so quickly that there's little if any risk for poptarting. People were whining about a 35 pt pinpoint alpha that was usually delivered without any risk, and we know PGI's resultant slash and burn response to those whines. Now we have Mechs who can jump AND do 2x that alpha in ppfld, giving ANY of those the ability to put that much ppfld on a Mech while poptarting, which means little risk of return fire, no way in hell that's going to be allowed to happen by the playerbase OR PGI.

Simple solution, retshake from JJ start to landing. JJs can once again WORK, PPC/ERPPC can have their velocities upped, I actually like the gauss charge so leave that alone, and viola, Highlanders and do their Burial dance, Victors can kick Grasshoppers in the face and Direwolves can actually JJ from the bottom of the canyon to the top level on Canyon Network! None of them can put their full alpha directly where they want it, and the shake means convergence will be off, so NO ONE should be having their little shitfits about poptarting again.

I SO want to take a Highlander out for a little dancing....

There was always risk bak during pop tart meggadona, my unit would set a firing line and annihilate people that did it.

Now, people don't expect someone pop looking it rarely draws fire.

For highlanders to do their burial dance they need collisions working properly with damage to legs and parts impacted.

Queue then the crying about how they killed themselves because they only had 30 points of armor on their legs.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Lugh, on 08 June 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

There was always risk bak during pop tart meggadona, my unit would set a firing line and annihilate people that did it.

Now, people don't expect someone pop looking it rarely draws fire.

For highlanders to do their burial dance they need collisions working properly with damage to legs and parts impacted.

Queue then the crying about how they killed themselves because they only had 30 points of armor on their legs.

I personally had NO issues with poptarting in MWO, it was like a good old fashioned duck hunt to this Okie boy, and I'm STILL poptarting myself

This is a fix that keeps the MASSES and Russ and Paul happy, that's all. It fits lore and canon, it allows us to get Paul's superhyperactive kneejerk responses UNDONE! And I can actually get my Highlander to jump high enough to land on a Jenner!

Yes, I know, we need working collision damage and all that to actually do the Burial, but if we had all that right now, I could NOT get a Highlander high enough into the air to do one, unless I happened to get one like I did in CB with my Atlas, walk off a cliff and land on a Jenner. Yes, I did that, got a DFA with an Atlas, it was a friendly Jenner, my CO in SRM no less, but by the gods, I GOT A DFA IN A NO JJ ATLAS!

[Lugh]

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 June 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

I personally had NO issues with poptarting in MWO, it was like a good old fashioned duck hunt to this Okie boy, and I'm STILL poptarting myself

This is a fix that keeps the MASSES and Russ and Paul happy, that's all. It fits lore and canon, it allows us to get Paul's superhyperactive kneejerk responses UNDONE! And I can actually get my Highlander to jump high enough to land on a Jenner!

Yes, I know, we need working collision damage and all that to actually do the Burial, but if we had all that right now, I could NOT get a Highlander high enough into the air to do one, unless I happened to get one like I did in CB with my Atlas, walk off a cliff and land on a Jenner. Yes, I did that, got a DFA with an Atlas, it was a friendly Jenner, my CO in SRM no less, but by the gods, I GOT A DFA IN A NO JJ ATLAS!

I did a similar thing in my dragon .. rolled off one of the cliff faces on top of a friendly jenner, got a LUGH WTF ARE YOU DOING?!?!?.

My response, Get in mah belly !!! Or get out of the way.

[Xetelian]

No.

Dual Gauss jump sniping DWFs would ruin this game.

Add shaking during a fall...it is simple.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Xetelian, on 08 June 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

No.

Dual Gauss jump sniping DWFs would ruin this game.

Add shaking during a fall...it is simple.

See? The majority of the playerbase is rabidly against this happening in any way, shape or form...

[MeiSooHaityu]

Xetelian, on 08 June 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

No.

Dual Gauss jump sniping DWFs would ruin this game.

Add shaking during a fall...it is simple.

Not THAT simple.

For heavies and assaults, sure. For mediums and lights, it takes away a survival aid and reduces the effectiveness of those mechs in a fire support role.

Maybe it isn't as critical to lighter mechs like I think it might be, but it is a mechanic that probably makes mechs like the Panther, Vindicator, and even Urbanmech more useful (especially the Vindi and Urbie).

All I'm trying to say is, it isn't really THAT simple.

[Mechteric]

Jump jets can be good without making poptarting "come back". At least not like it was before they became float jets.

[Gladewolf]

Jump firing at short and long ranges never left. it's just not popular.

[Alistair Winter]

I think medium mech jump jets are almost where they need to be. Medium mechs can jump snipe rather effectively right now, and they lack the firepower to make it a universal problem like the Highlander, Dragonslayer and CTF-3D poptarts.

Heavy mechs and assault mechs need their jump jets buffed in a way that improves their mobility without making them super lethal jump snipers. For my money, I think the best option is to do one of two things:

• For heavy and assault mechs, decreaste thrust, increase fuel capacity and maintain a delay on the reticule shake as the jump jets die down. Drastically decrease how fast jump jets recharge. This will let assault mechs slowly jump on top of very tall obstacles, without being good poptarts.
  
• As an alternative, just implement the explosive leaping jump jet mechanic they had for MW:LL. It seems fine.

Light mech jump jet fuel capacity needs to be increased and light mechs shouldn't lose speed so quickly when jump jetting. The loss of speed makes long jumps very useful for PPC poptarts (Panther, Mist Lynx, Spider) and often a really bad idea for other light mechs (Jenner, Raven). Right now, it seems like most people just equip jump jets on Jenners to climb hills and small cliffs, it's not really used in the middle of a brawl as much as I'd like.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 08 June 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[CptGier]

DarthRevis, on 08 June 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

It never left....well maybe the steering wheel underhive.

Everything sensible left the underhive.....

[Soy]

Mavairo, on 08 June 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Leave it in the gutter where it belongs.

It wasn't terribly hard to beat most pop retarts.
It also wasn't particularly fun either way.

It's a brain dead build, that's why it was meta. Even a chimp could be showed how to do it. That's the definition of a proper meta build.

People also act like mwo is some high skill game. It really isn't. Try world of warships sometime, where you actually have to account for distance in your shots, travel speed (of both yourself, and your target), maximize your armor by angling your attack angle to make shots bounce off your armor, and still be able to fire afterwards, and deal with inertia, and positioning. Then actually have to worry about how mobile your enemy is, or isn't (instead of just loading up on the heaviest, nastiest mech you can squeeze in with as many guns duct taped on).

I tried pop retarting, and was utterly bored in 3 days of doing it, back when it was the meta. Too easy.

That being said, it's EASY to have working JJ.which is what we should have had to start with.
JJ should push the mech forward, as much as they push your mech upwards, and quickly. They're used in battletech to clear terrain. As they sit now, and as they sat before they weren't the best for doing that.

Incorporate shake, up AND down on the JJ burn and there you go. Fixed JJs.

dat butthurt doe

[Revis Volek]

Soy, on 08 June 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

dat butthurt doe

The butthurtiest i seen in a while.......

[Bishop Steiner]

DarthRevis, on 08 June 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

The butthurtiest i seen in a while.......

may be butthurt, but it ain't exactly untrue, either. just sayin

[Gyrok]

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 June 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

See? The majority of the playerbase is rabidly against this happening in any way, shape or form...

That may likely be simply because they have forgotten about Dual Gauss CTF-3Ds from way back in the day...lol

Edited by Gyrok, 08 June 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

may be butthurt, but it ain't exactly untrue, either. just sayin

That whole part about it being NO SKILL, it may take less then other games but this isn't Candy Crust either.

Which is why he got the reaction from me he did...

[Mazzyplz]

no thanks, it's fine when you're shooting flyers with ppc -
but lasers are garbage to keep on target when the enemy is jumping around like a flying saucer;

in particular shooting pulses at an enemy that is flying in an arc; it still sucks vs panther btw

good riddance i say

unfair advantage over laser users

Edited by Mazzyplz, 08 June 2015 - 12:58 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gyrok, on 08 June 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

That may likely be simply because they have forgotten about Dual Gauss CTF-3Ds from way back in the day...lol

Nope, they see that a Dire can hold 2 gauss AND 4 ERPPCs, and that's what they are so rabidly against. Timby can do what, 2 gauss and couple of ERPPCs? It's all relative, ppfld alphas are 2-3x what they were at the height of the poptarting massacres, people who were here for those and still have nightmares will NOT allow that to happen again. I'll bet Russ and Paul both have nightlights

Like I said, it didn't bother me, I STILL do it, albeit in smaller Mechs with much lesser alphas..sorta kinda(love my Nova), so this isn't what I really want, but it's something that should placate the masses and allow Russ and Paul to not have any more nightmares.