252 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

Cathy, on 08 June 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

jump snipping still happens.

Mid air castration?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Sjorpha, on 08 June 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

Mid air castration?

It's a niche skill, but oh so effective on Lights

[Lightfoot]

I suggested increasing the recharge time of the jump jets in exchange for much greater height. There is a poll over in Suggestions. It's a fair trade-off. You could do some jump-jet attacks, but you couldn't rely on it. In exchange your jump jets could make your mech agile enough to make a quick escape or sudden attack instead of just hovering in your opponent's crosshairs.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

Jump sniping never left. It simply shifted, and fell, rightly, into the hands of those with the skills to pull it off.

I get it, you don't want poptarting to dominate the game completely as it once did.


Neither do I, it was pretty stifling.


However, if it had simply shifted only to people with skill then it would be used in competitive environments - and it is not.


It's not used there because it is inferior to other builds, and/or the mechs that can do it are inferior to other mechs (that can't poptart at all).




Even the best skilled players do not use it when they are playing to win, because the results are not as good as the results they could achieve with other choices - especially when they will be facing other very skilled and coordinated opponents who will be using those other choices.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 08 June 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Pjwned]

It is arguable whether your shots should be accurate when falling back down from a jump, but assuming that's not going to change...

I'm fine with pop-tarting being a viable tactic if you want to build your mech in such a way. The problem with pop-tarting back in the day was that single jumpjets gave almost max thrust, fall damage was pretty much not a thing, autocannons had 3x max range for some stupid reason, regular PPC shots traveled too fast, jumpjets generated essentially no heat, and possibly 1 or 2 other issues as well as terrible overall balance aggravating the pop-tarting issue.

Should jump sniping come back the way it was (before it was nerfed heavily) with unbalanced jumpjets and all that crap? No, absolutely not, but if some adjustments were made to make pop-tarting more attractive while not being detrimental to the game in some other way (such as buffing jumpjets too much or something, I don't really know) then that would be fine.

Edited by Pjwned, 08 June 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 08 June 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

I get it, you don't want poptarting to dominate the game completely as it once did.


Neither do I, it was pretty stifling.


However, if it had simply shifted only to people with skill then it would be used in competitive environments - and it is not.

Not really so. It was overwhelming because it was easy. Like it or not, the competitive scene uses the Meta, because it's the easiest to get results with. When you are looking for every advantage, that is an important distinction. Because it is not the clear cut no risk/all reward tactic it was, it is not the choice. And yet virtually all comp players who like JJs still use it, simply they don't lean on it like a crutch anymore.

Being viable, being useful does not mean something has to be the Meta.

Comps use the path of least resistance, let's not pretend otherwise.

[Khobai]

jumpsniping was never the problem

precision aiming and pinpoint convergence were the problem. without them jumpsniping would be perfectly fine.

[XX Sulla XX]

No we do not need long range front loaded damage where they only have to expose themselves for a second. Its bad for the game.

[Mystere]

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 June 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

See? The majority of the playerbase is rabidly against this happening in any way, shape or form...

Majority rule, or mob rule? Democracy, or tyranny of the masses?

Based on some of the posts here, methinks people are suffering from psychological trauma induced by poptarts all the way since MW2.

Just make JJs stop being hover jets and have them thrust the Mech forward as it should and be done with it.

Edited by Mystere, 08 June 2015 - 03:50 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mystere, on 08 June 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

Majority rule, or mob rule? Democracy, or tyranny of the masses?

Based on some of the posts here, methinks people are suffering from psychological trauma induced by poptarts all the way since MW2.

Just make JJs stop being hover jets and have them thrust the Mech forward as it should and be done with it.

I think it's a bit of both really, poptarting in the previous MW titles WAS incredibly abused so many people just immediately flashback to that and lose it, including, I think, Paul and Russ.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

Not really so. It was overwhelming because it was easy.

It was overwhelming because of the chassis it could be run on, the loadouts they could bring and the ability to deny the enemy return fire.

No one cares about a poptarting Panther with 1 PPC, that's not a loadout that will see teams win a match.

Nothing is "easy" when an equally skilled opponent brings the exact same thing.

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

Like it or not, the competitive scene uses the Meta, because it's the easiest to get results with.

The meta is winning trades, really.


The load out of the times is irrelevant.


At one point, poptarting 3D, DS & 733C were the best at winning trades against other mechs and builds - and at worst equally matched against each other.

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

And yet virtually all comp players who like JJs still use it, simply they don't lean on it like a crutch anymore.

They don't use it competitively, because it fails against other builds - it's not strong enough, it's not consistent enough.

I don't have the perspective that it's a crutch, personally, but that's just somewhere we differ.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 08 June 2015 - 03:55 PM.

[Mystere]

Ultimatum X, on 08 June 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

However, if it had simply shifted only to people with skill then it would be used in competitive environments - and it is not.

It's not used there because it is inferior to other builds, and/or the mechs that can do it are inferior to other mechs (that can't poptart at all).

Even the best skilled players do not use it when they are playing to win, because the results are not as good as the results they could achieve with other choices - especially when they will be facing other very skilled and coordinated opponents who will be using those other choices.

I think this is a good viability test.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 08 June 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Nothing is "easy" when an equally skilled opponent brings the exact same thing.

the tactic itself is still easy. Just as laservomit is easier than using PPFLD right now, hence the meta. The skill of the players are irrelevant to the actual meta. Most reward, for least investment will always be what it is about, and the player skill just ramps up the actual lethality.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2015 - 05:48 PM, said:

the tactic itself is still easy. Just as laservomit is easier than using PPFLD right now, hence the meta.

On HPG Outreach, where more comp players post as opposed to here, I have never seen anyone of them say anything other than poptarting having the highest skill requirement.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 08 June 2015 - 06:00 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 08 June 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

On HPG Outreach, where more comp players post as opposed to here, I have never seen anyone of them say anything other than poptarting having the highest skill requirement.

gosh that explains 90% of the population doing it then.....

You know, everyone can drive a car too (well, OK, that might be pushing it) still not the same as being a formula 1 racer. But the basics are the same. Driving a car is easy. Taking it to it's limit, is not.

And of course, the Comps are never above tooting their own horns..... *rolls eyes*

Yup, you're right. Poptarting was uberhard height of all skills.

[Soy]

PUSH IT TO THE LIMIT

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

gosh that explains 90% of the population doing it then.....

Doing it and doing it well are two completely different things.


Whether or not they were really good at it, or just average, it was still the strongest build available - so of course people will use it.

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

And of course, the Comps are never above tooting their own horns..... *rolls eyes*

I don't see what that has to do with it.


They use lasers right now, they do very well with them and they still say that poptarting had the highest skill requirement.

I don't see them saying 'only us comp guys could do it', I see them saying things like 'making moving snapshots with a projectile while your target is moving has a high skill requirement'.

[Soy]

poptartin newbs like a bat out of hell, you crash the ^_[cw] gate
(crash the gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate)

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 08 June 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Doing it and doing it well are two completely different things.


Whether or not they were really good at it, or just average, it was still the strongest build available - so of course people will use it.






I don't see what that has to do with it.


They use lasers right now, they do very well with them and they still say that poptarting had the highest skill requirement.

I don't see them saying 'only us comp guys could do it', I see them saying things like 'making moving snapshots with a projectile while your target is moving has a high skill requirement'.

and still totally missing the point of what was actually said..... IDK if intentionally obtuse or what, but keep trucking maestro.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jump sniping is harder to master than laser vomit, no question. Sure its easy to pwn newbs poptarting, but its easy to pwn newbs doing anything so....?