127 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm not a huge fan of less damage on unlocked targets, but I'm open to seeing how that plays out.

There has been a ton of criticism about a lack of role warfare, so PGI is making an effort and looking at creative options to create a scouting role for some lights.

I'm not sure I like the idea of the reduced damage on non targeted mechs. The issue with me is less about the logic of it, but more about the buff to ECM mechs. Even with a reduced bubble, ECM still protects the ECM mech. Granted I don't think the damage reduction to weapons will be much, but still, why buff indirectly buff ECM mechs?

Anyway, like I said, I'm open to seeing how it goes. Its just testing so I say test away and let PGI gather data on how it plays out.

[SgtMagor]

sounds interesting, there certainly seems to be something going on that more than meets the eyes.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Being a test I am not going to freak out and overall I tend to like their direction with the changes. I doubt the Clasers will end up as cut as the test.

[sycocys]

Maybe, just maybe the damage reduction will convince people to use something other than lasers?

A tag?
Some varied AC weapons.
Srms that don't need locks (assuming the fix the hitreg)

You just generally make the game more interesting and complex instead of "See red dorito - click 8 laser alpha"

[xImmortalx]

I for one like the ECM changes. No longer is it a God-box that can only be countered by another ECM or rarely-used missle support weapons (NARC, TAG). In the new sensor framework all it does is offer some buffs. I'd like to see them take it further than that and balance the buffs with the tonnage/slot requirement so that it can be unlocked for all mechs and becomes situational equipment, rather than the be-all-end-all of sensor packages (current ECM), or nearly useless (BAP).

I've noticed a worrisome pattern in MWO, to rehash the mistakes of >10 years ago in MW3 and MW4 and then try to reinvent the wheel, even though those lessons are already learned. PPC boats, Gauss/PPC poptarts, CERML supremacy, Laser boats, Laser/Gauss boats and hill humping/corner peeking were all "meta" in one of those two games. Why, instead of learning from the past, are we being condemned to repeat it ad nauseum? To quote a favorite book of mine, "as the chorus girl said to the business man, we've been here before."

I said that in order to make a bold prediction. In MW4, those of you that remember the sensor model remember that in order to even have a chance to maneuver unseen you had to switch your radar to passive mode and become essentially radar blind for the chance that the other team wouldn't spot you via radar and counter your maneuvering. So pilots adapted quickly and learned to rely primarily on their eyes to spot enemies and radar became a very sparingly used tool. My feeling is that these "info-war" quirks will at best have a negligible effect on anyone but the most novice of players. People will simply get used to relying primarily on their eyes and firepower, survivability and maneuverability will still remain the primary criteria in mech selection.

One possible way to make this workable would be to apply a reduction in damage to any weapons being fired at a non-locked target, as a way to simulate a convergence nerf. This would make lights and mediums much more useful as the heavy hitters would have to rely on them to lock targets so they can get their full damage downrange.

Edited by xImmortalx, 14 October 2015 - 03:12 AM.

[oldradagast]

Lol... what?

So, weapons are going to do less damage against unlocked targets? WHY?!?!?! Please explain how not having a target lock magically sucks energy out of my laser, causing it to deal less damage?

Lunacy! They could just add a small cone of fire that's in effect at all times, and have the cone tighten up a bit if you have a target lock. That makes A LOT more sense and also reduces the problem of pinpoint alphas in the game... and the game already has cones of fire (MASC, jump jets, machine guns).

Not providing a cross-hair flash on hitting unless the target is locked is also just stupid, but it is a great way to conceal the game's cruddy hit-detection because now you'll never know better!

I also like having assault mechs blind. That makes sense... take the mechs that NEED to know what's going on and blind them. Also, it nicely removes their ability to use LRM's - nerf the weakest weapons in the game - great idea! Yeah, yeah - "teamwork" will fix this... in the PUG queue... with people who can barely hit "R" - sure.

Looks like just more nerfs that will achieve nothing. Until the issue of high-damage pinpoint alphas is dealt with, balance will not be achieved. Instead, now we'll just have to scrap out the mechs we have for ones that either don't use lasers or ones that have good, magical "info-tech skillz" to deal full damage. Are Gauss Rifles any good? Gee, I wonder if folks will use them even more since they don't depend upon sensors and aren't affected by heat-sink changes or magical laser wimpiness.

Edited by oldradagast, 14 October 2015 - 03:20 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Anarcho, on 13 October 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

We want role warfare!

*pgi makes infotech*

PGI suck balls!

@topic: seens like cool ideas, just waiting the nerf hammer to hit clans though

And yes, makes sense lasers doing more damage in a locked target. You can say the computer helps it to focus instead of spread the damage all around...

Side effect, underhive might actually start to use the "R" key!

What a world we would live in if people actually targetted what they were shooting at...

[oldradagast]

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 02:54 AM, said:

Maybe, just maybe the damage reduction will convince people to use something other than lasers?

A tag?
Some varied AC weapons.
Srms that don't need locks (assuming the fix the hitreg)

You just generally make the game more interesting and complex instead of "See red dorito - click 8 laser alpha"

The problem is lasers are one of the few viable weapons in the game:
- PPC's are too hot, have horrible hit-reg, and have an idiotic minimum range that gets you killed... OR they are WAY too hot
- Autocannons are only worth using either in groups of 2 or 3 (smaller ones) or 1 big one, and many mechs lack the hardpoints or tonnage for that
- Missiles are useless: SRM's are slow, short range ,and don't register hits properly, LRM's are easily countered, and SSRM's are only good for Clans and only against fragile mechs because of the auto-scatter in damage
- LBX's are like autocannons, but weaker thanks to damage scatter and questionable hit-reg
- Flamers are useless

So, that leaves us with lasers and Gauss Rifles. To "fix" this, they are going to neuter all lasers, which will kill lower-tonnage mechs that can't carry anything else and just make the bigger ones use Gauss Rifles even more... and this doesn't fix any of the above problems I listed.

Edited by oldradagast, 14 October 2015 - 03:23 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Kira Onime, on 13 October 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

Can we also mention how no reticle flash is terribly unfriendly to new players?

New players have other things to worry about the reticle flash - best most of them do not even notice.

How about we stop the new player from entering CW with a trial drop deck. Do something to help the "new player" that has an actual impact.

[Sadist Cain]

I like the changes myself, will see how they play out on the test but theyre a step in the right direction.

[oldradagast]

Illya Arkhipova, on 13 October 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

they've stated time and again it doesn't work with HSR.

But a cone of fire does. A small cone of fire that tightens when you have a target lock is the easy way to do this. The game engine can already handle it - you see it when using MASC, jump jets, and machine guns - but instead we're going to get "ghost damage" on lasers... why?!

[SgtMagor]

finally read some of the TD:LR post from dev's. if there going to nerf the ECM and take away it nullifying target lock (opposite of the way its supposed to work afaik!), BAP. whatever happened to ECM projecting ghost targets?

[Galenit]

xImmortalx, on 14 October 2015 - 03:11 AM, said:

One possible way to make this workable would be to apply a reduction in damage to any weapons being fired at a non-locked target, as a way to simulate a convergence nerf. This would make lights and mediums much more useful as the heavy hitters would have to rely on them to lock targets so they can get their full damage downrange.

Or just use a cone of fire if a target is unlocked to simulate convergence.

oldradagast, on 14 October 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

Lol... what?

So, weapons are going to do less damage against unlocked targets? WHY?!?!?! Please explain how not having a target lock magically sucks energy out of my laser, causing it to deal less damage?

The focus point of a laser is the point where it brings the most energy (over some range you also need to compensate the atmospheric scatter).
You can do it manualy or use a system to do that for you.

Now the (not that much) space magic comes in: Your system (target computer) need a lock to focus your lasers on the target and compensate for the atmospheric scatter.


I have learned finemechanics for my institute, Atom- & Molekühlphysik, Abt. Quantenphysik (we were doing basic research), my job was to build systems like the one of the picture (this is not where i work, but i shows what we are doing). My prof said once to me, after i ask what we are doing: We dont know what we will get, we dont know for what it will be good, but watching Star Trek helps.

On the lasertable you see a lot of beamsplitters, adjustments for the beams and focuslenses. And thats only for a research table (that flows over some airpressur to reduce tremor) on a lab.

Edited by Galenit, 14 October 2015 - 03:44 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

TWIAFU, on 14 October 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

Side effect, underhive might actually start to use the "R" key!

What a world we would live in if people actually targetted what they were shooting at...

I was thinking myself that the change regarding the lasers for targeted or untargeted mechs was a terrible idea until this....

Make this change the same for all weapons... if you dont target, then they deal less damage. Its just so frustrating spectating someone who never uses the R button and insists on shooting a fresh torso on a legged mech. Having these players deal less damage is worth it to me that I may or may not deal a little less damage on a potshot towards a target of oppertunity.

[grayson marik]

Bah, if they'd implement a proper BV system, they would not have to nerv, buff or mindfu.ck anything like that. :-(

[l33tworks]

Troutmonkey, on 13 October 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

Yeah I really don't like that. Since they've made a new "You're locked and dealt damage" cursor animation they should keep the red flash for non-locked damage. Being in Australia and having average ping that sort of feedback is really required.

Yea I feel terrible about it. Started a thread like a madman.

http://mwomercs.com/...ngly-ludicrous/

Its really so crazy I don't think devs realise the gravity that change alone in their land of good pings


Its been pretty much a necessity since Quake.

Edited by l33tworks, 14 October 2015 - 04:00 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Galenit, on 14 October 2015 - 03:38 AM, said:

The focus point of a laser is the point where it brings the most energy (over some range you also need to compensate the atmospheric scatter).
You can do it manualy or use a system to do that for you.

Now the (not that much) space magic comes in: Your system (target computer) need a lock to focus your lasers on the target and compensate for the atmospheric scatter.

Seems like decent enough reason. It won't explain HPG Manifold as there is no atmosphere, but we will say the lack of focused damage is due to compensating for radiation instead of atmosphere. Yea, that's the ticket.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 13 October 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Lasers doing less damage against unlocked targets at certain ranges is especially derpy.

you know lasers have optics, lenses need to move to change the focal point of the beam so it has maximum energy density at target intersect. so you need to have range finding hardware adjust the focal point on target. i would have prefered a system that took about a quarter of a second to lock in and then you would get full damage. pressing r seems like a derpy shortcut to accomplish the same thing.

[Jetfire]

FupDup, on 13 October 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Lasers doing less damage against unlocked targets at certain ranges is especially derpy.

Derpy... a bit, but it is a sort of magic convergence fix. They can't give us real convergence so laser won't converge without a lock past nominal distance. I don't think it's perfect... but it isn't terrible.

[Galenit]

MeiSooHaityu, on 14 October 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

Seems like decent enough reason. It won't explain HPG Manifold as there is no atmosphere, but we will say the lack of focused damage is due to compensating for radiation instead of atmosphere. Yea, that's the ticket.

It does not explain hpg, the radiation would influence all targeting systems.
But if they would do that, they also need to reduce the overall damage of lasers on caustic and terra because of the ash and other particels in the air.
It would be nice to model that in too, but i think thats to much for a lot of players.
Thinking mans shooter, you know ....

Edited by Galenit, 14 October 2015 - 05:46 AM.