100 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 14 October 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

Going full disagreement.

Weak knees? It only took them 3 years. (December 4, 2012 was a dark, dark day.)

Weak-kneed in the context of PGI's history of sudden reversals and finally giving up on "this is what we envisioned, designed, and built <xxx> to be" due to loud, incessant, and endless whining.

In a related note, I will not be totally surprised if macros were suddenly banned. People already have it in their heads that PGI will eventually give in as long as the whining is very loud, incessant, and never ending. It is learned behavior.

Livewyr, on 14 October 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

It still is. With weapon hit notification and missile (and now *laser* effectiveness) tied to locking targets, which is hampered by ECM, it is still imperative that you destroy the ECM mech.

Now it just means I can load some support LRMs on a mech and not have them be dead weight most of the time. (nor do I have to carry more weight in counter gear than the ECM, just to use them at all.)

Within the context of the PTS, ECM is currently "weak sauce". It may also most likely turn out the same when released to the live environment, especially given the gleeful reaction of many. It is no longer the highly disruptive piece of equipment PGI originally envisioned, designed, and built it to be.

In spite of its binary nature, it actually made information warfare very important to the ECM deficient side. Well it was anyway for those who actually try to do something about ECM in-game instead of running to the forums. That so few actually actively try to do so is a shame for something originally billed as a "thinking person's shooter".

Livewyr, on 14 October 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

I don't know how you could be any more wrong when it comes to balance.
Balance is give and take. Benefit and Sacrifice. ("Balancing the scales") ECM was all Benefit, no Sacrifice.

For me, being able to decide what equipment to bring -- equipment that is available to everyone else -- is "balance enough" for me. But just because my idea of "balance" is very different from yours does not make me wrong.

I am not really fond of this "Team A must be a mirror image of Team B or it is not fair" mentality.

Livewyr, on 14 October 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

Live ECM: Terrible, Terrible, Terrible Concept for a PvP game. (PvE- all bets are off as you are the hero and the fun of other people is not related to how overpowered your avatar is.)

I disagree.

Livewyr, on 14 October 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

Very good. Continue to do that. We (on your team) appreciate that greatly, and will continue to.

As always, I will do what I want to do. I do not need or seek anyone's approval to do so.

[Mystere]

ZenFool, on 15 October 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

No other piece of equipment has caused the havoc ...

There is a very good reason why some people call ECM "highly disruptive technology" and as a result like it just fine, yours truly very much included.

[Rinkata Prime]

YES ! ! !
Finally ECM goes in the RIGHT WAY!

PGI, please, do not stop on reducing ECM bubble, and COMPLETELY REMOVE IT, make it MORE lore friendly!

LIKE THIS TEST, LIKE IT, LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE!!!

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 05:15 AM, said:

ECM isn't even dead, it's just less powerful.

If you notice in the Patch notes, they have not implemented target acquisition time. When this is implemented, ECM will also increase target acquisition time making the mech harder to hit/damage with lasers as well as being more difficult to lock with missiles.

It's losing it's missile shield, and gaining a laser and missile soft counter.

It is now "weak sauce".

On a slightly more serious note, there is really no point in testing ECM right now without the target acquisition time, beyond testing it's new 90-meter bubble anyway. There is even a very high risk that people will demand -- loudly, incessantly, and with no end -- that it gets released with a zero target acquisition time.

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 05:15 AM, said:

I will still mount it on my mechs, but it is not a cost/benefit requirement anymore.

And that is what saddens me.

Screech, on 15 October 2015 - 05:30 AM, said:

Range nerf doesn't matter because ECM is not worth the tonnage. 1 and 1/2 tons for a 3 second delay is worthless. For many this is what they want but it definitely what it is. Not looking forward to the static gameplay this will induce but this is the bed that was made.

ECM is bad. ECM is the Devil's work. ECM must go away.

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 05:36 AM, said:

You forget... it's in addition to acquisition time. (Which is not in the PTS.)

See my post above this.

[Livewyr]

Screech, on 15 October 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

You can pretend that doubling the time will matter all you want. For anyone in a medium or light the radar dep module will more then adequately cover for the new ECM and be tonnage free.

Just because you don't see it yet doesn't mean it ain't there. You know, shortsighted people are shortsighted and all.

So.. you're saying it becomes a choice as to whether to mount ECM?

Who would have thought!!!!! OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hint, just because it went from being an uber missile shield stealth jesus box to only hindering missiles and lasers, and providing limited stealth capability does not mean it is useless... you've just been spoiled by the Jesus box.

You're in withdrawal.

[Livewyr]

Mystere, on 15 October 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

It is now "weak sauce".

On a slightly more serious note, there is really no point in testing ECM right now without the target acquisition time, beyond testing it's new 90-meter bubble anyway. There is even a very high risk that people will demand -- loudly, incessantly, and with no end -- that it gets released with a zero target acquisition time.

Very much true. The full extent of ECM will be in play when the Target Acquisition times (and mech infotech quirks) are in effect. Until then, it is a shadow.

Mystere, on 15 October 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

And that is what saddens me.

Does not sadden me in the slightest. Not being able to bring any LRMs because they are dead weight half the time is not fun.

[Screech]

Livewyr, on 15 October 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

So.. you're saying it becomes a choice as to whether to mount ECM?

Who would have thought!!!!! OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hint, just because it went from being an uber missile shield stealth jesus box to only hindering missiles and lasers, and providing limited stealth capability does not mean it is useless... you've just been spoiled by the Jesus box.

You're in withdrawal.

The only choice for an ECM mech will be whether they will use the 1-1/2 tons for AMS and ammo or an extra DHS and some armor.

Sorry I have perspective of playing this game pre-ECM and have an idea on what to expect.

[Gleech]

I admit I haven't played the PTS yet, but, also put me down for a light-pilot with lots of ECM mechs who thinks the ECM nerf is an excellent thing that's long overdue. It's way, way too powerful right now, it basically makes LRMS and SSRMs almost useless. If PGI wants information warfare to be a thing -- or LRM support to be a thing again, at least in pugs -- then nerfing the bejesus out of ECM is a thing they're going to have to do.

My biggest concern is that they're also probably going to have to connect this with also slightly nerfing LRMs as well, to prevent another lurmpocalypse - or buffing AMS a lot, which I'd also be OK with. (I love my 3-AMS kitfox.)

I'm really looking forward to being able to take my Catapault out again, and being able to actually have *targets*!

[StalaggtIKE]

What players must use cover and/or carry AMS!? The meta is clearly broken.

[Kraftwerkedup]

ECM on its own was fine. 3-6 ECM on a team was ridiculous.

The new changes are considerably better given that they wont touch the MM and that would lead to impossibly long wait times trying to figure out what ECM mech goes on what team, while everyone else with ECM stacks up behind them waiting.

[Vlad Striker]

-50% range is not a trouble, lock possibility is a trouble. Age of LRMs incoming... I think ECM must increase locking time at far distance so it can make workplaces for spotters.

[Livewyr]

Screech, on 15 October 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

The only choice for an ECM mech will be whether they will use the 1-1/2 tons for AMS and ammo or an extra DHS and some armor.

Sorry I have perspective of playing this game pre-ECM and have an idea on what to expect.

I played this game pre-ECM too. (I remember Dec 4, 2012 all too well.)

ECM is useful for more than just anti missile. (And you can have both on most ECM mechs)

[Livewyr]

Oh, and some other things you need to consider:

Sensor locks are also different.
1: Atlas is not going to spot the mech 800 meters out there for you to shoot.
2: If there is a Jenner out there spotting for LRMs (good for him) but he also has to make sure he is close enough to the team to share info. (That's in the PTS notes too)
3: With acquisition time being a factor in the future (not present in current PTS so that is not testable) *everyone* has a degree of stealth.


(I just brought a couple racks in my bulid, it was not LRM heaven like Lurmapocalypse 1 & 2)

[Longstar]

OK, now that ECM is being limited, get rid of UAV. It was added to counteract OP ECM. It has too much benefit with too little, in-game risk (not talking about the cost of buying the consumable).

And since I'm already asking for one miracle of removing the UAV, I'll ask for a second one. How about adding random scatter to artillery/airstrikes? Right now they hit with the accuracy of someone throwing hand grenade at close range. Again too much benefit with too little risk.

Seems like too many people want to be able to do damage without ever risking receiving damage in return.

I know, I know. I'm either a dreamer or crazy or both.

Edited by Longstar, 15 October 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[Mystere]

Rinkata Kimiku, on 15 October 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

YES ! ! !
Finally ECM goes in the RIGHT WAY!

PGI, please, do not stop on reducing ECM bubble, and COMPLETELY REMOVE IT, make it MORE lore friendly!

LIKE THIS TEST, LIKE IT, LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE!!!

You don't get to hand-pick what should be lore friendly and should not. Otherwise, I'll be asking for the full and unadulterated power of the Clans and have balance be by numbers.

[Mystere]

Vlad Striker, on 15 October 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

-50% range is not a trouble, lock possibility is a trouble. Age of LRMs incoming... I think ECM must increase locking time at far distance so it can make workplaces for spotters.

Yes, an equation based on the inverse-square law should suffice.

[Mystere]

Longstar, on 15 October 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

OK, now that ECM is being limited, get rid of UAV. It was added to counteract OP ECM. It has too much benefit with too little, in-game risk (not talking about the cost of buying the consumable).

And since I'm already asking for one miracle of removing the UAV, I'll ask for a second one. How about adding random scatter to artillery/airstrikes? Right now they hit with the accuracy of someone throwing hand grenade at close range. Again too much benefit with too little risk.

Seems like too many people want to be able to do damage without ever risking receiving damage in return.

I know, I know. I'm either a dreamer or crazy or both.

Get rid of UAV? No. Way. In. Hades.

I want this instead.

Edited by Mystere, 15 October 2015 - 11:56 AM.

[Cementi]

I LOVE the ECM change. Combined with the sensor changes it is actually possible to scout with a light mech that does not have ECM.

The range thing, makes little difference to me. The fact that the cloak is gone is the bigger issue that makes me so happy.

Honestly considering how many chassis have ECM options even at 90 m it is pretty easy to keep the whole group under the bubble. However this might make ECM variants valued more because it is such a short range. Maybe upping it a bit would relax things so people did not feel compelled to bring it.

[Longstar]

Not a bad idea Mystere. I was thinking about something similar. I want the 360 degree sensor awareness that gets condensed into a 120 degree display view like the lore has. Then when the sensors get damaged/destroyed you have to rely on your eyeball view out the window. No more sneaking up behind and backstabbing like a WOW rogue because I cant see or hear or feel your multi-ton mech stomping up behind me.

Edited by Longstar, 15 October 2015 - 12:10 PM.