306 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Wilhelm Kerensky, on 08 August 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

We're always happy to have skilled and cooperative players join us in battle, even if not in the unit! I'm sure we'll enjoy your joining us again in the future!


Actually, I've been in quite a few matches where we were defending and PUGs were attacking, and it was usually a sad outcome on their part. We usually went on the offensive just to finish the match so we could maybe have a good challenge in the next drop...

The way that CW queues work is that they want to fill the 12-man requirement ASAP, so if there is a 12-man group (or one with enough men to fill out the balance of PUGs waiting for a match) it will start the drop much faster. This means that if a bunch of PUGs (or part of a unit and some PUGs) team up together in a common CW group lobby BEFORE picking a planet, then try to attack or defend, they will get drops MUCH faster against full 12-person enemy teams! This means more experience, more action, more XP, and more C-Bills! The ultimate goal you want to achieve is exactly 12 people so that you'll get dropped as soon as there is a 12-opponent group available... otherwise, you'll probably be waiting in "PUG queue" for quite a while.

If you are part of a PUG group, though, you should have a viable drop deck for the map you're going to be dropping on, as well as one that compliments the rest of the drop squad. Only use trials to learn your preferred style and earn some C-Bills, then get yourself some real mechs, customize them with help from websites / fellow Mechwarriors, and generally follow what I espoused in my last post. If you want a better advantage, but don't want to spend much money, then get a year's worth of Premium Time - it is worth the money if you are even semi-serious about the game, because the bonuses to XP and C-Bills help you get a Drop Deck By You ™ much quicker... Also, the ability to do trial runs with your builds, where you run around maps getting a feel for them and learning their actual viability, is really sweet!

The point however is that units are rarely if ever in the same queue on opposite sides. Same with pugs; it's far more common to have skittles vs unit than skittles v skittles and unit v unit.

It's a byproduct of design and it drives a lot of dissatisfaction for the pug population. There is no realistic solution that involves 'pugs need to...' whatever you want to tag on to that. There is a significant pug population that will drop in match after match after match and only win 1 in 10 matches. They do it all day, it's literally how and why FW still works.

[Wilhelm Kerensky]

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

The point however is that units are rarely if ever in the same queue on opposite sides. Same with pugs; it's far more common to have skittles vs unit than skittles v skittles and unit v unit.

It's a byproduct of design and it drives a lot of dissatisfaction for the pug population. There is no realistic solution that involves 'pugs need to...' whatever you want to tag on to that. There is a significant pug population that will drop in match after match after match and only win 1 in 10 matches. They do it all day, it's literally how and why FW still works.

What I posted was to help them get drops and play CW - if they refuse to join (or form) units, randomly run around with people, and then complain when they're getting stomped by 12-person units, or never getting any matches, why are they whining about it? That's the way the game is currently programmed, and if they are really interested in drops, then they need to adapt accordingly. If PGI split up the CW queues into "PUG-only" and "Unit / Full Group-only", then the PUGS would have the equivalent of a long Quick Play match. If they want to forever linger in Randomness, then that is what's available for them to do so.

CW was designed, from the beginning, to cater for organized groups of players who want to have a structured battle with other organized groups, more reminiscent of the old Battletech squad battles. If PUGs want to play in the "organized group of players" area, then they need to be part of an organized group of players, or stop complaining that they can't have their cake and eat it, too.

Separating the queue would simply destroy most chances of one type of player or another getting any drops, which would consequently destroy peoples' interest in the game, it would probably die quickly, and then no one could play...

So either put on your big britches and join a team, or run around pew-pewing for (comparative) table scraps. Unorganized, uncommitted players have one game type (Quick Play), and more organized, serious, interested players who can work as a team (like the original games were meant to be) have their own game type (Community Warfare). If you do not want to acknowledge and abide by the spirit of CW, and do not want to be a team player, lone-wolfing forever, then stay in QP and join us in CW when you're ready to get serious.

Otherwise, throwing a fit because you can't have everything cater to the way you think it should be for you will fall upon deaf and uncaring ears all the way around.

[MischiefSC]

Wilhelm Kerensky, on 08 August 2016 - 04:42 PM, said:

What I posted was to help them get drops and play CW - if they refuse to join (or form) units, randomly run around with people, and then complain when they're getting stomped by 12-person units, or never getting any matches, why are they whining about it? That's the way the game is currently programmed, and if they are really interested in drops, then they need to adapt accordingly. If PGI split up the CW queues into "PUG-only" and "Unit / Full Group-only", then the PUGS would have the equivalent of a long Quick Play match. If they want to forever linger in Randomness, then that is what's available for them to do so.

CW was designed, from the beginning, to cater for organized groups of players who want to have a structured battle with other organized groups, more reminiscent of the old Battletech squad battles. If PUGs want to play in the "organized group of players" area, then they need to be part of an organized group of players, or stop complaining that they can't have their cake and eat it, too.

Separating the queue would simply destroy most chances of one type of player or another getting any drops, which would consequently destroy peoples' interest in the game, it would probably die quickly, and then no one could play...

So either put on your big britches and join a team, or run around pew-pewing for (comparative) table scraps. Unorganized, uncommitted players have one game type (Quick Play), and more organized, serious, interested players who can work as a team (like the original games were meant to be) have their own game type (Community Warfare). If you do not want to acknowledge and abide by the spirit of CW, and do not want to be a team player, lone-wolfing forever, then stay in QP and join us in CW when you're ready to get serious.

Otherwise, throwing a fit because you can't have everything cater to the way you think it should be for you will fall upon deaf and uncaring ears all the way around.

Except that the current system is designed in such a way as to consistently drop pug teams and skittle teams vs units.

let me ask you this - if there were no skittles teams and it was 12man v 12man, do you seriously think MS, or any unit, would have even a fraction as good a W/L as it does now? I don't. I think good units would be slightly over 1.0, most units would be under. Farming pugs and skittles is literally sustaining the unit populations in FW right now. The bigger reality to face is that if PGI finally combines attack/defend and most your drops are suddenly actual unit v unit.... will you guys still play as much?

People like to win. Losing a string of matches can break a team up for the night. Winning all the time v pugs/skittles sustains a lot of 12mans in FW. I get that nobody will likely admit that here but it's the reality of what's sustaining FW. We are likely a year or so out from a fix given how PGI tends to operate.

[Wilhelm Kerensky]

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

Except that the current system is designed in such a way as to consistently drop pug teams and skittle teams vs units.

Wrong. It is designed to drop the two first 12-person groups it encounters, regardless of their makeup, on the planet that was chosen. This same line is nothing more than whining now - CW is designed to drop teams, not individuals. CW is named "COMMUNITY Warfare" for a reason - so community-style teams can play others. If you don't want to be part of a cooperative team, then CW is not for you.

MischiefSC said:

let me ask you this - if there were no skittles teams and it was 12man v 12man, do you seriously think MS, or any unit, would have even a fraction as good a W/L as it does now? I don't.

Well, you can conjecture all you want all day, but honestly, our W/L ratio is a nice side-note - not our main concern. We want matches against skilled players who give us a good run for our money. We like winning, but we really like good, honorable, strategic players who challenge us. Concern for W/L demonstrates a pubescent need to stroke your e-peen and ego. We like having it high, but it was simply a "Yay!" moment before we went back to playing.

MischiefSC said:

I think good units would be slightly over 1.0, most units would be under. Farming pugs and skittles is literally sustaining the unit populations in FW right now.

Once again, conjecture. Opinion. No facts, no hard numbers, and no way to obtain them. Nothing more than rationalizing. Sour grapes.

MischiefSC said:

The bigger reality to face is that if PGI finally combines attack/defend and most your drops are suddenly actual unit v unit.... will you guys still play as much?

Hell yeah! We'd be elated to fight more 12-person groups! Real challenge to test our skills and builds!

MischiefSC said:

People like to win. Losing a string of matches can break a team up for the night. Winning all the time v pugs/skittles sustains a lot of 12mans in FW.

Well then, the skittles need to join together as a group, train, cooperate, voice chat, etc like the big boys in order to compete against the big boys. If they don't play CW as it should be played, then failures are to be expected. Try playing the game style as it was intended before whining. Once you do like everyone else who does win, you'll start... winning!

MischiefSC said:

I get that nobody will likely admit that here but it's the reality of what's sustaining FW. We are likely a year or so out from a fix given how PGI tends to operate.

There is always a way to change that reality... stay in Quick Play and let the salt flow there. Then those groups who play as a community can enjoy CW without uncommitted PUGs dragging down the game by playing a team-required mentality gametype as Quick Play, losing all 4 mechs before we lose 1 or 2, then whining about whatever they want to blame is OP, instead of their lack of skill, teamwork, and cooperation.

Edited by Wilhelm Kerensky, 08 August 2016 - 05:46 PM.

[Karl the Plumber]

am i the only one who plays with global chat off?

[MischiefSC]

Do you seriously not understand how FW works?

Units drop attack, skittles get drawn to defense. Especially on the IS/Clan border. Units rarely drop defense until attack is sewn up. Are you saying this has radically changed with MS? Do you guys lead with defense? I'm finding that unlikely. You guys drop attack until the attack queue is at 100%, even if it's ghost drops. Almost every other unit does the same. Then a lot of people just flip off to pug/unit queue, you'll maybe get a 5man dropping defense for a few drops.

Most of your drops are against skittles. By a wide margin. That's what drives wins. I've been in plenty of matches with a few different teams that have beaten MS, I've dropped a ton of times with MS and seen tons of wins and losses. I know that you dunk if there's even a question and make your money on holds, unless it's been a quiet night or a couple ghost drops and people are bored.

If you were 'looking for good fights' you'd be dropping defense for the IS. That's going to feed you almost exclusively coordinated units with no wait for matches. However that's not the case, nor do I blame MS for that. MS (and most other units) are looking for attack queue matches and flipping planets, which you do in attack not defense. Skittles populate defense.

When we split queues and there were very, very few pugs MS complained very, very loudly. Didn't like waiting for matches, especially since everyone was in attack queues and nobody wanted to defend. Their response was not to populate the defense queue for the other side who was waiting to ghost attack like they were.

I realize you don't speak for MS, honestly not sure you could say any one person does. Maybe Khereg or Ken3ticX if only because they keep the MS Rumor thread going which is amazing. However when MS is ignoring attack queue in favor of defense queue so they can 'get good drops against good units' then I'd believe you. Given that is not how you take planets nor drive nearly as many wins, we both know that's not going to happen.

Blaming pugs for playing and not joining a unit is pretty pointless. I've always been in favor of a split queue, units and tagless. I'd be in favor of requiring people to be grouped up to play FW. Unfortunately that would functionally kill FW as you'd have a fraction of the people to drop against. You get matches not because there's other units in queue but because there's that horde of suicide pugs who will queue up to lose 9 out of 10 matches.

[Wilhelm Kerensky]

MischiefSC said:

Do you seriously not understand how FW works?

Would that be how the sorting algorithm works as programmed in the game, or the PUG QQ Conspiracy version?

MischiefSC said:

Units drop attack, skittles get drawn to defense.

Ahh, the Pug QQ Conspiracy version. It goes something like this: "We don't get the fights we want because we're just straggling around instead of forming an organized group for the organized groups play area, so when we get sent to whatever match type so it can populate a 12-man enemy group against an organized group, we get our butts stomped because PGI designed it that way!"

I already explained before - if PUGs would form into organized groups before launching, they'd have a much better chance of getting the type of battle they want, as long as there were adversaries. Otherwise, they can join other organized groups in the battle... or just PUG around like in QP.

MischiefSC said:

Especially on the IS/Clan border. Units rarely drop defense until attack is sewn up.

We drop wherever we can get matches, regardless of the Attack / Defend concern. If you're good enough, neither one matters when you have a good team you can trust.

MischiefSC said:

Are you saying this has radically changed with MS? Do you guys lead with defense? I'm finding that unlikely. You guys drop attack until the attack queue is at 100%, even if it's ghost drops. Almost every other unit does the same. Then a lot of people just flip off to pug/unit queue, you'll maybe get a 5man dropping defense for a few drops.

We drop attack until we are sure the planet is flipped, if it is congruent with our future attack lane plans. Otherwise, we drop wherever has the hottest action!

MischiefSC said:

Most of your drops are against skittles. By a wide margin.

Yes, and sometimes we're actually part of a Skittles team when just a couple of us are on. As I stated earlier - If you don't like being a in a Skittle squad, then join or create a group and get good. Drop with MS, learn, and if you're feeling froggy, challenge us on the field! How is it any of MS's fault that we have dedicated, enthusiastic, well-trained players who joined a group and learned, instead of lone wolfing?

MischiefSC said:

That's what drives wins. I've been in plenty of matches with a few different teams that have beaten MS, I've dropped a ton of times with MS and seen tons of wins and losses. I know that you dunk if there's even a question and make your money on holds, unless it's been a quiet night or a couple ghost drops and people are bored.

Why yes, we dunk if we think we're going to lose, unlike most PUG groups who try to dunk from the outset. We want a fight, but if we are beat up badly and can still snatch the win, we're going to do so. Every team wants to win, so unless you're saying you don't want to win... where's your point, exactly?

MischiefSC said:

If you were 'looking for good fights' you'd be dropping defense for the IS. That's going to feed you almost exclusively coordinated units with no wait for matches.

We choose our employers based on the contracts (we are a mercenary group, loyal to none) and how many fights we will have an opportunity to get into while under their employ. If an IS faction offers a good contract, and we think we'll actually get fights so we can make money, then we switch. We've been changing between clan and IS almost weekly... for months now.

MischiefSC said:

However that's not the case, nor do I blame MS for that. MS (and most other units) are looking for attack queue matches and flipping planets, which you do in attack not defense. Skittles populate defense.

Sometimes, but mostly now we want matches. We've done all sorts of attacks and defenses lately.

MischiefSC said:

When we split queues and there were very, very few pugs MS complained very, very loudly. Didn't like waiting for matches, especially since everyone was in attack queues and nobody wanted to defend. Their response was not to populate the defense queue for the other side who was waiting to ghost attack like they were.

Wow, so once again, MS is to blame for everything? PGI split the queues and no one really got drops worth a damn. That is why it was pulled, because since nobody got any matches, the interest fell off quickly, as did the players / customers / revenue stream.

MischiefSC said:

I realize you don't speak for MS, honestly not sure you could say any one person does. Maybe Khereg or Ken3ticX if only because they keep the MS Rumor thread going which is amazing. However when MS is ignoring attack queue in favor of defense queue so they can 'get good drops against good units' then I'd believe you. Given that is not how you take planets nor drive nearly as many wins, we both know that's not going to happen.

Are you saying that MS can control the choice of opponents, and also knows the teams queued up on the planets beforehand, before being prepped for drop? Wow, who doesn't understand how FW works here, exactly?

MischiefSC said:

Blaming pugs for playing and not joining a unit is pretty pointless.

I'm not blaming them for playing CW and not joining a unit, so much as I am tired of hearing the whining and seeing the salt flow because they chose to play against the more dedicated, organized players / teams, and got their rear-ends handed to them post-haste BECAUSE they didn't form an organized group and ran around each doing their own thing.

MischiefSC said:

I've always been in favor of a split queue, units and tagless. I'd be in favor of requiring people to be grouped up to play FW. Unfortunately that would functionally kill FW as you'd have a fraction of the people to drop against. You get matches not because there's other units in queue but because there's that horde of suicide pugs who will queue up to lose 9 out of 10 matches.

Well, if they refuse to learn, train, or improve themselves, then they are going to lose a large majority, if not all, of their matches. Faction Warfare / Community Warfare is designed for groups, Quick Play is made for lone wolves, plain and simple. We've played against organized Skittle PUG groups from main faction hubs and had some good fights, but they worked as a team and coordinated.

Everyone who PUGs (only) can bemoan their fates when they refuse to play in the spirit of the style of the game type. In the end, it all comes back to an unwillingness to adapt, coordinate, and improve...

...and any organized enemy group will use it for their advantage - to win.

[MischiefSC]

I get you want to justify. I do. I really do.

I know, like and respect the bulk of MS leadership and was part of the pre-round-table discussion with them and several other people where this was discussed already. I sincerely don't know anyone in any unit who doesn't see this play out every single day. This is why the idea Shimmering Sword put forward got so much support; it combines attack/defend queues and fixes this exact issue.

The absolute reality though is that if MS quit tomorrow FW would chug right along. Speedbump, generally the result would be less waiting for ghost drops in CJF. If the pugs and skittles you're mocking (and I've mocked many times for the same reasons) quit tomorrow FW would functionally end. Nobody in defense queues, nobody wanting to give up the advantage. Again, why should they? There's an advantage to be had in running up attack first. A significant one. Why would someone give it up?

However your unsustainable arguments and trying to pretend it's not reality just makes fixing FW in a real, meaningful way that much harder.

[gloowa]

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

I get you want to justify. I do. I really do.

I know, like and respect the bulk of MS leadership and was part of the pre-round-table discussion with them and several other people where this was discussed already. I sincerely don't know anyone in any unit who doesn't see this play out every single day. This is why the idea Shimmering Sword put forward got so much support; it combines attack/defend queues and fixes this exact issue.

The absolute reality though is that if MS quit tomorrow FW would chug right along. Speedbump, generally the result would be less waiting for ghost drops in CJF. If the pugs and skittles you're mocking (and I've mocked many times for the same reasons) quit tomorrow FW would functionally end. Nobody in defense queues, nobody wanting to give up the advantage. Again, why should they? There's an advantage to be had in running up attack first. A significant one. Why would someone give it up?

However your unsustainable arguments and trying to pretend it's not reality just makes fixing FW in a real, meaningful way that much harder.

Agreed. But then, what's the coice? We tried queueing defense, many times. The usual result is:

a ) if there were attackers, they keep dropping until they loose a match (or max 2), then they disappear. In many cases that means after 1st match. And then there are no ghost drops on def queue if planet is not partialy captured yet == long wait times, questionable c-bill income rate

b ) if there were no attackers, you sit in queue for 30 minutes and then move to a )

There is a reason most units drop attack - worst case scenario, they get ghost drop and earn a bit of cbills. In defense, no such option.

I DO want to find the good fight, but having ~1h, maybe 2h, to play, i will choose attack lane avery time, because i have spent too many of my eavinings waiting in defense queue, not getting any match for that day.

Attack/defense queue merger needs to happen yesterday.

Edited by gloowa, 09 August 2016 - 04:03 AM.

[iLLcapitan]

From my unit's perspective the days after the queue split were the golden age of CW. For a brief amount of time almost every single CW match was worthwile. Then people lost interest again. So my point of view is: we have the players, we have the teams, but without more depth/encouragement too little of the target audience can be bothered playing CW.

And as long as that's the situation, it's up to the players. Best matches lately were the scrimmages against MS, so reach out to other teams in your time zone and find a remote planet to drop against. Another band aid is reducing the size of your group (or once it gets big enough split it into 2).

We need some incentives that appeal to the competitives. There are many ideas out there how do so, but buckets isn't really one of them. Although I gotta say at this stage we welcome any change.

Edited by iLLcapitan, 09 August 2016 - 04:31 AM.

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

Karl the Plumber, on 08 August 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

am i the only one who plays with global chat off?

I do to actually.
Don't know how the MWO community generally is but from experiencing other online games it's a save bet to turn off the enemy chat.

[DivBy0]

I have it on. Most of the time (at least 95%) there are greetings and o7, a little friedly trash talk and later gg or wp and where the AFK or Disco is.
There are sometimes some not so nice people, but I block them seperatly permanent... problem solved

[MischiefSC]

gloowa, on 09 August 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

Agreed. But then, what's the coice? We tried queueing defense, many times. The usual result is:

a ) if there were attackers, they keep dropping until they loose a match (or max 2), then they disappear. In many cases that means after 1st match. And then there are no ghost drops on def queue if planet is not partialy captured yet == long wait times, questionable c-bill income rate

b ) if there were no attackers, you sit in queue for 30 minutes and then move to a )

There is a reason most units drop attack - worst case scenario, they get ghost drop and earn a bit of cbills. In defense, no such option.

I DO want to find the good fight, but having ~1h, maybe 2h, to play, i will choose attack lane avery time, because i have spent too many of my eavinings waiting in defense queue, not getting any match for that day.

Attack/defense queue merger needs to happen yesterday.

Again, want to make this absolutely clear -

I don't blame any of the merc units for playing what wins. All us dedicated loyalists are idiots for leaving advantages on the table, being a loyalist is flat out inferior to being a merc in FW. IS pugs will stand in line to lose 9 out of 10 matches and they'll come back day in and day out to line the spawn hill on Emerald or stand outside the gates on Vitric and lob LRMs and they shuffle back to lose repeatedly time and again to feed wins to the other team. They are the meat that feeds the grinder and they are why you can always count on matches when playing Clans and the majority of those matches are going to be quick wins.

How many matches does MS lose in a row before you start having people pack it in for the night though? Not calling MS out, just asking in the 'your unit' context. Every unit is the same. You have a bad run and people start to fade.

When attack/defend queues get merged and every single unit takes a significant hit to win/loss we need to be honest and ready for that. We've all been getting used to a system that feeds us a steady diet of suicide pugs where you can just say 'whatever, push in left gate, kill everyone, blow gens. We'll farm them on holds' and that's all the work you really need to do 8 matches out of 10.

We also need this. It needs to be absolutely worth it to run an 8man and 4 pugs every chance you get. KCom spent months training up CJF pugs and it really showed; while history also indicates that after KCom is gone a while they fall back into bad habits it makes a real difference both in player morale overall and population skill level when pugs get consistently integrated with actual teams. That's *why* MS does well; you guys do an amazing job of sharing skills and integrating new players into your process. Nobody gets good at FW by reinventing the wheel, you get good by having someone who is good show you what good looks, feels and plays like and doing it again and again and again until you develop those same habits.

The idea that defense is 'easier' is a myth. The moment your whole team is past their fear of being aggressive and taking risks that entirely reverses itself. Attack is easier because you always control initiative unless the defenders manage to steal it from you. You've got far more strategic options and you know you can always force a fight with the defenders. At this point though we've got this dedicated, significant pug population, especially in the IS, with bad habits developed for 18 months. We need the tools to really integrate them into the winning side of FW and everyone will have more fun. How many units have all but given up because even if you're winning 85% of your matches there's pug teams losing 90% right behind you? How many pugs have given up because losing 90% of the time just ain't fun?

We just need to be honest with the realities of what drives those mechanics so they can get fixed. IMO it's the lowest hanging fruit to resolve in FW; some minor queue changes, something like the 'red flag' concept put forward in town hall and Deathlikes idea of extra rewards for mixed unit/pug teams would go a long way toward that. A lot needs changed in FW to make it what it should be but those things could be done with deep benefits for even a shallow effort.

[Lily from animove]

Lady Alexandra Cousland, on 09 August 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

I do to actually.
Don't know how the MWO community generally is but from experiencing other online games it's a save bet to turn off the enemy chat.

this isn't APB, turn it on, it's actually quite a nice community.

Edited by Lily from animove, 09 August 2016 - 06:39 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Lady Alexandra Cousland, on 09 August 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

I do to actually.
Don't know how the MWO community generally is but from experiencing other online games it's a save bet to turn off the enemy chat.

It's very, very rare for me to hear anything from the other team except encouragement and good sportsmanship and friendly banter. Especially in FW we're a pretty inbred community, we know each other and many have played hundreds, even thousands of matches against each other. Good sportsmanship is pretty much the expectation and there's a *lot* of units that would have serious conversations with a member who was a jerk in all-chat. Makes your unit look bad.

You'll have more need to mute someone on your own team than you will to block something the other team said in chat.

Edited by MischiefSC, 09 August 2016 - 07:04 AM.

[habu86]

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

let me ask you this - if there were no skittles teams and it was 12man v 12man, do you seriously think MS, or any unit, would have even a fraction as good a W/L as it does now? I don't. I think good units would be slightly over 1.0, most units would be under. Farming pugs and skittles is literally sustaining the unit populations in FW right now. The bigger reality to face is that if PGI finally combines attack/defend and most your drops are suddenly actual unit v unit.... will you guys still play as much?

Yea, actually. Pug "farming" might be somewhat amusing for a drop or two at the most while you get warmed up, but a whole evening of that gets boring and, for some, even demoralizing.

Plus, you might not like to hear this, and I don't know if it's just my experience with MS or if others have it as well, but, outside of a (very) short list of other strong units, my W/L ratio against units is not very different from my W/L against pugs. I do like dropping against units though because it makes for more interesting games: I get to meet new people, see different strats, and, with any luck, we might even get a "series" started for the night.

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

Units drop attack, skittles get drawn to defense. Especially on the IS/Clan border. Units rarely drop defense until attack is sewn up. Are you saying this has radically changed with MS? Do you guys lead with defense? I'm finding that unlikely. You guys drop attack until the attack queue is at 100%, even if it's ghost drops. Almost every other unit does the same. Then a lot of people just flip off to pug/unit queue, you'll maybe get a 5man dropping defense for a few drops.

Haven't had a chance to drop as much this summer due to work, travel, and other commitments, but my experience has been that, between the lack of a specific stated goal for MS during this Phase of CW, combined with the availability of a single attack planet, and the general slowdown we've seen, things have changed a lot.

Folks are a lot more eager to get drops anywhere they can and are a lot less likely to sit through ghost drops, even if the planet hasn't been secured, and will more eagerly run off to drop defense or just regular queue. Or at least that's been my experience, dropping mostly during late-NA, early-Oceanic.

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

Most of your drops are against skittles. By a wide margin. That's what drives wins. I've been in plenty of matches with a few different teams that have beaten MS, I've dropped a ton of times with MS and seen tons of wins and losses. I know that you dunk if there's even a question and make your money on holds, unless it's been a quiet night or a couple ghost drops and people are bored.

That really depends. I don't know of every time you've dropped with us, but the period I remember, we were pushing really hard to get to Terra with Smoke Jag, so taking wedges was of paramount importance. If we're in a hurry, or if we're in a situation where we can no longer win on damage, or if the other team straight up moves WAY out of position, we will go for the objectives to try and secure the match win... I mean at the end of the day, we ARE playing to win, or at the very least maximize utility. Or is there a bonus payout for conforming to ritualistic gameplay formulas that I'm not aware of?

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

If you were 'looking for good fights' you'd be dropping defense for the IS. That's going to feed you almost exclusively coordinated units with no wait for matches. However that's not the case, nor do I blame MS for that. MS (and most other units) are looking for attack queue matches and flipping planets, which you do in attack not defense. Skittles populate defense.

Okay, maybe I'm misreading the leaderboards, but we've got about twice as many defensive planetary wins as offensive planetary wins. We do drop defense, both individually and as groups. We do so quite a bit, in fact.

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

When we split queues and there were very, very few pugs MS complained very, very loudly. Didn't like waiting for matches, especially since everyone was in attack queues and nobody wanted to defend. Their response was not to populate the defense queue for the other side who was waiting to ghost attack like they were.

iLLcapitan, on 09 August 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

From my unit's perspective the days after the queue split were the golden age of CW. For a brief amount of time almost every single CW match was worthwile. Then people lost interest again. So my point of view is: we have the players, we have the teams, but without more depth/encouragement too little of the target audience can be bothered playing CW.

Really? I had a really different experience myself.

That whole week I didn't lose a single invasion drop (in any invasion game mode to boot), no matter who was on the other side. Maybe it was because people took it seriously, tightened up their game, and dropped all-meta all the time. Whatever it was, aside from exactly ONE match that had a good, large group (forget who, doh) and one SJR on the other side, it was some of the easiest CW I ever played... kind of a disappointment actually.

It wasn't until after the queues were re-merged that I lost a couple of drops back-to-back because I blew the drop calls

Oh, and the wait times sucked.

iLLcapitan, on 09 August 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

And as long as that's the situation, it's up to the players. Best matches lately were the scrimmages against MS, so reach out to other teams in your time zone and find a remote planet to drop against.

gg and ty for the drops guys. Always a fun time.

MischiefSC, on 09 August 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

How many matches does MS lose in a row before you start having people pack it in for the night though? Not calling MS out, just asking in the 'your unit' context. Every unit is the same. You have a bad run and people start to fade.

It really depends on the individual players, but, in my experience, people have shown quite a bit of resilience, or at least they did back when we were driving for Terra. I've been on groups that spent hours alternating between getting smashed by KCom and getting smashed by -BO-, gone back-to-back 3 times against NKVA for all losses, and even drew a mixed EmP/228/KCom hybrid that clearly shows that there is a deity running CW and that it has it out for MS

The only time I've ever seen an entire MS team drop from CW after a loss was because our DC pulled us "off the line" so we could run a few games in regular queue and drill the basics a bit. There were A LOT of new guys in that group, myself included, and we were not yet used to moving as one, rotating armor, etc., etc. We did maybe 7-8 drops in regular queue (including a loss to an EmP 7-man and a 228 12-man) and then went right back to it.

MischiefSC, on 09 August 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

The idea that defense is 'easier' is a myth. The moment your whole team is past their fear of being aggressive and taking risks that entirely reverses itself. Attack is easier because you always control initiative unless the defenders manage to steal it from you. You've got far more strategic options and you know you can always force a fight with the defenders.

Yes and no.

Yes, attackers do have a certain amount of initiative and can generally choose when and where to engage. On the other hand, attackers have to deal with the fact that they are up against a clock and have to complete an objective other than killing all defenders or even getting a kill lead on defenders, which limits the amount of time you can dedicate to trading and maneuvering the way you need to in order to more safely break through chokepoints.

Essentially, as an attacker, you have three approaches you can attempt:
1.) Murderball to get as much firepower and armor applying as much pressure on as narrow an area as possible.
2.) Split-push in order to set up an enfilade
3.) Mid- and long-range trading in order to try and soften up the defenders and get permakills on the board before a single, glorious push in the waning minutes of the match.

I suppose you could also count gen rushes, but i've only ever seen them work against good teams when the rushers got really, really lucky.

Either way, all these approaches carry significant risks and can be handily countered by aggressive defenders who correctly and quickly identify what's happening. The situation would be very different if we didn't have a match timer, but the clock is a cruel and uncaring master who demands absolute obedience.

MischiefSC, on 09 August 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

At this point though we've got this dedicated, significant pug population, especially in the IS, with bad habits developed for 18 months. We need the tools to really integrate them into the winning side of FW and everyone will have more fun.

This.

MischiefSC, on 09 August 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

How many units have all but given up because even if you're winning 85% of your matches there's pug teams losing 90% right behind you?

Pretty sure any good unit has had this experience at some point. I've lost track of the amount of times I've been in TS, putting up one "wipe-and-dunk" 5-minute win after the other, only to see the progress reversed by Ghost Drops and pugs losing Holds.

MischiefSC, on 09 August 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

We just need to be honest with the realities of what drives those mechanics so they can get fixed. IMO it's the lowest hanging fruit to resolve in FW; some minor queue changes, something like the 'red flag' concept put forward in town hall and Deathlikes idea of extra rewards for mixed unit/pug teams would go a long way toward that. A lot needs changed in FW to make it what it should be but those things could be done with deep benefits for even a shallow effort.

Yep, pretty much.

Edited by habu86, 09 August 2016 - 06:42 PM.

[MischiefSC]

habu86, on 09 August 2016 - 06:34 PM, said:

Yea, actually. Pug "farming" might be somewhat amusing for a drop or two at the most while you get warmed up, but a whole evening of that gets boring and, for some, even demoralizing.

Plus, you might not like to hear this, and I don't know if it's just my experience with MS or if others have it as well, but, outside of a (very) short list of other strong units, my W/L ratio against units is not very different from my W/L against pugs. I do like dropping against units though because it makes for more interesting games: I get to meet new people, see different strats, and, with any luck, we might even get a "series" started for the night.




Haven't had a chance to drop as much this summer due to work, travel, and other commitments, but my experience has been that, between the lack of a specific stated goal for MS during this Phase of CW, combined with the availability of a single attack planet, and the general slowdown we've seen, things have changed a lot.

Folks are a lot more eager to get drops anywhere they can and are a lot less likely to sit through ghost drops, even if the planet hasn't been secured, and will more eagerly run off to drop defense or just regular queue. Or at least that's been my experience, dropping mostly during late-NA, early-Oceanic.




That really depends. I don't know of every time you've dropped with us, but the period I remember, we were pushing really hard to get to Terra with Smoke Jag, so taking wedges was of paramount importance. If we're in a hurry, or if we're in a situation where we can no longer win on damage, or if the other team straight up moves WAY out of position, we will go for the objectives to try and secure the match win... I mean at the end of the day, we ARE playing to win, or at the very least maximize utility. Or is there a bonus payout for conforming to ritualistic gameplay formulas that I'm not aware of?



Okay, maybe I'm misreading the leaderboards, but we've got about twice as many defensive planetary wins as offensive planetary wins. We do drop defense, both individually and as groups. We do so quite a bit, in fact.




Really? I had a really different experience myself.

That whole week I didn't lose a single invasion drop (in any invasion game mode to boot), no matter who was on the other side. Maybe it was because people took it seriously, tightened up their game, and dropped all-meta all the time. Whatever it was, aside from exactly ONE match that had a good, large group (forget who, doh) and one SJR on the other side, it was some of the easiest CW I ever played... kind of a disappointment actually.

It wasn't until after the queues were re-merged that I lost a couple of drops back-to-back because I blew the drop calls

Oh, and the wait times sucked.



gg and ty for the drops guys. Always a fun time.



It really depends on the individual players, but, in my experience, people have shown quite a bit of resilience, or at least they did back when we were driving for Terra. I've been on groups that spent hours alternating between getting smashed by KCom and getting smashed by -BO-, gone back-to-back 3 times against NKVA for all losses, and even drew a mixed EmP/228/KCom hybrid that clearly shows that there is a deity running CW and that it has it out for MS

The only time I've ever seen an entire MS team drop from CW after a loss was because our DC pulled us "off the line" so we could run a few games in regular queue and drill the basics a bit. There were A LOT of new guys in that group, myself included, and we were not yet used to moving as one, rotating armor, etc., etc. We did maybe 7-8 drops in regular queue (including a loss to an EmP 7-man and a 228 12-man) and then went right back to it.




Yes and no.

Yes, attackers do have a certain amount of initiative and can generally choose when and where to engage. On the other hand, attackers have to deal with the fact that they are up against a clock and have to complete an objective other than killing all defenders or even getting a kill lead on defenders, which limits the amount of time you can dedicate to trading and maneuvering the way you need to in order to more safely break through chokepoints.

Essentially, as an attacker, you have three approaches you can attempt:
1.) Murderball to get as much firepower and armor applying as much pressure on as narrow an area as possible.
2.) Split-push in order to set up an enfilade
3.) Mid- and long-range trading in order to try and soften up the defenders and get permakills on the board before a single, glorious push in the waning minutes of the match.

I suppose you could also count gen rushes, but i've only ever seen them work against good teams when the rushers got really, really lucky.

Either way, all these approaches carry significant risks and can be handily countered by aggressive defenders who correctly and quickly identify what's happening. The situation would be very different if we didn't have a match timer, but the clock is a cruel and uncaring master who demands absolute obedience.



This.



Pretty sure any good unit has had this experience at some point. I've lost track of the amount of times I've been in TS, putting up one "wipe-and-dunk" 5-minute win after the other, only to see the progress reversed by Ghost Drops and pugs losing Holds.



Yep, pretty much.

MS is an odd example because it's a lot of people, who you drop with in MS is going to significantly change your experience. YMMV applies there more than most units. Not a criticism more an observation of population.

It's been some months since I dropped with MS and a significant change since then has been the reduction to only one attack queue. The leaderboard is misleading however as it's talking about 'tags', so 40 drops in the attack queue over the day driving it to 100% is 1 'win' in attack while 4 drops in defense queue against half-hearted attempts to get some matches on Euro/Oceanic equates to 1 defense 'win'. With the new changes you have more total defensive fronts to choose from and only 1 attack. I don't feel it's an unreasonable assessment to say that of the over 44k matches MS has played the majority are in the attack queue. Again, I would say most units (especially Clans) are the same.

The advantage of attack v defense comes down to initiative. Easier to get into position because the wave doesn't generally start until you do. It takes a very aggressive defending team to turn that dynamic around and that's far and away the minority on either side of the faction divide.

Going to reiterate here that the only reason I'm directing these questions at MS is you guys are the ones answering. This applies to every unit. Nothing clears a queue faster than a good team consistently winning on the other side. I watched CJF do contortions and struggle to pug-boss their loyalists to divert around Steiner when KCom switched and suddenly their win/loss declined. Not the only time I've seen it.

As an overall I think you'll find a more balanced unit v unit, pug v pug environment will grow pug queue and slow unit queue. That's okay, I think over time that'll right itself but in the short term I think most units will struggle with the tougher competition.

[Karl Marlow]

Lady Alexandra Cousland, on 09 August 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

I do to actually.
Don't know how the MWO community generally is but from experiencing other online games it's a save bet to turn off the enemy chat.

I turn it off most of the time. There is nothing the enemy team has to say that is worth my time and there is nothing I ever need to say to them.

[MischiefSC]

ThomasMarik, on 09 August 2016 - 07:32 PM, said:

I turn it off most of the time. There is nothing the enemy team has to say that is worth my time and there is nothing I ever need to say to them.

You say that but wait until you're charging through a gate with your fly open, some helpful soul on the other team tries to warn you to tuck it away and you didn't hear it because you had chat off.

Then you'll feel silly and have nobody else to blame.

Lesson here kids - have all chat on. It could keep you from unintentionally showing your junk to strangers. That's only okay if you're Anthony Weiner.

[Karl Marlow]

MischiefSC, on 09 August 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

You say that but wait until you're charging through a gate with your fly open, some helpful soul on the other team tries to warn you to tuck it away and you didn't hear it because you had chat off.

Then you'll feel silly and have nobody else to blame.

Lesson here kids - have all chat on. It could keep you from unintentionally showing your junk to strangers. That's only okay if you're Anthony Weiner.

That reminds me. When are we getting customs geometry? I want to put boobs on my mech to distract the enemy.