284 replies to this topic

[habu86]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

My Hellbringer has 7 ER Small Lasers, 2 SRM 6+A, 3 tons of ammo and 25 heat sinks. It has ECM and pulls 600+ damage games regularly simply because its a ninja.

My point exactly. We've got a viable alternative for whatever roles we might envision for the tempest already available for c-bills.

Edited by habu86, 10 March 2016 - 10:43 AM.

[Zerberus]

Moomtazz, on 10 March 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

It depends on hardpoints and quirks. The reason the TW can't be compared is that hardpoints are variable on omnimechs. But you do see people with Cheetahs who prefer to lose the ECM, so even there it is not always the 100% winner.

As far as battlemechs, look at what we already have. The only current ECM variants of IS Battlemechs that are the undisputed top variants are the Spider and Raven....

*cough* Atlas D-DC *cough*

[Triordinant]

Zerberus, on 10 March 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

Seriously, If there´s one thing this community can be flabbergastingly resistant to, it´s learning from history so as not to repeat it. We see this constantly in game balance discussions and game mode discussions, where things that were previously tried and failed miserably are once again being touted as the be-all end-all problem solvers, despite having caused more problems than they solved the last time we had them.

Sadly, the community is simply a microcosm of the world at large. If humans always learned from their mistakes we wouldn't be living in the kind of world we have now.

[Zerberus]

Triordinant, on 10 March 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Sadly, the community is simply a microcosm of the world at large. If humans always learned from their mistakes we wouldn't be living in the kind of world we have now.

Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct. *raises beer stein*

[TamCoan]

Prosperity Park, on 10 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

Both being delicious fruit served from the same basket.

However, since density is strong with you, I will rephrase. If a Thunderbolt/Stalker/Battlemaster/Blackjack/JagerMech Hero was released with ECM, then which Variant would be preferred by combatants?

Would depend on the hardpoints, quirks and config options. Let's take the atlas as an existing example:

The DDC is a solid ECM mech. however I see more, and personally run the S variant. It has better hard-points, quirks and is an awesome brawler. While the DDC is good with the ECM, it doesn't invalidate the other variants as being solid choices.

[Moomtazz]

Zerberus, on 10 March 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

*cough* Atlas D-DC *cough*

The S variant is often preferred for a bigger punch.

[Sader325]

habu86, on 10 March 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

My point exactly. We've got a viable alternative for whatever roles we might envision for the tempest already available for c-bills.

CW

[Triordinant]

Zerberus, on 10 March 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct. *raises beer stein*

As you can see, most people in this thread are nitpicking the little things and completely missing the big picture.

[Grimlox]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d61663375bcfdd3

This is off the top of my head. I know I didn't leave tonnage on the table. I can't login so I don't know the build exactly.

The archer can do something very similar to this, and it can do it with ECM.



My Hellbringer has 7 ER Small Lasers, 2 SRM 6+A, 3 tons of ammo and 25 heat sinks. It has ECM and pulls 600+ damage games regularly simply because its a ninja.

Wasn't expecting the XL, that makes more sense.

Maybe check out your actual dmg/game in your stats for the WHM7-S MDD brawler and the HBR you mentioned above it might give you an idea if you will be pulling much better numbers due to the ECM if your HBR is averaging more. Still might not translate to the Tempest due to hitboxes but it might give you some clues.

My TBR brawler (obviously without ECM) is averaging 523 dmg/game. Sadly I have no HBR brawler to compare it to so I could see if ECM might be a contributing factor to better #'s. I will try my tempest in brawler form before anything else to see how much that ECM makes a difference.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Grimlox, on 10 March 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

Wasn't expecting the XL, that makes more sense.

Maybe check out your actual dmg/game in your stats for the WHM7-S MDD brawler and the HBR you mentioned above it might give you an idea if you will be pulling much better numbers due to the ECM if your HBR is averaging more. Still might not translate to the Tempest due to hitboxes but it might give you some clues.

My TBR brawler (obviously without ECM) is averaging 523 dmg/game. Sadly I have no HBR brawler to compare it to so I could see if ECM might be a contributing factor to better #'s. I will try my tempest in brawler form before anything else to see how much that ECM makes a difference.

Those Mechs have a big weight difference; they are not directly comparable. A Timberwolf with ECM would murder a Hellbringer with ECM.

[habu86]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

CW

Where IS does not currently have a direct equivalent, so Tempests showing up will represent an incremental improvement in IS's capabilities. Clans, in the meantime already have HBRs.

So I really don't see how the Tempest will be either detrimental or imbalanced.

[Zerberus]

Moomtazz, on 10 March 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

The S variant is often preferred for a bigger punch.

Good point, for some reason I regularly forget that one even though own the (L) version myself.... I would say it´s definitely debateable which is actually superior, the S has a bit more firepower, but the D-DC just suddenly pops up behind you with one or 2 buddies and steals your lunch money and girlfriend.

Edited by Zerberus, 10 March 2016 - 11:29 AM.

[Sader325]

Grimlox, on 10 March 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

Wasn't expecting the XL, that makes more sense.

Maybe check out your actual dmg/game in your stats for the WHM7-S MDD brawler and the HBR you mentioned above it might give you an idea if you will be pulling much better numbers due to the ECM if your HBR is averaging more. Still might not translate to the Tempest due to hitboxes but it might give you some clues.

My TBR brawler (obviously without ECM) is averaging 523 dmg/game. Sadly I have no HBR brawler to compare it to so I could see if ECM might be a contributing factor to better #'s. I will try my tempest in brawler form before anything else to see how much that ECM makes a difference.

TBR - 405 based on 663 games

MDD - 394 based on 684 games

HBR - 405 based on 126 games

WHM 7S - 463 based on 23 games


All these mechs are played "Rambo brawler", meaning I completely lone wolf and do not stay with the team. I am constantly searching for targets of opportunity.

[Grimlox]

Prosperity Park, on 10 March 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Those Mechs have a big weight difference; they are not directly comparable. A Timberwolf with ECM would murder a Hellbringer with ECM.

I'm not so sure a Tempest with ECM would murder the Hellbringer with ECM though. Also really hard to compare IS and Clan in those respects.

You think the Tempest because it has ECM will outbrawl the MAD or WHM? I only have the MAD and only one is setup for mixed brawlish (Largepulse, mlas, and SRM's) and it does 460 dmg per match avg. I doubt the Tempest will be doing any better on account of my assumption of hitboxes but I could be wrong.

[Sader325]

habu86, on 10 March 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Where IS does not currently have a direct equivalent, so Tempests showing up will represent an incremental improvement in IS's capabilities. Clans, in the meantime already have HBRs.

So I really don't see how the Tempest will be either detrimental or imbalanced.

A capable ECM heavy with the potential for clanspeed and fairly decent hardpoints is not an "incremental" improvement. It's a massive improvement and would be a goto mech if it wasn't behind a paywall.

Thats the problem: It's behind a paywall. IS Needs an equivalent that doesn't suck as bad as the cataphract or this mech is P2W.

[Arctourus]

Anyone got a new stick? The one we've been beating this dead horse with has broken....

[Grimlox]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

TBR - 405 based on 663 games

MDD - 394 based on 684 games

HBR - 405 based on 126 games

WHM 7S - 463 based on 23 games


All these mechs are played "Rambo brawler", meaning I completely lone wolf and do not stay with the team. I am constantly searching for targets of opportunity.

That WHM seems to be doing really well indeed (especially for tier 1). I would be interested to see if the Tempest can top that. I don't have the WHM but my MAD midrange/brawlish mech does 460 per match with 2 large pulse, 2 mlas, and 2srm4's (I think not at my gaming PC). Maybe I will try the same build on my Tempest and see how it compares... your WHM build looks fun though.

[Lucian Nostra]

Triordinant, on 10 March 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

If Heroes are the ONLY variants of their chassis with ECM, then Yes. It doesn't matter how many 'mechs there are total. It's how many are the ONLY variants of their chassis that have ECM. Don't count the Pirate's Bane. There was no issue until the Tempest. The question is will the Tempest be the last example of a Hero being the only variant with ECM? Or is it the start of a P2W trend? We'll have to wait and see...

So it doesn't matter how many mechs get released once we hit 3-5 heroes with ECM while the base variant doesnt mwo suddenly becomes p2w? Yeah not buying especially when you right away discard the locust which fits your criteria

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 10 March 2016 - 11:44 AM.

[Sader325]

Grimlox, on 10 March 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

That WHM seems to be doing really well indeed (especially for tier 1). I would be interested to see if the Tempest can top that. I don't have the WHM but my MAD midrange/brawlish mech does 460 per match with 2 large pulse, 2 mlas, and 2srm4's (I think not at my gaming PC). Maybe I will try the same build on my Tempest and see how it compares... your WHM build looks fun though.

Since you mentioned a MAD:

2SRM 6+A 1 Large Pulse 4 Med Pulse xl350 Marauder with 2 jump jets

424 damage over 160 games.

Same playstyle much rambo.

[Grimlox]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

A capable ECM heavy with the potential for clanspeed and fairly decent hardpoints is not an "incremental" improvement. It's a massive improvement and would be a goto mech if it wasn't behind a paywall.

Thats the problem: It's behind a paywall. IS Needs an equivalent that doesn't suck as bad as the cataphract or this mech is P2W.

I think if the Tempest can run XL's successfully in close quarters brawling then it could indeed be the goto mech as you say. Could be balanced depending on quirks. Would you trade all the quirks on the WHM 7S in for the ECM (plus loss of 1.5 tons HS/armour) on the Tempest? ECM would help you close the gap, but once inside 300m all those WHM quirks mean way more than ECM within brawl range. Of course this is all assumptions until we know the quirks on the tempest.