284 replies to this topic

[Sader325]

Grimlox, on 10 March 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

I think if the Tempest can run XL's successfully in close quarters brawling then it could indeed be the goto mech as you say. Could be balanced depending on quirks. Would you trade all the quirks on the WHM 7S in for the ECM (plus loss of 1.5 tons HS/armour) on the Tempest? ECM would help you close the gap, but once inside 300m all those WHM quirks mean way more than ECM within brawl range. Of course this is all assumptions until we know the quirks on the tempest.

SRMs are so powerful, they don't need quirks. If you lean on your SRMS (2x SRM6A+ 1 SRM4+A) or possibly (2SRM 6+A and 6 medium pulses) even with unquirked medium pulse lasers you should have very little problem putting a mech down.

The 6x SRM6+A capable archer doesnt need any weapon quirks at ALL, because its already has more damage than a maddog.

Structure quirks will decide whether or not this mech will survive or not, all it needs is structure quirks relative to the WHM / MAD and it will be fine.

However: If it gets the shaft like the rifleman? I retract all previous statements.

Edited by Sader325, 10 March 2016 - 11:49 AM.

[Zerberus]

I personally don´t think XLs will be a good idea, the ST hiitboxes will likely be maddog sized and nigh impossible to miss.... Will also take away valuable critical space that will likely be sorely missed when trying to fill the racks....

It Is of course speculation until we find out next week...

[habu86]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

A capable ECM heavy with the potential for clanspeed and fairly decent hardpoints is not an "incremental" improvement. It's a massive improvement and would be a goto mech if it wasn't behind a paywall.

Thats the problem: It's behind a paywall. IS Needs an equivalent that doesn't suck as bad as the cataphract or this mech is P2W.

Do you really see it completely displacing GHRs and BKTs? Because that's what it would be competing for tonnage with.

I mean, it looks quite strong on paper, but I'll wait to see how it works on quirks and hitboxes before declaring it the next god-tier mech. Because, right now, it just looks like a capable 70-tonner among many.

[Grimlox]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

SRMs are so powerful, they don't need quirks. If you lean on your SRMS (2x SRM6A+ 1 SRM4+A) even with unquirked medium pulse lasers you should have very little problem putting a mech down.

The 6x SRM6+A capable archer doesnt need any weapon quirks at ALL, because its already has more damage than a maddog.

Structure quirks will decide whether or not this mech will survive or not, all it needs is structure quirks relative to the WHM / MAD and it will be fine.

However: If it gets the shaft like the rifleman? I retract all previous statements.

I agree. The accel/decel/turn rate are nice to haves especially to spread dmg and brawl and so are heat reduction but ya really that structure makes a huge difference.

Zerberus, on 10 March 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

I personally don´t think XLs will be a good idea, the ST hiitboxes will likely be maddog sized and nigh impossible to miss.... Will also take away valuable critical space that will likely be sorely missed when trying to fill the racks....

It Is of course speculation until we find out next week...

Ya I am hesitant to think XL's are a good idea as well. As you say... time will tell.

[STEF_]

habu86, on 10 March 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

My point exactly. We've got a viable alternative for whatever roles we might envision for the tempest already available for c-bills.

Tbh, I'm waiting for its hitboxes and quirks.
If they are good enough I could buy it.
Those builts posted by Sader are going to be outclassed by the Tempest, whm because of ecm, hbr because of its fixed stuff.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...21c866b64b5b76d (far less alpha)

Look at this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...791d73b969b39e5
It's Tempest, just switch that srm4 into CT, and replace 1,5 gauss ammo with ECM.
I think it's the best of the three.

[Yankee77]

Zerberus, on 10 March 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

*cough* Atlas D-DC *cough*

One must never underestimate the Spooky Atlas.

[Triordinant]

Lucian Nostra, on 10 March 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

So it doesn't matter how many mechs get released once we hit 3-5 heroes with ECM while the base variant doesnt mwo suddenly becomes p2w? Yeah not buying especially when you right away discard the locust which fits your criteria

If you still don't understand I can't help you.

[Damia Savon]

Stefka Kerensky, on 10 March 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

Yea, maybe, BUT among the missile boat classTempest is going to be the best. So.....

Don't run many missile boats do you..

[Damia Savon]

Triordinant, on 10 March 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

If Heroes are the ONLY variants of their chassis with ECM, then Yes. It doesn't matter how many 'mechs there are total. It's how many are the ONLY variants of their chassis that have ECM. Don't count the Pirate's Bane. There was no issue until the Tempest. The question is will the Tempest be the last example of a Hero being the only variant with ECM? Or is it the start of a P2W trend? We'll have to wait and see...

I really don't think you grasp "pay to win". It doesn't matter if there are a dozen chasis where the hero is the only one with ECM. What matters is 1. How effective is ECM, 2. Quirks, 3. Hard point types, 4. Hard point locations, 5. Hitboxes, and 6. Engine cap. ECM on a garbage mech doesn't make that mech P2W.

[Moomtazz]

Stefka Kerensky, on 10 March 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

Look at this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...791d73b969b39e5
It's Tempest, just switch that srm4 into CT, and replace 1,5 gauss ammo with ECM.
I think it's the best of the three.

The CT will only have 2 slots though, right? So the Tempest can't have the same loadout. It would have to lose the SRM4 or 2 lasers. Of course that build is at 28% heat, so it might be best to drop a weapon or two anyway.

[STEF_]

Damia Savon, on 10 March 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Don't run many missile boats do you..

You don't have hbk-4J or TBT-7M, do you?
You don't know its quirks yet.

[Triordinant]

Damia Savon, on 10 March 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

I really don't think you grasp "pay to win". It doesn't matter if there are a dozen chasis where the hero is the only one with ECM. What matters is 1. How effective is ECM, 2. Quirks, 3. Hard point types, 4. Hard point locations, 5. Hitboxes, and 6. Engine cap. ECM on a garbage mech doesn't make that mech P2W.

Again with the small picture. This guy took the time to explain the big picture:

http://mwomercs.com/...76#entry5070276

[Damia Savon]

Zerberus, on 10 March 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

Are we even discussing the the same thing? Are you sure? Maybe read it again...

Because my post has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the terribad´s P2W whining or heros being OP, or some other fictional boogeyman, those ideas are not even floated. I have no idea what depth of your subconscious you pulled that from, but it definitely wasn´t my post.

However, it does have EVERYTHING to do with the community regularly saying "Oh, it´s only one little thing , it will be OK" and then seeing exactly these threads pop up 6-12 months later criticising the exact same thing now being done multiple times.

Despite numerous precedents showing that that is exactly what will happen, as well as explicit warnings from members of the community that have been here long enough to see history repeat itself multiple times, and actually learn from that.

"Accept it once, accept it forever" is the basic modus operandi around here. And that is exactly and entirely why some things, like hero mechs w/ ECM as the only variant, or changes to basic BT build rules (10 HS min, crit sizes and tonnages) should not be (or have been) accepted by the community even once. Becasue they eventually all snowball into a Pandora´s Box. That´s just the way it´s worked around here since 2011, whether people believe it or not. Belief has no bearing on verifiable facts.

But what do I know, I´ve only been here since closed beta, so I never saw PGI actually make any of those changes, much less follow the discussions and watch exactly what myself and numerous others warned of unfold time and time and time again.

Seriously, If there´s one thing this community can be flabbergastingly resistant to, it´s learning from history so as not to repeat it. We see this constantly in game balance discussions and game mode discussions, where things that were previously tried and failed miserably are once again being touted as the be-all end-all problem solvers, despite having caused more problems than they solved the last time we had them.

Yea, I know exactly what you are saying. Did you read the OP? Are you sure you are posting on the right thread? The bit ching is about ECM on hero mech and it being p2w. You said the community should have screamed bloody murder over it when the PB was released and forced PGI to change it lest it snowball into total p2w. In the 18 months since then only one other hero has ecm. Hardly a trend nor is the sky falling. In fact the phx has two standard variety with ecm and one with masc. Omg should hero's have both?

Ecm effectiveness changes based on balance issues. 3rd person view, consumables, minimum heat sinks are very different animals.

[STEF_]

Moomtazz, on 10 March 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

The CT will only have 2 slots though, right? So the Tempest can't have the same loadout. It would have to lose the SRM4 or 2 lasers. Of course that build is at 28% heat, so it might be best to drop a weapon or two anyway.

Gotcha, so I think I'll go with this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0034772536251d4

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 10 March 2016 - 12:30 PM.

[Zerberus]

Damia Savon, on 10 March 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

...In the 18 months since then only one other hero has ecm. Hardly a trend nor is the sky falling.

Hardly a trend, eh?

Let´s see.... 3 years without, then we get one, and now the second less than 2 years later, (1,5 to be exact , which is half of 3 for thoise that are already having problems ).

Do I need to draw a simple graph so that you can visually see that that is already exponential growth, and if kept at the same rate will skyrocket, just like it has with almost every other "Oh, it´s only one, it won´t matter" issue since 2011? Or do you understand basic mathematics and statistics, and can therefore deduce that in the time since the Pirate´s Bane was released the rate of hero mechs w/ecm as the only variant has already doubled?

When does it become too much? In December 2016 when the next one is released? Or April 2017 when the next one comes? or June 2017 after that? Or does it really have to become an every month thing before it finally gets taken seriously?

"BUT WAAAAH!!! We didn´t have ecm when we started, your math sux!!"... CORRECT. But If we take the introduction of ECM as our starting point, it is still a 66% increase in release rate (a Factor of 1.66 for thoise that don´t understand percentages). That is also exponential growth, just minimally slower....

SO everything get´s moved back 2-3 months at the start, but the trend still remains and by late 2017 we will still be able to expect an ECM Hero 1x /month. The pitiful few months that argument buys are practically irrelevant at that growth rate.

Quote

In fact the phx has two standard variety with ecm and one with masc. Omg should hero's have both?

You are now being intentionally obtuse and twisting the argument on it´s head in a pitiful and failed effort to portray my position as the exact opposite of what it actually is. This does not even warrant a response beyond diverse forms of ridicule based on your absolute failure to compose a logical counterargument to mine.

Quote

Ecm effectiveness changes based on balance issues. 3rd person view, consumables, minimum heat sinks are very different animals.

This impacts much less changes absolutely nothing about anything I´ve said...You`re still futilely arguing game balance as if that somehow nullifies the language of mathematics, which are the only universal truth known to man. 1+1 will always = 2, and no amount of "this can be balanced, that can be fixed" hullabaloo can or will ever change that.

Im done arguing this with you.... I´ll chime in again in December when the next one comes and time once agian proves me right

Edited by Zerberus, 10 March 2016 - 01:26 PM.

[Sader325]

Stefka Kerensky, on 10 March 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

Gotcha, so I think I'll go with this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0034772536251d4

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...89a71bc44876abd

Are you all afraid yet?

[Jables McBarty]

Prosperity Park, on 16 December 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

I don't like how we have more Mechs coming out where the Hero is the only version that has ECM. I think many of us will agree that ECM is still worth more than 1.5 tons, so giving only the Heo Mech ECM without assigning any significant drawbacks makes me unsettled.

I think that Mech chassis that offer an ECM Hero should also offer a ECM Standard Variant. So, instead of just the Archer Tempest getting ECM, one of the standard variants should also get ECM.

Do others feel this way, too?

Welp, let's take a look at the numbers. Counting only the IS chassis that have ECM:

LCT: ECM only on PB
COM: ECM only on 2D (not on DK)
SDR: ECM only on 5D (not on AN)
RVN: ECM only on 3L (not on HG)
CDA: ECM only on 3M (not on X5)
PXH: ECM on 1B, 2, 3S (not on Roc or KK)
GRF: ECM only on 2N (not on Sparky)
CTF: ECM only on 0XP (not on IM)
ARC: ECM only on Tempest
AS7: ECM only on DDC (not on BH)

Looks like this trend is really only present in two Heroes: The Pirate's Bane and the Tempest. The other eight hero 'mechs in this dataset don't have ECM while another variant does. And then fully 22 IS chassis lack ECM in both the standard and the hero variants.

Honestly, it just feels like any other hardpoint that is unique to the hero variant.

There is also MASC. I can see that being more of a trend:

EXE (all variants)
SHC (all variants)
KDK: only on SB
WVR: only on 7D(L) special
PXH: only on 3S

The Spirit Bear will always be behind a paywall, and the WVR-7D(L) is a loyalty variant, but the PXH-3S the Clanners are all available for Cbills or eventually will be.

[Graugger]

$

[Mystere]

Zerberus, on 10 March 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Hardly a trend, eh?

Let´s see.... 3 years without, then we get one, and now the second less than 2 years later, (1,5 to be exact , which is half of 3 for thoise that are already having problems ).

Do I need to draw a simple graph so that you can visually see that that is already exponential growth, and if kept at the same rate will skyrocket, just like it has with almost every other "Oh, it´s only one, it won´t matter" issue since 2011? Or do you understand basic mathematics and statistics, and can therefore deduce that in the time since the Pirate´s Bane was released the rate of hero mechs w/ecm as the only variant has already doubled?

When does it become too much? In December 2016 when the next one is released? Or April 2017 when the next one comes? or June 2017 after that? Or does it really have to become an every month thing before it finally gets taken seriously?

"BUT WAAAAH!!! We didn´t have ecm when we started, your math sux!!"... CORRECT. But If we take the introduction of ECM as our starting point, it is still a 66% increase in release rate (a Factor of 1.66 for thoise that don´t understand percentages). That is also exponential growth, just minimally slower....

SO everything get´s moved back 2-3 months at the start, but the trend still remains and by late 2017 we will still be able to expect an ECM Hero 1x /month. The pitiful few months that argument buys are practically irrelevant at that growth rate.

You are now being intentionally obtuse and twisting the argument on it´s head in a pitiful and failed effort to portray my position as the exact opposite of what it actually is. This does not even warrant a response beyond diverse forms of ridicule based on your absolute failure to compose a logical counterargument to mine.

This impacts much less changes absolutely nothing about anything I´ve said...You`re still futilely arguing game balance as if that somehow nullifies the language of mathematics, which are the only universal truth known to man. 1+1 will always = 2, and no amount of "this can be balanced, that can be fixed" hullabaloo can or will ever change that.

Ahem! I think this the best time to butt in and say that some people here are way over-analyzing things. <vsmhia*>

In your specific case, I should mention that two data points does not a trend make.

A better analysis is determining any correlation between PGI being late in delivering/fixing things they promised and the frequency of them saying "Have another Mech pack!".


*<vsmhia - vigorously shaking my head in astonishment>

Edited by Mystere, 10 March 2016 - 01:34 PM.

[TheArisen]

This is stupid. There's plenty of free ECM capable mechs and just because the Tempest has ECM doesn't mean it'll be the best Archer. There's nothing to complain about.