551 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Satan n stuff, on 27 December 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Since when is this game one on one?

Isn't this a shining revelation of why the PUG queue is full of one-man armies?

[JC Daxion]

Sandpit, on 27 December 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

really?
AC2 was everywhere when they upped the RoF originally. IIRC the first time would have been about midway through OB. They had to be nerfed because the RoF made them the absolute best DPS weapon in the game.

LBX you got me, I can't recall an LBX popularity min/max period

Meta is nothing more than min/max on paper. That's it. That's why the meta shifts every time there's a balance change.

Yea.. I can't recall an LBX meta.. though i do think they have been better before.. But that will not stop me from loading up my Brand new Jag.. just to level it with LBX-10's... I'll bet, im not the lowest damage guy on the team.. well after i get the hang of um.. Besides it is kinda fun on my Cent D that i run from time to time..



AC2 meta.. yea that happened. was 2 summers ago i think.. Some time after the shadow hawk hit... My god those things were deadly sniping with 3X AC2.. or Jags.. or a few others.. It was the reason one of the reasons for ghost heat, and them getting jacked to almost the highest heat weapon in the game..

PPC and ERPPC meta was before that i think.... then of course we can't forget the PPC+ac5 meta... or LRMageddon summer.. Or Streak boat death!.. ohh that was a fun one... core a light in 2 alpha's.. or the even more deadly Streak Cat....


ahh how soon they forget.. or maybe they never saw it..

[Mystere]

Fen Tetsudo, on 27 December 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

But the hate is not about LRMers asking to hold locks. That's just an excuse.

Of course it's just an excuse. It always has been most of the time.

[Kraftwerkedup]

The AC2 thing was right around the time the Banshee was released I think. Thats the last time the Banshee has been Meta. (though its still amazing)

It had those 4 high mount AC2s...roflcopter. It was brutal. Right before ghost heat I think.

[Kraftwerkedup]

Sandpit, on 27 December 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

I think lurms right now are in a decent spot. THey might could use a little fine tuning, but they're pretty much on par with the other weapon systems in the game. They're great at dealing splash type damage at long distances, but you're not going to get a lot of kills at higher levels.

Lurms are more about support than actual fighting in a lot of cases. Using dumb fire techniques, cycling through targets quickly and launching streams of lurms to turn around a flanking lance, exposing locations by watching for AMS fire, etc. are all MUCH deeper and strategic uses for lurms than simply trying to get kills.

I think some of the min/max and meta players forget (actually I think most if not all of them forget), that their whole play style revolves around the easiest path to victory, not the only path.

With 2-3 decent lurm pilots you can essentially lock down an entire team and make big brawlers pay for pushing, make snipers keep their heads down, provide clearance for your allies to push, and perform a myriad of other strategic actions that result in very little damage but can essentially win a match.
Keeping that assault lance pinned down and unable to participate heavily in a firefight is far more effective to me than getting a kill and doing 500 + damage.

By keeping an entire lance occupied with my lone mech, I essentially create an 11v8 advantage for my team. That can be huge, especially if your pinning down big mechs and firepower.

As with anything in this game, there's a VERY deep strategy for just about every weapon, mech, build, role, etc. it's jsut that some seem to think that their personal limitations or "best" dictate the limitations or best for the entire game and community.

Im not disputing that happens, I just dont see it anymore. Since they dropped me into a bucket within a bucket with this whole PSR XP bar...2-3 LRM mechs is suicide.

No one will be out of ECM cover, everyone has derp, no one will waste 1.5 tons on bap, and most people stick with the ball through thick and thin.

Splash damage only works if mechs survive more than a few seconds. With 40,50,60 point alphas flying around, splash damage is woefully ineffective. Everyone can put 50 points of damage, exactly where they want.

At a certain point I just stopped seeing them, about the time IGP fell apart. Even less so now with the whole PSR debacle. Brawlers in my games run TOWARDs the LRM mechs. You hear it get called out on comms "Lurmawesome G6" and then watch the guy get mauled by Cicadas and Arctic Cheetahs.

Its rare when it happens, but when it does...I always feel bad for that guy.

Its like when people nascar, and that poor assault gets legged because he cant keep up with his nascaring team and your fasties are over taking their slowies.

Man you should have played the voting mini game to make sure your Direwolf doesnt end up on Caustic heh.

Everything you said was true doing the last LRMaggeddon, two summers ago or so...I remember that well lol.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 27 December 2015 - 02:11 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Kraftwerkedup, on 27 December 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

Well thats my point to alot of the LRM crowd who asks for locks.

When LRMs are back...you wont have to ask, theyll be there, because its LRMaggedon season. When its not LRMaggedon, put them back in your tool box.

It comes and goes. Its not time right now. It may be again in the future, but LRM boats are currently swimming upstream. No one is going to help you do that, especially at any risk to themselves.

Kraftwerkedup hereby disqualifies himself from ever being tired of seeing the same builds every single match for months at a time.

[Kraftwerkedup]

I did get NARC'd once over this weekend.

Then stood there on Frozen City waiting for LRMs that never came lol. I felt so bad for that Raven. What a bummer for him.

I didnt even know they finally put in a HUD signal for being NARCd till it happened. Had to look it up, its been a couple months.

Satan n stuff, on 27 December 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

Kraftwerkedup hereby disqualifies himself from ever being tired of seeing the same builds every single match for months at a time.

Yeah I dont care about that at all.

Infact I dont want to see Vindicators, Enforcers, Kintaros, Victors, Myst Lynxs, Badders, etc...it pains my heart.

Dropping in a match and seeing 3 ACHs immediately followed by a vindi, enforcer, the bad Cicada, 2 Victors and a Highlander...

I die a little on the inside.

That said, it would be neat if PGI could get its balancing act together and LRMs had a place, clan ACs had a place, flamers and MGs, etc. They just dont. Theyre always chasing their tail. I dont mind that as much as I mind people not realizing hey, some weapons are bad and you shouldnt take them unless youre goofing around.

No one who takes out a Flamer mech asks anyone to brawl with the enemy so they can Flamer them from safety.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 27 December 2015 - 02:27 PM.

[ZenFool]

Sandpit, on 27 December 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

easiest way to win you mean


for the same reason I've seen every one of those weapons involved in the meta at one time or another.
Do you think this is the first time in 3 years there's been a meta? This is the first time it's ever been energy weapons tho

I wasn't arguing that point

[Revis Volek]

Extremist Pain, on 26 December 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

MechWarrior is a team game. Im not sure where this belief that supporting your team is too much. For example, i was just asking for locks in a game and i was told to get my own locks. Im sorry if asking for a contribution is too much, but if you dont feel like being a member of the team, dont play a team based game. You think you can win this game without my help, go ahead and try. Ill enjoy watching you fail.

Get your own locks!!!



Just dont expect anything at all in the form of help and it makes the game much better.

[Foxwalker]

I occasionally run LRMs. I have stopped asking others to press the R key when I do, due to the vitriol comments I have seen.

The true is, so many players never hit the R key. After dying once I was observing other players just not doing it. I guess so many are popping up and plinking with their ER-LL from distance they don't even think to hit R when they can actually lock.

It is sad, as they are not just not giving the LRM mechs targets, but also not helping the rest of their team to alert them to enemy locations.

It is why so often you see that last guy or 2 be those Spider, Raven or Shadow Cats that sit way way back and plink away with Large lasers.... which everyone then has to chase around for 5 minutes.

[Sandpit]

Kraftwerkedup, on 27 December 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

Im not disputing that happens, I just dont see it anymore. Since they dropped me into a bucket within a bucket with this whole PSR XP bar...2-3 LRM mechs is suicide.

No one will be out of ECM cover, everyone has derp, no one will waste 1.5 tons on bap, and most people stick with the ball through thick and thin.

Splash damage only works if mechs survive more than a few seconds. With 40,50,60 point alphas flying around, splash damage is woefully ineffective. Everyone can put 50 points of damage, exactly where they want.

At a certain point I just stopped seeing them, about the time IGP fell apart. Even less so now with the whole PSR debacle. Brawlers in my games run TOWARDs the LRM mechs. You hear it get called out on comms "Lurmawesome G6" and then watch the guy get mauled by Cicadas and Arctic Cheetahs.

Its rare when it happens, but when it does...I always feel bad for that guy.

Its like when people nascar, and that poor assault gets legged because he cant keep up with his nascaring team and your fasties are over taking their slowies.

Man you should have played the voting mini game to make sure your Direwolf doesnt end up on Caustic heh.

Everything you said was true doing the last LRMaggeddon, two summers ago or so...I remember that well lol.

Agreed but I think this type of thing starts with the players.
I DO spend the tonnage for BAP on several of my mechs, and ams, and ecm, ,know where cover is on maps, how to avoid detection and/or how to avoid lurms already launched.

I take advantage of teammates with ECM and AMS when we're getting lurmed, I spread my ams and ecm coverage around when I have it and notify my team of my location if they need it.

There are plenty of ways to counter lurms (especially since there are true hard counters to it) that is really what helps balance them. They're the easiest weapon to avoid, they're the easiest weapon to counter, and they're the easiest weapon system to nullify simpyl by getting under min range.

The true lurmageddon that I remember was right after one of PGI's "great" balancing passes that resulted in lurms hitting just about nothing but your head and in such small groupings they were practically AC damage with all hitting a small grouping, along with srms also IIRC. That was horrible, but it didn't last all that long.

The "lurmageddons" we get based on what I've seen, is more lurms spending so much time being an irrelevant weapon, that people forget how to counter them and in order to be practical in your counters to them a lot of time it disrupts those "meta" builds which is what really causes the ruckus anytime lurms are buffed.

Being indirect fire doesn't upset "balance" for the game, not for shooters. It's a tactic that has a lot of strategy and depth to it just like any other part of the game and missiles are the ONLY weapon system in the game that has a hard counter to it in the form of ECM.

[Kjudoon]

Ultimatum X, on 27 December 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

If they were fire and forget, but with no ability for indirect fire, I would actually like them.

So you want 1000m slow streaks?

[Johny Rocket]

MercJ, on 27 December 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

> Complains about lack of teamplay
> Brings a LRM boat

...

You may not understand why this doesn't add up. It's clear you don't, otherwise you wouldn't have said it I suppose.

Others have probably said it better, so I'll just leave this here: There was a match between some of the top players in MWO - one team brought LRMs, the other Meta (direct fire). LRM team got wrecked. These are good players, by the way.

You can find some of the matches here in Col O'Neill's playlist: https://www.youtube....B5y5I8KQuTvfyVq

Or search "LRMs vs the Meta", or check out reddit.

Point is, LRMs need some help to be any sort of contribution to the team, but so far PGI has been unable to do so without toppling the balance at one tier or another. As for your point about teamplay? Sure, I'll get you some locks while I'm at the front hooking and jabbing with the enemy front line. Just please understand that, in most cases, the mech I've locked will be DEAD by the time your LRMs get there. I should compile a video of all the times we've targeted a mech, only to kill it in seconds and watch as a steady stream of LRMs come flying from way back and impact a smoking wreck.

"Team play". Hmm. Which team member made more of a contribution with that lock in that (common) situation?

Yeah the guy who lead the Lrm team had played for less than a month, it shows when he led his entire team out into the water on Crimson and let pokey meta mechs have the cover. They could have ran a few spammers in mediums and 1 fat barge, posted up a line 1500m from there with their backs to the wall in cover.

But forever this is going to be held up as gospel.

[Kjudoon]

Sandpit, on 27 December 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

easiest way to win you mean


for the same reason I've seen every one of those weapons involved in the meta at one time or another.
Do you think this is the first time in 3 years there's been a meta? This is the first time it's ever been energy weapons tho

Every game... heck EVERYTHING has a meta the instant it is created. It is the most efficient way to meet your goals. The question is how fast is it discovered.

Before WW2 everyone knew the battleship meta was it for naval warfare. Then came the Battle of Midway. Meta changed overnight as an entire enemy fleet was sunk without ships ever seeing each other. Welcome to the modern navy.

[Sandpit]

Kjudoon, on 27 December 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

Every game... heck EVERYTHING has a meta the instant it is created. It is the most efficient way to meet your goals. The question is how fast is it discovered.

Before WW2 everyone knew the battleship meta was it for naval warfare. Then came the Battle of Midway. Meta changed overnight as an entire enemy fleet was sunk without ships ever seeing each other. Welcome to the modern navy.

Agreed, that's how everything evolves in the world honestly.

We find the easiest way to do something and then others come along later and think "can I do it better?", which leads to new ways and easier ways which leads to a new "meta".

In MWO's case, any time a balance change is made, the min/max crowd hits the books and finds the "best" min/max builds. Those are the best min/max builds, not the best builds. There's a difference.

That's why I never pay much attention to the "meta", sometimes they're good ideas and foundations to use for an idea about building a mech, but nothing more to me.

I've always bucked the meta, I've always played what I think are "good" builds and I've always done better than average. When you get to upper tier and CW levels of play it's more about coordination and teamwork than specific builds. It's also about creating synergy with roles as opposed to specific meta builds. You see it all the time in CW.

In the pub drops, the tonnage restrictions are so tight that anything over about a 6man is severely out tonned, so the whole "premade boogeyman" thing holds even less water than before.

Point being, in my opinion anyhow, the meta is always in a constant state of flux due to the very nature of how the meta is calculated here. Dominant players aren't dominant because of a build, there's literally dozens if not hundreds of builds that post high damage and kill rates. They're dominant because they are very well coordinated and don't panic when things liek getting raked by a couple of MLs at 600 meters, or an LRM5 gets shot at them, or they're down on kill count , etc.

Playing with an organized (not militaristic or "mean") team is like night and day in terms of performance. You also have players playing very unselfishly as well. Sacrificing their mech to tie down enemy mechs, or acting as a shield for friendly mechs, pushing, charging, focusing targets, collapsing to a rally point instead of turning around and running like hell exposing your rear armor to enemy fire.

That right there? That's exactly why some teams and players are dominant. Not because of specific builds and/or metas

Simple things like always locking targets are second nature to players at those levels. There's never a discussion about "holding locks" because it's automatic. There's DAM sure not any players in those top levels complaining about having to lock targets. Instead they call out good solid locked targets so those lurms can rain on the enemy instead of "insert whatever silly argument you want here" for not locking, calling out targets, etc.

That's the true difference in the skill levels here.
TL;DR
Those who play as a team are top tier because they play as a team, not because of any "magical" metas or builds.

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 27 December 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

That's the true difference in the skill levels here.
TL;DR
Those who play as a team are top tier because they play as a team, not because of any "magical" metas or builds.

TLDR: Teamwork is OP =)


Sadly, people seem to find cutting their own ego back and actually working together with others to be terribly difficult, and would rather blame their problems on anything else.

[Kraftwerkedup]

Well its also because its an XP bar. If you play enough and arent the underhive, youll hit Tier 1 in less than 1,000 games. You can do it in less than 500 if youre consistently getting high match scores and always getting the maximum increase.

Teamplay is certainly OP though. A team full of coordinated guys with even reasonably decent mechs, and a couple LRM boats, will crush a bunch of unorganized guys who dont know what theyre doing in Metamechs.

Its just that a coordinated team of metamechs who know how to use them, will crush a team who brings LRM boats. Hence why theyre metamechs.

That said, there iirc, a lurmboat on the 2nd tier of metamechs, so its not like theyre completely and totally useless, they have a place, sometimes. Though as said, none of those guys running these things are gonna ask for locks.

They know how to position so that theyre always fed with locks. Everyone hits R, its about being in the right place to hit that target before it, or the guy targeting it, hides.

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 27 December 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

TLDR: Teamwork is OP =)


Sadly, people seem to find cutting their own ego back and actually working together with others to be terribly difficult, and would rather blame their problems on anything else.

That right there is the biggest "flaw" in most of the players I see. They want to play as a solo player and not as a team.

[Kjudoon]

Sandpit, on 27 December 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

That right there is the biggest "flaw" in most of the players I see. They want to play as a solo player and not as a team.

Don't worry, PvE will "cure" that problem. They'll be gone and well... we'll see what's left.

[Kraftwerkedup]

Depends, if its still better to farm in solo theyll be in solo, or at least CW for the mechbays.

PvE generally doesnt offer much in the way of rewards or compelling gameplay.

Playing as a solo player isnt always bad either. Theres a couple good ones out there. Its really all about positioning. If youre running around in a LL raven, you can pretty much do your own thing. Your thing is surgery on enemy mechs. Taking off arms, hitting backs. You dont need anyone for that, and if youre good at it, youre helping out your team if you can open up that Executioner arm or that Hunchy torso, before they even make it to the fight.

That really wont work in group play, but in the solo queue it can be helpful, especially if half the team chases you. I love when someone does that and im near a firing line with a good alpha or DPS mech. So many backs....so many backs....then its just a matter of herding cats over the rise or around the corner with your newly aquired numbers advantage.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 27 December 2015 - 04:35 PM.