551 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 27 December 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

Flat, fast trajectory. Lock on LoS, tag or narc only. If firing IDF wider spread.

How maneuverable I don't know. However you want lrms to be viable you need to make them directly competitive with DF in the same way pre-nerf gauss was competitive with lasers or buffed srms. Not the same but side by side competitive performance.

well that's almost exactly what I said as well so I think we're thinking along the same lines, I thought you meant completely do away with the entire locking mechanic and that, to me, WOULD make lurms completely useless. It only works for SRMs because they're very short range.

[Kjudoon]

For all those saying lrms should just be made into dumb fire ballistics please explain to me why we would need ANY missile weapons in the game then? Do you all understand the concept of "a distiction without a difference" philosophicL flaw?

[Vickinator]

Kjudoon, on 27 December 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

For all those saying lrms should just be made into dumb fire ballistics please explain to me why we would need ANY missile weapons in the game then? Do you all understand the concept of "a distiction without a difference" philosophicL flaw?

Is there a law where you learn to not post on the forums and maybe move up in the tiers so you can get better. You should follow that law.

[Wintersdark]

Rhent, on 27 December 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

If you don't respect LRM's, you aren't carrying AMS, ECM or Radar Dep, and I love players that do that.

I tend to carry Radar Derp, but not because of LRM's. I certainly don't carry AMS.

And how often do I die to LRM's, or take any relevant amount of damage? Virtually never. Every now and then, I'll do something stupid, but that happens to everything.

The thing is, I can have 99% protection from the very best LRM player in the game simply by playing reasonably smartly, as a non-comp T2 player. I have zero respect for LRM's, even though I use them myself. Unlike other weapons, as the target, whether or not LRM's are a threat to me is up to me, not the attacker.

That's why LRM's are garbage at higher levels of play. And they are. This isn't up for debate or interpretation, it's not a Cunning Ploy by the evil e-sports/comp crowd who simply hate IDF. They are simply garbage, atrociously bad weapons.

You certainly can bring all those defensive tools, and they too serve to reduce the impact of LRM's, but none are necessary if you have even a moderate grasp of how to play. That they exist and make LRM's even worse is just depressing.


Look, I want LRM's to be usable, I sincerely do. But the current paradigm, with them only being good for low to mid level play, it's just depressing. At higher levels of play, they're not just "sub-optimal but technically viable" (see: lots of weapons, like ERPPC's for exampel), they're almost completely wasted tonnage that will inflict virtually zero damage.


Their current implementation is simply broken, and desperately needs to be fixed. I don't pretend to know how to fix them, but I do believe that the fix is in relation to how IDF works. Not necessarily it's removal, but certainly it's reduction in strength.

LRM's are so effective at low end play because in the early phases of matches, players tend to move around out of cover, and aren't sufficiently close to LRM-suitable cover to get there in time. What happens is one mech gets spotted, and the whole team of noobs suddenly unleashes hell on that one poor sod. It allows a low-tier pug team to do what high tier teams do: focus fire. Not via skill, but rather because he's the only dorito around, and he's not going to be in cover any time soon. He's just going to die.

That's certainly a L2P issue, as a player who moves from cover to cover - or at least proximity to it - need not fear that happening. However, you can't just ignore those T5 "crybabies" when LRM's dominate their matches, because they're not going to take the time to learn, they're just going to assume the game is totally broken and LRM's are grossly OP.

This needs to be fixed. LRM's need to be worse for unschooled nooblets, and better for players who know what they're doing.

As I've said twice already, it can't be via stat changes.

It also can't be via hard or soft counters (such as ECM, AMS, Radar Derp, etc) as these things make them simply more unreliable. At higher end play, weapons that may end up 100% unusable just because your opposing team elected to take a couple modules or drop 1.5t per mech to create a anti-missile shield are simply a bad investment.

That really leaves LRM IDF/DF flight mechanics. There's nothing else.




And Mystere, while I really respect your opinions, this is a case where you're meaning well but venturing into very dangerous territory:

Mystere, on 27 December 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

Which is why a clear line should separate the lore from the eSports side of MWO. We get our lore, they get their generic robot shooter. The latter can waive their epeens all they want via their 3-lance Clan companies (Yuck! Yuck! Yuck!).

I wonder though if PGI has the intestinal fortitude to do such a thing.

You should know well that trying to do that would be totally suicidal for MWO. There are barely enough players for matchmaking as things stand, fracturing the playerbase more - and this would essentially double the number of buckets of players - would totally destroy any sort of matchmaking for everyone.

So, no, PGI doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to do such a thing, because it would be (from a purely business standpoint) suicide. Hell, they weren't even willing to give us another game mode while we still hard hard game mode selection ability, because just adding one more bucket there would have impacted things too negatively.

[Kjudoon]

Also... To those saying buffing the most challenging weapon to use in the game will ruin new player experience explain bow it will be worse than the current pinpoint laservomit perfect convergence alphastrike meta currently wrecking it?

Let me show you what wrecks worse....

https://youtu.be/EH7zVBVk09g

Now compare that to lrm boat play just after the lrm 5 nerf.

MWO ForCol Pain Train Brawl: https://youtu.be/hfu51TspT-s

Now i like to think i am a solid pilot of lrms and laservomit. I prefer the playstyle of lrms because it is a slower pace game and involves more strategic thinking... But as you can see laservomit is currently king.

[Wintersdark]

Kjudoon, on 27 December 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

For all those saying lrms should just be made into dumb fire ballistics please explain to me why we would need ANY missile weapons in the game then? Do you all understand the concept of "a distiction without a difference" philosophicL flaw?

Nobody is saying that, quit it with the strawmans.

MischiefSC, on 27 December 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

Flat, fast trajectory. Lock on LoS, tag or narc only. If firing IDF wider spread.

How maneuverable I don't know. However you want lrms to be viable you need to make them directly competitive with DF in the same way pre-nerf gauss was competitive with lasers or buffed srms. Not the same but side by side competitive performance.

This isn't dumb-fire ballistic.

[Kjudoon]

Yes vickinator. Its called the peter principle where someone is promoted to the level of their incompetence.

I know how to play meta crap. I dont like it so i deliberately manage my psr and remain tier 4. Its been harder lately because lrms have been deservedly buffed and a lot of no fun tryhards have graduated to your ranks.

[Johny Rocket]

MischiefSC, on 27 December 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

If there was an advantage to be mined out of lrms people would do it. It's about reliably and consistency and that means max control of your results. Lrms are more dependent on the target than your own skill. That's what I mean about skill cap. I can hillhump, side poke, use bulk ams or ECM and nullify most if not all your firepower. Df however always works. In range? I hit if my aim and positioning is good. Trades are being better at this than the other guy.

I get the appeal of lrms. We all do. If you want them fixed though you need to be honest about them and how they work. Idf and locking weapons have the appeal of being easier to fire but the results of firing being dependent on the targets competency with mitigating locks and IDF trajectory.

Get off it already. We get it you don't like IDF weapons.

Top tier play has nothing to do with most players, Im not low tier and I still go to lrm5s for grinding because even playing a lot of tier 1 players I still do well or I wouldn't still be doing it. I don't care about about KDR or team rank I judge success by profit because I like to try new mechs and am always grinding.

Pokey laser meta is as boring as watching paint dry. This opinion I am far from alone in.

Every single thing you have to say about what lrm players do is based off what new players with no skill yet do. Most of those guys figure out they are doing it wrong. There are players all up thru the tiers that that can effectively use lrms as they exist right now. Which really isn't a bad place from where I stand, I don't want them to be the meta, I really prefer to be the only guy that has them. I get giddy if the other team doesn't, that's like Christmas because that's the only real counter to me unless you get lucky. I use my speed, I always carry a good DF punch, I use my map knowledge to hit you so I can fork your cover. I hunt empty triangles, Im always one of the 1st scouts to the front so I can control what is going on and collect the 2k a pop scouting bonus. I can stop an enemy push just from info being pumped to me and if you are unlucky enough that I can see you I'll wreck the guys trying to back up into their team. I will make you stop shooting my guys. I keep good situational awareness so i can react to the enemy quick enough to matter. I will dumb fire into your pack while Im switching locks just to cause havoc. I know every choke point and corner on every map. I know everywhere I can climb for the height advantage, 1 of my preferred spammers brings an ecm and JJ.

That's all with mediums which in my opinion are the only good boats, If im running lrms on a Fatty its to blind and scare you so I can shoot you at my leisure, its why I love my Mauler 1R, I basically paid $80 for 1 variant and the rest was just bonus.

The changes you suggest, many of us will abuse the hell out of that. Making them a faster direct fire weapon plays to what usually makes a good lurmer good with cannons and srms to, I can look at a target and know if I can hit him before he can make it to cover. I have the range info I just have to judge speed and angles. I can consistently smack running mechs with AC5 at 2km+, I do it because its a bit of a fun challenge and it messes with peoples heads and makes them have to change up. This is also why I consider lasers the easy mode crutch.

And you still want to let us have IDF just gimped? We're already running a weapon where a 30% hit rate is acceptable, can hear the build discussion now "chuck that heatsink for another ton of ammo". I also favor the tightest grouping launcher size, so this will effect me the least

[Wintersdark]

Kjudoon, on 27 December 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

Also... To those saying buffing the most challenging weapon to use in the game will ruin new player experience explain bow it will be worse than the current pinpoint laservomit perfect convergence alphastrike meta currently wrecking it?

Because LRM's are not challenging to use at new player levels. They are ridiculously, laughably easy to use there. That is, and always has been, the problem. Laser vomit doesn't matter nearly as much there, because everyone uses random builds at the best of times, aiming is a lost art, and overheating is common.

For new players, laser vomit spreads damage as much as LRM's do, and requires LOS and thus danger. LRM's can be fired from safety.

There's a reason there are and always have been countless new player/low-tier player complaints about how OP LRM's are, despite the fact that you NEVER see comp players using them, even when money is on the line.

Quote

Now i like to think i am a solid pilot of lrms and laservomit. I prefer the playstyle of lrms because it is a slower pace game and involves more strategic thinking... But as you can see laservomit is currently king.

Laser vomit is king because laser vomit is better. That sucks, but that's the truth.

Note that I'm not defending laser vomit. God, I'm sick of it and wish the meta would change. But PGI will not buff LRM's. The cries of the new Steamies will prevent that, as LRM's totally dominate their games.

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 27 December 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

well that's almost exactly what I said as well so I think we're thinking along the same lines, I thought you meant completely do away with the entire locking mechanic and that, to me, WOULD make lurms completely useless. It only works for SRMs because they're very short range.

SRMs need to travel at Ac10 speed, lrms need ac20 speed. If fired with no lock I'd say let lrms go Ac10 speed. Slower with locks but course correction.

I'm all for locks in that DF environment for lrms. It let's you aim at a target to hit with acs or lasers and still fire lrms at a slower speed, letting targets swing to spread damage or get to cover and mitigate the lock advantage. Also overall damage spread mitigates the df lock vs pinpoint accuracy.

As a balance mechanic I think it could work and make lrms a solid performer to mix with ballistics and lasers. Also speed up srms more and let people take infernos. There's some great balancing you can do with these concepts that would improve the field of weapons overall, new synergies and loadouts on chassis that don't boat all the same hardpoints.

If lrms are all idf they will never have synergy with anything and be boat only and a red step child in balance.

[Kilo 40]

MischiefSC, on 27 December 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

This is so incredibly disingenuous

oh sweet delicious irony

[MischiefSC]

@tractor Joe

I sorta went over all that in a post to sandpit. What you're missing is that currently with LRMs I can do all that as good or better with direct fire. The goal is to let lrms consistently do all that as well as acs or lasers.

At any Tier level. I'm not talking about comp tier meta play I'm talking most T2 or even t3. Currently lrms are flat out inferior to any df weapon, for reasons discussed prior.

The problem is df as a primary fire mode is bad. Not "evil" but a mechanic that is inherently binary (as in great or terrible, feast/famine) or if it's not clownshoes broken op.

You can't balance it to that.

So balance it to df and keep idf as a harassment secondary fire when someone is tagging/narcing them.

You'd get a good weapon that would be viable in a mixed loadout.

[YakkSlapper]

this is what happens, steam nabs all thinking point n click easy win button, hence my "poor tude' I saw it coming long before, and was told all kinds of "stfu' steam trash as is mentality, "no ones gonna ks me, this should be halo trash or cod, one shot kills no skill, no thinking beyond shoot 1st shoot often,/ only the cheap easiest trash play will be used, the mentality of the lowest 'common' denominator, is, "every man for self cause score is only thing that matters," or, "zerg mentality' if this was MTG those are the ones who cheapen the game with 'weenie rush decks' we ALL know the kind of trash posers they are, mechwarrior was never, and NEVER WILL BE a "mainstream game' unless they keep drumming it down and vannalising it like they have been doing a while now, guess quantity of players is more important then QUALITY of players,

i personally watch locks so KNOW ware the others are i cant see, and maneuver appropriately (when im not charging in and droping an ac 20 in the cocpit of opponents) andwhen i do use lrm's i totally,,,lock then fire as i snap my orientation around so then my lrms are arcing AROUND many obsticles,

"yes victoria, you CAN shoot around the corners without peeking out 1st"

Edited by YakkSlapper, 27 December 2015 - 09:37 PM.

[Vickinator]

Kjudoon, on 27 December 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

Yes vickinator. Its called the peter principle where someone is promoted to the level of their incompetence.

I know how to play meta crap. I dont like it so i deliberately manage my psr and remain tier 4. Its been harder lately because lrms have been deservedly buffed and a lot of no fun tryhards have graduated to your ranks.

manage your PSR. Dude you can call it whatever you want but your in tier 4 for a reason lol

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 27 December 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

Nobody is saying that, quit it with the strawmans.



This isn't dumb-fire ballistic.

I have to stick up for him here, I thought some of you were suggesting the exact same thing. It wasn't until Mischief explained it that I realized I misunderstood.

See...
Let me explain how this works, Mischief and I have been in this community for a quite a while now. We dont' agree on some things, but even when we do, we don't take to personal insults. (this isn't directed at you personally Dark)

We can ahve a discussion and a lot of times come up with new ideas that meld the best of multiple suggestions. If you're here to discuss MWO, personal insults really have no place. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't like your ideas, or just in general takes the exact opposite stance from you on a subject shouldn't be taken as some sort of personal attack.

Stop with the petty insults people. There's some good discussion to be had in this thread and if you can't mind your manners, you can go sit at the kiddy table in K Town instead. The adults are having a discussion

[Livewyr]

Prosperity Park, on 27 December 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

Typical self-centered reply.

"You're asking to work as part of a team; that means you want me to carry you. You obviously suck."

Sorry all you masters of all things Mech, but you obviously have no clue how to play LRMs. They can be used while the LRM carrier is still approaching the firing line. That's what shared locks are for.

While the "lob into walls" comment was unnecessary from that post, it's not incorrect.

To ask people to lock for you necessarily means that you will not be seeking locks for yourself, the only way that would be the case is if you were planning to refrain from exposing yourself.

(Refraining from exposing yourself is a selfish act in itself as refusing to be a target means that more focus is placed on the exposed players. There is no deflection in this game, so the only way to mitigate damage is to not receive it in the first place...the only way that happens is to have more available targets than just yourself.)

----------
If the player was simply using LRMs as they moved into the fight, asking for locks would be pointless as one may or may not get them, but the end result would be the same; moving into engagement.

Asking people to lock for you is adding a distraction for them, and if they oblige you, that also means they cannot take cover.


Getting your own locks is a perfectly reasonable expectation.
Using what locks you get from others' engagements is also acceptable, on the way to engaging yourself... (They are fighting as they normally would, and you can still engage, support, and profit.)

Asking others to take on more of a burden so that you can fire from safety is not a reasonable expectation.

[ChewBaka]

Sandpit, on 27 December 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

this is exactly he type of player(s) i'm talking about in my previous posts. GJ for you sir, I'm glad to know that now so I'll be sure to be on the lookout for scummy players like that.

Really? Scummy players? The team still won, didn't it? He still got his 50k from winning. What's his complaint? What's your complaint?

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 27 December 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

SRMs need to travel at Ac10 speed, lrms need ac20 speed. If fired with no lock I'd say let lrms go Ac10 speed. Slower with locks but course correction.

I'm all for locks in that DF environment for lrms. It let's you aim at a target to hit with acs or lasers and still fire lrms at a slower speed, letting targets swing to spread damage or get to cover and mitigate the lock advantage. Also overall damage spread mitigates the df lock vs pinpoint accuracy.

As a balance mechanic I think it could work and make lrms a solid performer to mix with ballistics and lasers. Also speed up srms more and let people take infernos. There's some great balancing you can do with these concepts that would improve the field of weapons overall, new synergies and loadouts on chassis that don't boat all the same hardpoints.

If lrms are all idf they will never have synergy with anything and be boat only and a red step child in balance.

If lurms traveled at AC20 speed they would be useless for the most part in my opinion. That is far to slow for a ballistic missile that gives the target instant warning to travel 1000 meters to hit the target.

If you think not, try hitting someone with an AC20 round at 1000 meters. It CAN be done, under perfect optimal conditions, that's not what should be the "norm" for lurms. Just far too slow in my opinion.

Put them on par with AC5-AC10 area (AC5 would be a bit too fast in me opinion)

I'm all for placing penalties on indirect firing, but everything else works and has worked fairly well for lurms as far as the firing and locking mechanics go.

Balance them through trajectory, speed, and grouping, that's their unique battlefield profile.

ChewBaka, on 27 December 2015 - 09:41 PM, said:

Really? Scummy players? The team still won, didn't it? He still got his 50k from winning. What's his complaint? What's your complaint?

yes
scummy
abandoning your teammate
scummy
slimy
wrong
poor teammate
douchey
****** material
I can keep going if you like, they all mean basically the same thing

It was scummy of you to just abandon one of your teammates like that and decide (without their knowledge or consent I might add) to use him as "bait"

Yay
you won
and ruined the game for another player.
S
C
U
M
M
Y

[ChewBaka]

Sandpit, on 27 December 2015 - 09:43 PM, said:

If lurms traveled at AC20 speed they would be useless for the most part in my opinion. That is far to slow for a ballistic missile that gives the target instant warning to travel 1000 meters to hit the target.

If you think not, try hitting someone with an AC20 round at 1000 meters. It CAN be done, under perfect optimal conditions, that's not what should be the "norm" for lurms. Just far too slow in my opinion.

Put them on par with AC5-AC10 area (AC5 would be a bit too fast in me opinion)

I'm all for placing penalties on indirect firing, but everything else works and has worked fairly well for lurms as far as the firing and locking mechanics go.

Balance them through trajectory, speed, and grouping, that's their unique battlefield profile.


yes
scummy
abandoning your teammate
scummy
slimy
wrong
poor teammate
douchey
****** material
I can keep going if you like, they all mean basically the same thing

It was scummy of you to just abandon one of your teammates like that and decide (without their knowledge or consent I might add) to use him as "bait"

Yay
you won
and ruined the game for another player.
S
C
U
M
M
Y

And that attitude won't get you any respect. Are you seriously saying you expect the entire team to adjust to YOUR specific playstyle, just because you like playing one sort of mech?

It was a spur of the moment decision, as it tends to be with PUGS. Someone saw the oppurtunity for a NASCAR and led the charge. The rest of us followed. Of course, this means the slow mech gets left behind. It was a valid strategy. It won the day.

The other team also attempted a NASCAR. It didn't work out so well for them.

NASCAR happens. You don't like it, don't play a fatlass LRM Atlas.

[Sandpit]

ChewBaka, on 27 December 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

And that attitude won't get you any respect. Are you seriously saying you expect the entire team to adjust to YOUR specific playstyle, just because you like playing one sort of mech?

It was a spur of the moment decision, as it tends to be with PUGS. Someone saw the oppurtunity for a NASCAR and led the charge. The rest of us followed. Of course, this means the slow mech gets left behind. It was a valid strategy. It won the day.

The other team also attempted a NASCAR. It didn't work out so well for them.

NASCAR happens. You don't like it, don't play a fatlass LRM Atlas.

I expect my TEAM to not abandon me, just like I don't for them
You can argue that I'm in the wrong here, but I'm willing to bet that any "respected" players are going to agree with me here.