137 replies to this topic

[C E Dwyer]

ExplicitContent, on 27 December 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

Glad you enjoyed it? Just my point of view. I play both sides in Solo queue regularly and that is just an altogether different beast. I was shocked at how easy it was to do well with a drop deck that I spent less than 5 minutes sorting out. Pug vs Pug I think IS has a distinct advantage. I do think that a lot of new players gravitate towards IS for their first CW and that tends to skew the picture of balance.

Do you play clan and IS? Would love to hear your input if you do.

My edit.. above..

[Bushmaster0]

Dimento Graven, on 27 December 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

A Clan XL doesn't blow up when you lose an ST.

Please show me the IS 'armor/internal structure' quirk that allows an IS 'mech to equip an XL, lose a side torso, and still be playing their 'mech.

Regardless of the range, Clan 'mechs STILL do MORE damage with their lighter and smaller weapons, and of course when it isn't one of the FEW IS 'mechs with a 25% range quirks the Clanner is fighting, the Clan energy weapon range quirk is better, and that's probably better than more than 90% of IS 'mechs.

See, if PGI had come out labeled the Clan weapon advantages as weapon specific quirks to begin with, the whole syntax of this argument would change.

The fact is, Clans have quirks, but they're just "built in" to the Clan tech. Besides that, checking Smuphy's, I find that a lot of Clan 'mechs have OTHER quirks, listed as such, including STRUCTURE QUIRKS.

So... Non-issue...

what clan mechs, other that the worst chassis, have structure quirks?
What clan mechs have structure quirks along the lines of the blackjack, giving it internal structure comparable to an assault?

[ZenFool]

This has simply coopted yesterday's thread stating the same thing, except in THAT thread the OP had far more experience in CW than this guy. I think the balance is as good as its been since clan mechs came out. I certainly wouldn't want to see a nerf to them until we get more data. The fact that the two sides can argue it with valid points and still can't reach a conclusion sounds like...Wait for it....Balance.

[ExplicitContent]

Cathy, on 27 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

My edit.. above..

Thanks for your input. I did acknowledge in the OP that there was a 4 man that did a good job with coordination and that played a role in the victory. I understand that teamwork is everything in CW and can actually overcome perceived imbalances. It's hard to say that the opposing team did not also have the same level of coordination, so we are kind of at an impasse as to whether that was the overwhelming determinant in this case.

The purpose of the OP was to bring my opinion, based upon my experience, that IS is easier to play than clan in CW. i was surprised at how quickly the clan mechs were dying. I have never had a CW match where I scored that many kills or that high of damage in my clan deck. I am sure it will be even better in the future as I optimize my IS deck.

I don't feel like most people want real balance and will use their biases for whatever they prefer to play. I am going to play whatever gives me the greatest advantage until real balance is achieved. So I will be rotating through the IS houses until some of the quirks and structure advantages get scaled back. From then though, we'll see. I have far more IS mechs than clans so it's in the air as to where I will be. Probably just being a Merc

[ExplicitContent]

ZenFool, on 27 December 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

This has simply coopted yesterday's thread stating the same thing, except in THAT thread the OP had far more experience in CW than this guy. I think the balance is as good as its been since clan mechs came out. I certainly wouldn't want to see a nerf to them until we get more data. The fact that the two sides can argue it with valid points and still can't reach a conclusion sounds like...Wait for it....Balance.

I didn't see a similar thread or else I would have posted on it. Can you link please? I like to see where people's heads are at. I really don't believe that people will stop arguing over the changes even if perfect balance is achieved. If one spent hundreds of dollars on one side or the other, there is a good chance one will be biased towards why they want, which in many cases I doubt is actual balance.

I can't do anything about my experience. Have never played with a group or been in a unit. Everything is based off of the pug side. I have no idea how many CW drops I have completed, but i think it's enough to have some valid perspective. My performance with a hastily assembled IS deck was superior than anything I have achieved in any clan drops (maybe 100?).

[Y E O N N E]

Honestly, apart from the range question where certain IS 'Mechs do have the absolute advantage, the only drawbacks to running Clan Tech are player-induced. You run hot? Well, if you weren't trying to bring 52+ points of alpha strike at 405+ meters all day every day, you might run a bit colder. I consider the Jester to be one of the most 1-for-1 comparable IS 'Mechs with Clans, outside of the Firestarter/ACH comparison. Do you know what my alpha is on a Jester with an XL 325, 4xLL, and 2x ML? 46 points. It runs about as hot as an EBJ doing the laser vomit thing, lacks 6 points in damage, and doesn't quite have the same reach for the full damage value. It also explodes on ST loss. I also don't have the option of combining lasers with Gauss or AC to improve sustain. If I bring a K2, and I try to replace two of those lasers with even a UAC/5, I'm running hot and slow and fragile.

Or how about brawling? You can't brawl with Clans? Start packing C-ERSL/C-SPL and C-SRMs instead of C-ERML and C-LPL. Three tons in C-ERSL are better at brawling than 14 tons of AC/20, and energy hard-points are something almost every Clan 'Mech has in spades. Missiles cost you very little in terms of tonnage to mount and, at brawling ranges, the spread doesn't hurt you much, if at all. C-UACs are pretty amazing at brawling, too. Brawling is all about team coordination. If you bring a brawler build and aren't in a coordinated environment, you are going to have a bad time - or at least a very inconsistent experience.

You can also draw the same conclusions comparing an HBR to a JM6. Or a MAD to a TBR. Or the KGC to the DWF. Or, dipping into uneven comparisons, even the TBR vs. the STK and the BJ vs. the SCR.

You can pick literally any IS 'Mech that can "match" the best Clan 'Mechs in both range and firepower for a weight class, and it will still have distinct disadvantages in durability and speed/agility with, at best, a similar heat profile. A lot of the IS 'Mechs that look like they have some very comparable hard-point and speed combinations and sufficient durability to overcome the lack of range and punch on the lighter weapons and the giant DHS (BLR-3M, BLR-1G, BJ-1X, BJ-1DC, etc.) have some of the most atrocious torso-twist characteristics in the entire game, some artificially induced and others just being a product of the chassis weight and the agility-engine relationship. Why is my Battlemaster arbitrarily stuck with a 60 degree yaw at a weight where most 'Mechs +/- 5 tons have 80 or 85? Do you know how much I wouldn't need structure buffs if I could actually turn the damn 'Mech?

Note, none of this means that there is a huge gap between Clan and IS as of this moment. Right now, player skill and team coordination are still larger factors than chassis or tech advantages, and that's exactly as it should be. The balance has never been better, and while it's still a patchwork of band-aids and poorly devised concepts, most of the complaining sounds like it's coming from people who are not used to their builds having increased competition. Time to re-evaluate your strategies and tactics, and to reconstruct your 'Mechs accordingly. And this isn't limited to CW. In regular matches, my STD MedLas BJ-1X didn't work the way I wanted it to anymore, so I changed it to Small Pulse. Totally different play style, but it now kicks arse again. When the CPLT hitbox changes first dropped, I stopped running an XL in them because an XL became unusable against players who can shoot straight. My Jester changed to a STD 300, 2xLPL, and 4x ML. Was awesome again. Then they tweaked the hit-boxes once more and it's back to running the XL build above.

Adapt. Overcome.

Finally, as a general request, quit using Boreal Vault as the measuring stick for tech-set performance. That map is terribly laid out and is only one out of six. The other five are superior in every conceivable way. Grim Portico is probably one of the best ones; it offers both long firing lanes and tight quarters, as well as everything in between, allowing just about any intelligently constructed 'Mech to do work without requiring extra-intense coordination to overcome its innate disadvantages.

[ZenFool]

That post would be in the CW section of the forum, still on first page so should be easy to find.

[Jman5]

Bushmaster0, on 27 December 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

what clan mechs, other that the worst chassis, have structure quirks?
What clan mechs have structure quirks along the lines of the blackjack, giving it internal structure comparable to an assault?

Nearly 1/3 of all Clan mechs have monster hitpoint quirks (+75-140). Everyone talks about IS quirks, but Clans get a sizable number of mega-quirked mechs. It makes talking about IS vs Clan balance difficult for me because you have such a major caveat.

I went through Clan mechs and here is what they can have in the major hitpoint quirk department. Keep in mind many of these mechs also have modest weapon and agility quirks, but I'll leave that for another discussion.

• Mist Lynx(25): +92 hitpoint quirks
  
• Kit Fox(30): +76 hitpoint quirks
  
• Adder (35): +76 hitpoint quirks
  
• Ice Ferret(45): +96 hitpoint quirks
  
• Nova(50): +140 hitpoint quirks
  
• Summoner(70): +89 hitpoint quirks
  
• Gargoyle(80): +110 hitpoint quirks
  
• Warhawk (85): +101 hitpoint quirks

Clans have choices if you're looking for beefy Clan mechs. If people refuse to use them because they aren't the perfect storm of upgrades and engines that's their prerogative. Personally, I've used some of these to great effect in CW.

[Lykaon]

ExplicitContent, on 27 December 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

I recently signed a contract with the IS side to see what the balance feels like from an IS perspective and to get some more mech bays from faction loyalty. In the past I have only dropped with Clan Ghost Bear and played with clan mechs. I did 2 drops last night, 1 was an IS PUG group vs an IS 12 man premade. This was a rollstomp, as can be expected.

The second, was an IS PUG vs Clan PUG. We had a 4 man in the group that did a good job with coordination, so there was an element of teamwork present that I do believe played some role in the victory. However, there were also some very very new players, and some that did not even really factor into the match.

I am amazed at how easily it feels like the clan mechs are dying. The IS added structure and quirks make the mechs more viable and with the 265 tonnage limit, I think it is too far leaning toward the IS side as far as balance is concerned. I dropped with a Top Dog, Firebrand, TDR-5SS and a Grasshopper 5h. I am decent, but not great. Just focused fire on EBJ nose cones and watched them pop.

Anyway, that's my unsolicited 2 cents. Playing IS is easier than playing clans in CW. Any talk of Clan being OP is a joke if you ask me.

From the flip side of the equation...

My merc corp just wrapped up a 2 week stint as clan Wolf.

And here is what I found to be generally the way things go.

Do not try to out range the I.S. mechs they have too many range quirks and have access to ER- Lrg Lasers with very long range capabilities.

Do not try to slug it out with an I.S. mech they run cooler from quirks and have structure buffing quirks allowing them to put out good numbers for damage (staying cooler longer) and have superior damage soaking potential from structure quirks.

Clans are better off brawling with LRM support and MUST use focus fire tactics to overcome I.S. structure quirking.

In my opinion many I.S. mechs are currently over quirked. While at the same time many clan mechs may be suffering from a double nerf effect (one nerf to the weapon stats and a second nerf to the chassis when those weapons are used on the chassis)

If I were to attempt balance I would probably remove all quirks from clan mechs (possitive and negative) I would reduce clan laser weapon durations to match the I.S. counterparts. Alter clan DHS to be 2.0 for all DHS engine and external values.

Next up most weapon quirks will be removed from I.S. mechs (with some specific underperformers retaining some generic weapon quirks ie. energy cooldown as opposed to medium laser cooldown.) All I.S. mech will have significant structure quirks and a few will be given armor quirks to compensate for hardpoint placement or poor geometry,

With these initial changes the balancing plan is to have clan mechs be more agile with excellent range potential yet being somewhat delicate while the I.S. mechs will be durable and able to soak large amounts of damage while closing to negate the clan range advantages.

As far as damage dealing profiles Clan mechs should be bursty with high initial damage output that builds heat quickly while the I.S. mechs should have excellent sustainability with damage output.

Just my two cents after playing just 2 weeks as clan Wolf.

[Moldur]

48-38 oh man what a landslide.

[Aresye]

El Bandito, on 27 December 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

Judging from the badges, you dropped with Norm Peterson, and Mask from the Rough Riders. Of course they can lead an IS pug team to victory against Clan pugs. The Rough Riders are actually very good group--I should know, since I am one of them.

Most Steam newbies can't even torso twist yet. And mechs such as the Timberwolf and Stormcrow requires twisting to stay tanky since they have good hitboxes to compensate for lack of structure quirks.

What would you say about this then?


Or this?


If you know DW, you should know they aren't exactly the kind of team that would struggle with pugs. I also know the Lord on the other side of the screen shot (Lucy Lui), is an absolutely fantastic player, and frequently plays with DW's comp team in MRBC, where they just so happened to be crowned the NA Division B champions about a month ago, beating teams such as: SwK, -42-, FotM, and SiG (my team).

I literally played against these same players competitively. I know their capabilities, and I know my own. I just got done with playing Clan as part of CWI for OVER a year. I've beaten my all-time highest damage/all-time highest kills within 3 days of switching to IS, and I easily held my own and carried my team (like it was nothing) against large groups from a unit that was the TOUGHEST competitive team in my own team's bracket.

Explain that please.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 27 December 2015 - 01:40 PM.

[ExplicitContent]

Moldur, on 27 December 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

48-38 oh man what a landslide.

Was more focused on my individual performance as I have not been able to attain that piloting my clan mechs.

[Dimento Graven]

Bushmaster0, on 27 December 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

what clan mechs, other that the worst chassis, have structure quirks?
What clan mechs have structure quirks along the lines of the blackjack, giving it internal structure comparable to an assault?

"Worst chassis" is a matter of opinion, AND, beyond that it sounds like you're mad because the 'BEST' Clan Chassis don't ALSO get quirks too...

Whoop-de-friggin'-do... Again, this is where I get dismissive and extremely sarcastic because the whole gist of this type of argument from the Clans is "ONE 'MECH" gets REALLY GOOD INTERNALS, and it's harder to kill than most other IS 'mechs, so IS is OP".

<sigh>

(Just focusing on the energy range quirks as that seems to be the primary '*****' from the Clans any time balance is brought up)
BJ-1 - 2 BAL, 4 Energy - Energy Range +25%
BJ-1DC - 2 BAL, 6 Energy - Energy Range +25%
BJ-1X - 8 Energy - Energy Range +10%
BJ-3 - 6 Energy - Energy Range +20%
BJ-A - 6 BAL, 3 Energy - Energy Range +20%

Load up weapon module "5" and get another 10%

Weapon - Base Range - Module 5 Increase + Quirk
SL - 270 + 27 + 67.5 = 364.5 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 360 (396 w/Level 5 module, 423 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage
ML - 540 + 54 + 135 = 729 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 688 (756.8 w/Level 5 module, 808.4 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage
LL - 900 + 90 + 225 = 1215 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 1480 (1628 w/Level 5 module, 1739 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage

ERLL - 1350 + 135 + 337.5 = 1822.5 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 1480 (1628 w/Level 5 module) - IS Range Advantage

SPL - 220 + 22 + 55 = 297 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 297 (326.7 w/Level 5 module, 319.25 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage
MPL - 440 + 44 + 110 = 594 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 561 (617.1 w/Level 5 module, 659.175 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage
LPL - 730 + 73 + 182.5 = 985.5 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 1200 (1320 w/Level 5 module, 1410 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage

PPC - 1080 + 108 + 270 = 1485 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 1620 (1782 w/Level 5 module, 1903 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage
ERPPC - 1620 + 162 + 405 = 2187 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 1620 (1782 w/Level 5 module, 1903 w/TC7) - IS Range Advantage

Now, IF, IS could reliably load an XL in their BJ's and survive a side torso loss, I'd say, "Wow, some of the Energy Range quirks are "exceptional" along with the structure quirks, because, dang talk about survivability and range."

The fact is, the only way the IS gets a clear RANGE advantage is to load those 25% range quirked 'mechs with either ERLL's or ERPPC's.

Considering that Clan ERLL's and ERPPC's are lighter, smaller, and do more damage than the IS versions, the Clan not only has the opportunity to load MORE weapons and heat sinks, BUT ALSO, given that the Clan enemy will be using an XL, they'll have the speed to close in and completely mitigate the IS advantage on those two particular weapons.

Sorry, but complaining the IS is OP because ONE 'mech, that's kind of hard to kill, that is loading a SMALLER alpha than most Clanner builds, can also when loading two particular weapons has slightly longer range, is just silly.

The build options are rather limited when you're forced to stick with heavier standard engines, for survivability and your weapons are generally at least 1 ton and 1 crit slot larger than the enemy.

You Clanners get a FREE 4 tons worth of CASE quirk. You get 100% survivable ST loss XL's quirks. Your weapons are generally quirked to be lighter and smaller. Your weapons quirked to generally hit harder. Your weapons are quirked, except for a specific few cases, to be longer ranged.

Again, I don't see HOW Clanners can complain that the IS is OP, and that they need even MORE quirks...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 27 December 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

I find all this raucous over the Blackjack a bit misplaced because I don't find Blackjacks hard to kill. They still go down in two or three alpha-strikes to the CT with most of the 'Mech intact, same as they always have. Compare to a Storm Crow, which usually dies to a double ST loss or double legging, I'd say the Storm Crow is still the superior machine. With the loss or reduction of duration and heat-gen quirkage on the BJ-1X, using it as a poke machine isn't as much of a guaranteed hard-carry as it used to be since its damage-out over damage-in is significantly less favorable. It's definitely more along the lines of the Storm Crow as a C-ERML/C-MPL boat now. Decent at poking, dangerous if left unchallenged, but completely vulnerable if rushed because it fires too hot and too slow and it has a crap twist arc.

And the rest of them? I see so few of them on the battlefield that it's hard to get a good gauge. If there's a non-1X Blackjack on the field, it's usually me. BJ-3 is still a fantastic PPC carrier, but I find the new reduction in rate of fire to be just a hair constricting on its ability to carry a PUG match. Outside of the 1X and 3 in poke and poptarting roles, there's nothing standout about the chassis. It's merely solid at everything that doesn't involve missiles and that's it.

[Aiden Skye]

Dimento Graven, on 27 December 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

Well, let's see... Clans get free CASE for EVERY part of the mech. That's pretty cool... If Clans want 'quirks', invest some of the weight you guys get free in a TC.

You complain about quirks when all a Clanner has to do to get some fairly decent additions to their ranges and projectile speed is buy a TC.

Clan Targeting Computers:

Increase AC and PPC projectile speed (except LBX)
Increase Laser ranges
Increase AC, Laser, and PPC crit chances (except LBX)

The larger the TC you purchase, the bigger the increases you get, and considering the already higher damage, longer range, lighter weight, smaller hard point BASE "quirks" of Clan weaponry, it's a considerable benefit.

So MAYBE you have to invest in one or two less lasers for your laser vomit, considering the bonuses you get, seems like it'd be more than worth it, and you get MORE quirks.

Yeah buddy, assume much? Most times I don't run laser vomit these days. You can find me running CERPPC's most of the time these days in CW. Laser vomit on everything gets extremely boring. Also what TC will I need to get 900-1k effective range for my lasers? Max is 870m with a TC7 and it costs massive tonnage that you will need for heatsinks. Now that that's out of the way...

You might have missed the part where I specifically said Under-performing Clan chassis. I hate when people talk balance, they only think about best vs best. What about the rest? Mechs like the Mist-lynx, Ice ferret and summoner. These are the mechs that need some help. If I put anything higher than a Tc2 in my Mist-lynx for example thats a serious portion of its limited tonnage. It cannot take a Tc7. Low firepower, slow, non existent armor. What is the point of this mech?

If I put said Tc7 in my shadow-cat, thats major tonnage lost for the very, very few weapons it can carry.
Not to mention who in their right mind would take a Tc7. The higher your TC the less its worth it. Seriously 7 tons is not worth it for most mechs.

But anyway I'm not saying Tier 1 Clan mechs need quirks. But just like all the underwhelming, IS chassis got buffed - which has resulted in a lot more mechs bringing something to the table on the IS side (which I bet you are thankful for), the underwhelming, pointless Clan chassis should be be brought up to snuff.

Edited by W A R K H A N, 27 December 2015 - 03:51 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Jman5, on 27 December 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Nearly 1/3 of all Clan mechs have monster hitpoint quirks (+75-140). Everyone talks about IS quirks, but Clans get a sizable number of mega-quirked mechs. It makes talking about IS vs Clan balance difficult for me because you have such a major caveat.

I went through Clan mechs and here is what they can have in the major hitpoint quirk department. Keep in mind many of these mechs also have modest weapon and agility quirks, but I'll leave that for another discussion.

• Mist Lynx(25): +92 hitpoint quirks
  
• Kit Fox(30): +76 hitpoint quirks
  
• Adder (35): +76 hitpoint quirks
  
• Ice Ferret(45): +96 hitpoint quirks
  
• Nova(50): +140 hitpoint quirks
  
• Summoner(70): +89 hitpoint quirks
  
• Gargoyle(80): +110 hitpoint quirks
  
• Warhawk (85): +101 hitpoint quirks

Clans have choices if you're looking for beefy Clan mechs. If people refuse to use them because they aren't the perfect storm of upgrades and engines that's their prerogative. Personally, I've used some of these to great effect in CW.

It's depressing that even with 92 extra structure, the MLX still doesn't work because they put most of it in the wrong spots and on the wrong pod variants. Arms, PGI, arms! It needs armor in the arms, and lots of it!

[Aresye]

Dimento Graven, on 27 December 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

Stuff about Clans still having the advantage with a TC7...

NOBODY uses a TC7 dude. If it was even slightly feasible to utilize one to get the biggest range advantage possible for lasers, you'd see it utilized on a wide variety of mechs.

Do your calculations again but use a TC1 instead, because that's really the only size TC worth taking, especially with how hot Clan mechs run and the necessity to load up on as many heat sinks as possible. Perhaps a TC2 might be utilized if there's an extra ton and crit slot available, but that's about as large as they go for any serious, non-troll builds.

Anyone who thinks the bigger TCs offer anything special over the TC1 or TC2 doesn't have a clue about the mech lab or game mechanics. An extra DHS, ERML, or ammo will ALWAYS offer more advantages than a larger TC.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 27 December 2015 - 03:43 PM.

[El Bandito]

Aresye Kerensky, on 27 December 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

What would you say about this then?


Or this?


If you know DW, you should know they aren't exactly the kind of team that would struggle with pugs. I also know the Lord on the other side of the screen shot (Lucy Lui), is an absolutely fantastic player, and frequently plays with DW's comp team in MRBC, where they just so happened to be crowned the NA Division B champions about a month ago, beating teams such as: SwK, -42-, FotM, and SiG (my team).

I literally played against these same players competitively. I know their capabilities, and I know my own. I just got done with playing Clan as part of CWI for OVER a year. I've beaten my all-time highest damage/all-time highest kills within 3 days of switching to IS, and I easily held my own and carried my team (like it was nothing) against large groups from a unit that was the TOUGHEST competitive team in my own team's bracket.

Explain that please.

[-DW-] is not that good. I played with them at least twice back when I was just starting CW in early December, and our mixed team had won on both.






In comparison, team like [-SC-] is much more impressive, IMO.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 December 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

i have a CTF-1X that i use in the solo queue. Out of all my mechs, it is hands down the easiest to do well in. I simply do not need to put in the same amount of effort that i need with a EBJ or timberwolf, let alone a summoner. And the CTF-1X is nowhere near as optimal as a tbolt.

The balance now is argubably worse than a year ago pre-clans, when everyone was boating PPC/ballistics. At least THEN, we had SOME mech variety. When i drop in CW and almost every non trial mech i see are LL/LPL/MPL tbolts, battlemasters and stalkers, i just cannot help but facepalm. Cant wait for black knights to be released for c-bills so we get another LPL/MPL boat.

Part of the problem is that the gap between IS pulse and normal lasers is huge now. With the way ghost heat works, 3x LPL is a no brainer compared to 3x LL if you are a heavy or assault (assuming the variant has no LL specific quirks). Sure, 3x LPL costs 6 more tons compared to 3x LL, but that's not a big deal when you take into account ghost heat. 4x LL vs 3x LPL would be a fairer comparison, but ghost heat prevents that.

3x LPL (assuming no weapon specific quirks) is so good that when i asked in the battlemech sub forum, nobody could come up with a comparable heavy or assault build (without taking advantage of weapon specific quirks) that didnt use it. A 33 point alpha with decent range, very short burn time (with quirks) and amazing heat efficiency is the new meta precisely because nothing else comes close. Its like a lighter version of dual gauss.

Originally i tried using a brawler CTF-1X with 5x med pulse and a AC10...but after crunching the numbers, i realised this was really dumb when 3x LPL and a UAC 5 gave me much better range, heat efficiency, nearly the same alpha and DPS...even though the brawler version was shorter range (which USUALLY means more heat efficient weapons) and had more heat sinks.

The skill tree nerf did nothing but discourage brawling because even a 81 kph mech with double basics moves and turns like a turtle. Unless you have quirks. This was made painfully clear when i tried to out-circle a trial atlas in a EBJ and couldn't.

And everyone except paul knows that the quirks have done nothing except make certain variants the i-win button. There is zero reason to use any medium other than a blackjack when it has more IS than an assault.

Clan mechs still retain some advantages, but most of them have become redundant now with quirks, and only mechs with both FF/Endo and non-******** engine sizes/JJs remain viable. Which comes down to a very small list.

Just had a look at the map and clan wolf has lost nearly half of its starting planets. Gee, i wonder why?

Edited by Jun Watarase, 27 December 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Well these posts escalated quickly. So I want to bring it down to a few senteces.

I feel IS is stronger than Clans. Two reasons:

• I play both sides and thats what I feel in CW and Pub queue.
  
• Far too many IS players claim it is "balanced" now. This means they are statisfied regardless of their skill level, implying a certain imbalance between factiontech. Usually OP-crying has to be 50/50, but it is not anymore.