829 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

pbiggz, on 13 January 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

(snip)
Bishop and Pariah want to see the other chassis that aren't in before we see the mk ii.
(snip)

Close. I mean, I can't speak for Bishop. My concern is having a good stable of mechs in each weight class that offer competitive pros and cons within their weight bracket. Right now, the single worst weight class we have are mediums, due to a lack of a 40 ton mech of any sort, the 45 ton mechs being stinkers, and the Nova being way too large, and thus squishy, for the current point in time. It isn't a competitive list of medium choices. There really is only one choice, and that, to me, is a problem. (Edit: forgot about the Hunch IIC - good mech, but squishy side torsos.)

Light mechs and assault mechs are our next weakest, in that order, but it is fairly close. Lights have the ACH for a "proper" light, as well as the Jenner IIC, but there's also the Adder for an unconventional light mech. The MLX and KFX are sad, however. There is also a missing 20 ton bracket for Lights in the Clan deck.

The Assaults are either a Dire Wolf, which even though it is awful to pilot puts out absolutely stupid damage, or the Warhawk, which has significant firepower and a solid amount of mobility. The EXE and HGN are a firm "meh," in that, while they are not terrible, they are not particularly fantastic at their weight vs comparable tonnage mechs. The Gargoyle, however, is a joke. There are zero missing tonnage slots in the Assault mech deck.

Heavies? Well, we have a fairly strong set of heavies, Summoner and MDD notwithstanding. The EBJ, HBR, and TBR are solid, and there are no gaps in the tonnage range. The ON1 IIC is not terrible, either, but I'd put it in between the Summoner and the Timberwolf as far as threat level is concerned.

TL;DR: looking where we NEED help. Not where I WANT a new toy. Rule of cool is awesome, but we don't have enough viable choice to start fanboying it up in here quite yet. But close! Close!

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 January 2016 - 12:13 PM.

[pbiggz]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 January 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

Close. I mean, I can't speak for Bishop. My concern is having a good stable of mechs in each weight class that offer competitive pros and cons within their weight bracket. Right now, the single worst weight class we have are mediums, due to a lack of a 40 ton mech of any sort, the 45 ton mechs being stinkers, and the Nova being way too large, and thus squishy, for the current point in time. It isn't a competitive list of medium choices. There really is only one choice, and that, to me, is a problem. (Edit: forgot about the Hunch IIC - good mech, but squishy side torsos.)

Light mechs and assault mechs are our next weakest, in that order, but it is fairly close. Lights have the ACH for a "proper" light, as well as the Jenner IIC, but there's also the Adder for an unconventional light mech. The MLX and KFX are sad, however. There is also a missing 20 ton bracket for Lights in the Clan deck.

The Assaults are either a Dire Wolf, which even though it is awful to pilot puts out absolutely stupid damage, or the Warhawk, which has significant firepower and a solid amount of mobility. The EXE and HGN are a firm "meh," in that, while they are not terrible, they are not particularly fantastic at their weight vs comparable tonnage mechs. The Gargoyle, however, is a joke. There are zero missing tonnage slots in the Assault mech deck.

Heavies? Well, we have a fairly strong set of heavies, Summoner and MDD notwithstanding. The EBJ, HBR, and TBR are solid, and there are no gaps in the tonnage range. The ON1 IIC is not terrible, either, but I'd put it in between the Summoner and the Timberwolf as far as threat level is concerned.

TL;DR: looking where we NEED help. Not where I WANT a new toy. Rule of cool is awesome, but we don't have enough viable choice to start fanboying it up in here quite yet. But close! Close!

See thats where we actually disagree. It'd be nice to have a 40 tonner, but I personally am waiting for an actual assault mech that works in CW and justifies itself over just being a sub optimal timberwolf that eats up a big chunk of my drop deck. You never see clan assaults in CW. You only see direwolves in public queue, and only if people are diehard daisy players, because with the movement nerfs theyre even harder to play than they've ever been.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 13 January 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Also stop telling people not to vote for stuff from outside the timeline. Russ wants to see what people want, whether it makes it into the game or not a call any of us can actually make.

Would love to see where any of us told people "NOT TO VOTE OUTSIDE TIMELINE".

We clarified what Russ was asking for if they apparently want their vote to count toward this Pack.... but have never told anyone not to vote for whatever. Voting for the MKII is fine, it allows Russ to gauge interest for future packs and the inevitable timeline/tech jump.

Portraying it as what Russ asked for those is disingenuous, and only serves to a certain agenda. THAT is the only thing any of us have been forceful about, and even that wasn't till AFTER Impy started throwing hissy fits and coming after anyone who didn't agree with the mkII being the Immaculate Mech as if they were personally insulting him and attacking his children.

Which has only been further demonstrated for all to see (and likely at the undermining of his own agenda) by the continuously devolving immature rants he has resorted to the last couple of days, seeming coinciding with about the time I twitter blocked him.

I'm sorry if your own confirmation bias/or closeness to Imp is blinding you to that, but it's pretty glaringly obvious to just about everyone else Biggz. Was I pushing some secret agenda on Stock Mech Night? Am I here?

No. What I do have are reasons I agree with Russ in adhering at least semi closely to the timeline. And yes, I would love to see mechs that have NEVER gotten into the game come out before we see the same old suspects retread. Yet you notice I have not actually pushed anyone to vote for them. In fact, many of the out of timeline mechs, like the Blood Asp, MiffedKitty mkII, and such, I acknowledge as desirable, and do want them in.

I'm simply content to let them arrive when they do, as the timeline advances, because we all know that the mkII, Uziel, Bushwackers and other MW video games staples are DEAD LOCKS to arrive at some point or another.

But if you can justify ignoring the timeline to bring in a 3061 mech because it uses current tech, I am simply demonstrated using the Hellstar (dark age mech) and others how slippery a slope that becomes. Because then it becomes a popularity contest and race for all the same old mechs we have seen time and again......which we all know will make it in anyhow, eventually.

[Gas Guzzler]

pbiggz, on 13 January 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

See thats where we actually disagree. It'd be nice to have a 40 tonner, but I personally am waiting for an actual assault mech that works in CW and justifies itself over just being a sub optimal timberwolf that eats up a big chunk of my drop deck. You never see clan assaults in CW. You only see direwolves in public queue, and only if people are diehard daisy players, because with the movement nerfs theyre even harder to play than they've ever been.

Hey hey hey

My Executioner performs phenomenally well in CW.

[Pariah Devalis]

pbiggz, on 13 January 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

See thats where we actually disagree. It'd be nice to have a 40 tonner, but I personally am waiting for an actual assault mech that works in CW and justifies itself over just being a sub optimal timberwolf that eats up a big chunk of my drop deck. You never see clan assaults in CW. You only see direwolves in public queue, and only if people are diehard daisy players, because with the movement nerfs theyre even harder to play than they've ever been.

I suppose my follow up question would be "where are you going to get that tonnage for that assault in CW?" Short of stacking light mechs, it would be in our mediums - and our choices currently suck. :\ Also, assuming the new cw 4v4 mode has an even further reduced drop limit (based on the video it was mediumcentric) we'd be absolutely screwed without more flexible options, there.

[Bishop Steiner]

Imperius, on 13 January 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Timeline is minor consideration <- no clarification was needed but it definitely didn't fit your agenda. So you three "clarified" that's exactly what happened.

Now we get 4 onmi mechs in 3053 lol DOA pack it is

Huh, and yet Russ clarified it... because you took "minor consideration" as "not a consideration at all" in your typical myopic manner, when it was pretty obvious from following tweets that Russ was expecting common sense (first mistake with internet gamers) to be a pretty solid guide... or at least a good solid argument for why it should appear a bit ahead of schedule.... since he added the "3053" with NO goading or comment from me.

Biggest problem is you have shown time and again that your only argument for the mkII is "BECAUSE I LIKE IT!!!".

Which is not a bad thing...but it doesn't really compel, either.

[0bsidion]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 January 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

Close. I mean, I can't speak for Bishop. My concern is having a good stable of mechs in each weight class that offer competitive pros and cons within their weight bracket. Right now, the single worst weight class we have are mediums, due to a lack of a 40 ton mech of any sort, the 45 ton mechs being stinkers, and the Nova being way too large, and thus squishy, for the current point in time. It isn't a competitive list of medium choices. There really is only one choice, and that, to me, is a problem. (Edit: forgot about the Hunch IIC - good mech, but squishy side torsos.)

Light mechs and assault mechs are our next weakest, in that order, but it is fairly close. Lights have the ACH for a "proper" light, as well as the Jenner IIC, but there's also the Adder for an unconventional light mech. The MLX and KFX are sad, however. There is also a missing 20 ton bracket for Lights in the Clan deck.

The Assaults are either a Dire Wolf, which even though it is awful to pilot puts out absolutely stupid damage, or the Warhawk, which has significant firepower and a solid amount of mobility. The EXE and HGN are a firm "meh," in that, while they are not terrible, they are not particularly fantastic at their weight vs comparable tonnage mechs. The Gargoyle, however, is a joke. There are zero missing tonnage slots in the Assault mech deck.

Heavies? Well, we have a fairly strong set of heavies, Summoner and MDD notwithstanding. The EBJ, HBR, and TBR are solid, and there are no gaps in the tonnage range. The ON1 IIC is not terrible, either, but I'd put it in between the Summoner and the Timberwolf as far as threat level is concerned.

TL;DR: looking where we NEED help. Not where I WANT a new toy. Rule of cool is awesome, but we don't have enough viable choice to start fanboying it up in here quite yet. But close! Close!

If we're trying to fill in blanks with this pack, to me this line up would make the most sense:

Light = Firemoth
Medium = Coyotl
Heavy = Well, this is anyone's game as we've got the heavy class pretty well rounded. So I'd vote for Woodsman or Lupus all day long for it. Night Gyr would be OK I guess too.
Assault = Kingfisher, because Clan doesn't have a 90 ton omni in the game yet.

[Gas Guzzler]

0bsidion, on 13 January 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

If we're trying to fill in blanks with this pack, to me this line up would make the most sense:

Light = Firemoth
Medium = Coyotl
Heavy = Well, this is anyone's game as we've got the heavy class pretty well rounded. So I'd vote for Woodsman or Lupus all day long for it. Night Gyr would be OK I guess too.
Assault = Kingfisher, because Clan doesn't have a 90 ton omni in the game yet.

Viper would be a good 40 tonner as well.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 13 January 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

See thats where we actually disagree. It'd be nice to have a 40 tonner, but I personally am waiting for an actual assault mech that works in CW and justifies itself over just being a sub optimal timberwolf that eats up a big chunk of my drop deck. You never see clan assaults in CW. You only see direwolves in public queue, and only if people are diehard daisy players, because with the movement nerfs theyre even harder to play than they've ever been.

I note that I generally see very limited IS Assault MEchs, too.... because with Tonnage Considerations and the CW map design, Assaults are generally just not ideal to begin with.

That has as much to do with it as anything.

[Lykaon]

Wintersdark, on 11 January 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

The Turkina would be flat out awful in MWO. Something less maneuverable than the Dire Wolf, with nothing to show for it. Yay.

That is assuming there are no manuverabilty quirks for the Turkina. The issue is the Kingfisher would not be a good choice because do we take a Direwolf or a standard engine Kingfisher?

As it is now any clan omni without XL,Endo and Ferro is considered bad. So idealy any additions should be selected from Omnimechs with those features ie. Turkina with XL,Endo and ferro and not Kingfisher with a std engine.

If the Turkina is given impressive torso twist speed along with superior pitch and yaw of the torso coupled with good arm reflex and chassis acceleration and deceleration mods it's not just a smaller worse direwolf anymore.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 January 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

TL;DR: looking where we NEED help. Not where I WANT a new toy. Rule of cool is awesome, but we don't have enough viable choice to start fanboying it up in here quite yet. But close! Close!

and this summarizes the difference between Impy's Agenda and the so called agenda of the "Big Bad Three".

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pbiggz, on 13 January 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

I put the dual gauss in my direwolf arms anyway. Why would you ever put explosive gauss on your torsos. Even with clan XL and free case it makes you way easier to kill.

Because you get to poke and gain higher mounts, and now with the ERML nerfs there really isn't a strong reason to use the prime arms since your going to be asymmetric anyway with 3 LPL and 2 Gauss. As for being way easier to kill, it makes you slightly weaker but it really isn't all that bad considering what you gain.

Also, if we are shooting for out of timeline assaults, you really can't go wrong with the Blood Asp, it is probably the best option outside of maybe the Marauder IIC.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 January 2016 - 12:29 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lykaon, on 13 January 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

That is assuming there are no manuverabilty quirks for the Turkina. The issue is the Kingfisher would not be a good choice because do we take a Direwolf or a standard engine Kingfisher?

As it is now any clan omni without XL,Endo and Ferro is considered bad. So idealy any additions should be selected from Omnimechs with those features ie. Turkina with XL,Endo and ferro and not Kingfisher with a std engine.

If the Turkina is given impressive torso twist speed along with superior pitch and yaw of the torso coupled with good arm reflex and chassis acceleration and deceleration mods it's not just a smaller worse direwolf anymore.

Dire and Turkina do not have endo or ferro. Kingfisher has endo and ferro. So your argument here is pretty weak.

Do you take a Dire or a Kingfisher? Well the Kingfisher is considerably more mobile, and for all the agility quirks that PGI could give the Turkina (I find anything significant pretty unlikely), the Kingfisher could get a ton of durability quirks we just don't know.

I would take the Kingfisher over the Turkina being added to the game. The Turkey is just too similar to the Dire, and something a little bit different would be nice. There is a good chance the Kingfisher could do some things better than the Highlander IIC (like boat lasers).

[Bishop Steiner]

0bsidion, on 13 January 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

Heavy = Well, this is anyone's game as we've got the heavy class pretty well rounded.

Yeah, this as much as anything is why I was comfortable voting Crossbow for a Heavy.... simply because the Heavy class is so well represented with Tier 1 Meta Mechs we don't NEED to worry too much about the Heavy slot.

Mind you, the Night Gyr IS a better mech. As is the Woodsman (my second pick with the Nova Cat being out of timeline), but do we NEED another Tier 1 Metalord Heavy? What does that really bring to the table? Slower so more guns, so it does have variety, but it doesn't fill a need, either. Hence why out of all the weight classes, the Heavy is the one most open to "fun" or "because do like" type picks. (yet one might notice I have spammed every twitter acct and forum topics with my "Crossbow Agenda". I want it, but am willing to simply state why, and leave it at that)

Assault and Medium are in desperate need of good options, but IMO; Medium more so, because Assaults are of minimal viability in CW anyhow, which is the argument being used for why we so desperately "need" the mkII.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 January 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Because you get to poke and gain higher mounts, and now with the ERML nerfs there really isn't a strong reason to use the prime arms since your going to be asymmetric anyway with 3 LPL and 2 Gauss. As for being way easier to kill, it makes you slightly weaker but it really isn't all that bad considering what you gain.

Also, if we are shooting for out of timeline assaults, you really can't go wrong with the Blood Asp, it is probably the best option outside of maybe the Marauder IIC.

best potential CW hardpoint of any such Assault.

Gas Guzzler, on 13 January 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

Dire and Turkina do not have endo or ferro. Kingfisher has endo and ferro. So your argument here is pretty weak.

Do you take a Dire or a Kingfisher? Well the Kingfisher is considerably more mobile, and for all the agility quirks that PGI could give the Turkina (I find anything significant pretty unlikely), the Kingfisher could get a ton of durability quirks we just don't know.

I would take the Kingfisher over the Turkina being added to the game. The Turkey is just too similar to the Dire, and something a little bit different would be nice. There is a good chance the Kingfisher could do some things better than the Highlander IIC (like boat lasers).

I don't disagree, but we really need a better criteria for mech than "boating lasers" and the Mr Gargles and Sexecutioner cover that pretty well. (with similar lack of podspace tonange to the King)

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 January 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

Mind you, the Night Gyr IS a better mech. As is the Woodsman (my second pick with the Nova Cat being out of timeline), but do we NEED another Tier 1 Metalord Heavy? What does that really bring to the table? Slower so more guns, so it does have variety, but it doesn't fill a need, either. Hence why out of all the weight classes, the Heavy is the one most open to "fun" or "because do like" type picks. (yet one might notice I have spammed every twitter acct and forum topics with my "Crossbow Agenda". I want it, but am willing to simply state why, and leave it at that)

Well it does the Mad Cat Mk. II loadout which is cool (minus the LRM 10s, and I would be taking those off the MC Mk.II anyway). No other mech can do that with JJs. While that would be good, I'm not sure if it would outclass some of the other heavies we have, but it would be a very nice addition in my opinion, it would be the only heavy omni mech that goes 70 kph, that alone makes me want it. Should be able to Dakka as well.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 13 January 2016 - 12:33 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 January 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

Yeah, this as much as anything is why I was comfortable voting Crossbow for a Heavy.... simply because the Heavy class is so well represented with Tier 1 Meta Mechs we don't NEED to worry too much about the Heavy slot.

Yeah but isn't the Crossbow the exact same speed as the other Clan heavies? Shouldn't that be a slight point for the Night Gyr or Linebacker .

Crossbow wishes it were a Battlemech so bad, its predecessor looks really cool and then you see the Omni version and are just left disappointed (much like the Battle Cobra the other CSV omni). Long story short, CSV did not know how to design omnis but they sure knew how to make battlemechs.

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 January 2016 - 12:34 PM, said:

Yeah but isn't the Crossbow the exact same speed as the other Clan heavies? Shouldn't that be a slight point for the Night Gyr or Linebacker .

Crossbow wishes it were a Battlemech so bad, its predecessor looks really cool and then you see the Omni version and are just left disappointed (much like the Battle Cobra the other CSV omni). Long story short, CSV did not know how to design omnis but they sure knew how to make battlemechs.

At least it looks really, really cool. Aesthetically. Hell, if LRMs were worth taking than the Crossbow might not even be that terrible.

If.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 January 2016 - 12:37 PM.

[0bsidion]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 January 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Viper would be a good 40 tonner as well.

I will grant you that it doesn't suffer from the severe hard point shortage the Coyotl has, although as I mentioned before, that lack could be fixed by PGIs 2 made up variants. What it does suffer from is the weird tendency to overengine Clan mediums. Might be OK despite that though.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

0bsidion, on 13 January 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

I will grant you that it doesn't suffer from the severe hard point shortage the Coyotl has, although as I mentioned before, that lack could be fixed by PGIs 2 made up variants. What it does suffer from is the weird tendency to overengine Clan mediums. Might be OK despite that though.

It really isn't overengined, Cicadas tend to run around 280-340 (295-325 is my "sweet" spot) which puts that within the range. Its problem is the 8 locked JJs, but man will it be fun.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 January 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

I don't disagree, but we really need a better criteria for mech than "boating lasers" and the Mr Gargles and Sexecutioner cover that pretty well. (with similar lack of podspace tonange to the King)

Well everyone has different criteria...

But I will say between all the torso hardpoints and how the arms are designed the hardpoints SHOULD be much higher/better than the hardpoints on the gargles and the gladbag.