106 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Lately, I've set 2 goals for myself:

• I needed to save a lot of C-bills so I can instantly buy all the Maulers and fully upgrade them when they're available for C-bills next week.
  
• I need to get to Tier 1 to reduce the average number of steering wheels on my team.

As it happens, I have the perfect vessel to reach my goals:



There's a myth on the forums that LRM boats are terrible. There's also a myth that LRM boats are OP and need to be nerfed. It's kind of funny, because in 50% of my matches, I get flak from enemies for being a no skill LRM boat noob. In the other 50% of my matches, I get flak from my teammates for being a useless LRM boat who contributes nothing to my team.

While I don't want to take anything away from their keen analysis, here are some raw numbers from my last 30 matches:

• Average match score is 374.
  
• Average damage is 605.
  
• WLR is 1.7 in solo queue (Tier 2)
  
• In 30 matches, only 4 resulted in lower PSR. 26 matches raised my PSR.

Spreadsheet here:

Spoiler

So you see, Ivan, when you run terrible Awesome mech, your terribleness spreads to enemies and kills them.

TL;DR:

• LRM boats do contribute to winning matches
  
• LRM boats are great for farming cash
  
• LRM boats are great for increasing PSR
  
• While ineffective against the very best MWO players, I dare say that 90% of MWO players die from LRMs just fine.

PS: I do not think LRMs in MWO are well balanced, by the way. I think the missile lock mechanism needs to be redesigned to put more emphasis on aiming skills, and then you can increase missile speed and make LRMs good weapons for comp teams too. Right now, you need almost zero aiming skills, you only need a good sense of tactics and positioning to do well with LRMs. But that's a discussion for another time.

[Tarogato]

Mediocre 1.06 kill ratio

Crazy inefficient 567-to-1 damage/kill ratio.

That's why LRMs are actually bad. It's right there in your data. =P

Edited by Tarogato, 27 January 2016 - 05:24 AM.

[TercieI]

"LRM boats are great for increasing PSR"

Wel, that's the final nail in PSR's coffin.

[XX Sulla XX]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

Lately, I've set 2 goals for myself:

• I needed to save a lot of C-bills so I can instantly buy all the Maulers and fully upgrade them when they're available for C-bills next week.
  
• I need to get to Tier 1 to reduce the average number of steering wheels on my team.

As it happens, I have the perfect vessel to reach my goals:





There's a myth on the forums that LRM boats are terrible. There's also a myth that LRM boats are OP and need to be nerfed. It's kind of funny, because in 50% of my matches, I get flak from enemies for being a no skill LRM boat noob. In the other 50% of my matches, I get flak from my teammates for being a useless LRM boat who contributes nothing to my team.

While I don't want to take anything away from their keen analysis, here are some raw numbers from my last 30 matches:

• Average match score is 374.
  
• Average damage is 605.
  
• WLR is 1.7 in solo queue (Tier 2)
  
• In 30 matches, only 4 resulted in lower PSR. 26 matches raised my PSR.

Spreadsheet here:

Spoiler

So you see, Ivan, when you run terrible Awesome mech, your terribleness spreads to enemies and kills them.

TL;DR:

• LRM boats do contribute to winning matches
  
• LRM boats are great for farming cash
  
• LRM boats are great for increasing PSR
  
• While ineffective against the very best MWO players, I dare say that 90% of MWO players die from LRMs just fine.

PS: I do not think LRMs in MWO are well balanced, by the way. I think the missile lock mechanism needs to be redesigned to put more emphasis on aiming skills, and then you can increase missile speed and make LRMs good weapons for comp teams too. Right now, you need almost zero aiming skills, you only need a good sense of tactics and positioning to do well with LRMs. But that's a discussion for another time.

Its not so much about being terrible its just most people would RATHER have a better direct fire mech than an LRM boat standing in back not taking its share of damage until the game is over. They would rather have a mech putting all of its damage on the open spot on the mech they call out. The would rather have some one on the high ground with them instantly punishing any mech that peeks with targeted direct damage.

Just think about one part of this. When peaking if you outnumber the peakers on the other side and call targets better you win. The LRM boat does not help that. They can peak get the shots off and get back into cover before missiles are even close to them most of the time.

Another aspect is just tanking damage. If your say Atlas is up front it can tank a HUGE amount of damage. It can keep other players alive and firing much longer. It increases your entire teams damage output if used correctly.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 27 January 2016 - 05:30 AM.

[Black Fish]

People think numbers is everything. They are - if you take ALL of then into account like how much accuracy was reduced to the enemy as direct cause of lrms. I like your post. +1

[mogs01gt]

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

Mediocre 1.06 kill ratio
Crazy inefficient 567-to-1 damage/kill ratio.
That's why LRMs are actually bad. It's right there in your data. =P

Last time I checked, you play games to win and not farm Cbills. 1.7 w/l ratio is fantastic and what truly matters in MMO gaming. I tend to win more games using LRM mechs(edit: inaccurate, my high winrate is in my 4n).


NJ winter! We should team up with my LRM KTO and rekt fools!

Edited by mogs01gt, 27 January 2016 - 05:47 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

Crazy inefficient 567-to-1 damage/kill ratio.

That sums it up right there, both with why LRMs are bad, Match Score Mathematics are bad, etc.

DMG is far too heavily weighted, efficiency, ignored. One should be averaging a kill for every 200 dmg to be "doing good". 250ish at worst. 150 or less if you want to be "comp".

LRMs give gaudy damage numbers (as do lasers in most hands) because they splash damage all over the place. But most of it is ineffective damage, and thus is very artificial. It's good for Epeen, largely insignificant toward killing things and winning the match.

If you cannot focus that damage into one component, take advantage of opened armor, etc, it really doesn't matter much.

And that's why they need to put a lot less weight on damage, and start putting more weight on "hitbox" accuracy, which should not be an issue to track how much of your fire hit what hitbox, etc.

I'm not anti LRM... I use them, and like to have a rack on some mechs as it's nice to be able to help the Lights if the hit R, nail an opponent you haven't maneuvered to get LoS on yet, etc. And I've seen even experienced players grab cover when Betty starts screaming Incoming Missiles.

But to claim they are actually good/useful in most cases, I think is overstated. Mind you, like many things in this game, they can tip from UP to OP very easy (open terrain and a NARC, well, suddenly LRMs may still be inefficient, but they are useful).

One nice thing at least.... LRMs make pitiful money when they are used to farm off other peoples locks out of LoS, and significantly better when you get your own (and TAG).

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 January 2016 - 05:40 AM.

[Ratpoison]

Agreed with the sentiment here, although personally I don't like taking such little armament for a secondary weapon system, as I feel that a truly helpful LRM build needs to have enough power in its secondary weapons to use them as primary when your LRM path is obscured(tunnels, overpasses, excessive cover especially). For example, I run the Marauder 5D with 2 LRM15+A's, a tag in the shoulder mount, and three large lasers in the arms, that allow me to contribute solid damage in any situation. In addition to being active during more points of your matches, the pinpoint damage of the lasers makes kills with the missles MUCH faster and more damage efficient, while also increasing your burst damage ability on the whole. I feel that LRM's are a decently solid, underrated tactical option that CANNOT reach their full potential on their own; they must be paired with an effective secondary weapon, unlike most LRM builds on the field.

[Bishop Steiner]

mogs01gt, on 27 January 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

Last time I checked, you play games to win and not farm Cbills. 1.7 w/l ratio is fantastic and what truly matters in MMO gaming.


NJ winter! We should team up with my LRM KTO and rekt fools!

In most cases, that 1.7 W/L is not because of LRMs. Fast aimable fire guarantees wins better...except when you have people too afraid to advance. Also, that damage to kill ratio is very much all about farming cbills.

[Alistair Winter]

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

Mediocre 1.06 kill ratio
Crazy inefficient 567-to-1 damage/kill ratio.
That's why LRMs are actually bad. It's right there in your data. =P

That's a really weird answer. My parameters in this case are:

• I want to get rich fast
  
• I want to increase my PSR
  
• I want to win (not necessarily a goal in itself, but it helps my PSR)

With those parameters, I don't care who lands the killing blow. It's totally irrelevant. And I don't care anything at all about damage to kill ratio, because I don't see how that is in any way relevant. That's like saying "You only do 600 damage, but if you landed 100% of all missiles you would do 3600 damage." Well, so what? It's a valid point, but it's irrelevant.

I'm not saying that everyone should play LRM boats, I don't even play them all that much. I play them when I need to get rich fast or increase my PSR fast. And as it happens, they also win matches.

TercieI, on 27 January 2016 - 05:24 AM, said:

"LRM boats are great for increasing PSR"
Wel, that's the final nail in PSR's coffin.

Hell, I wouldn't mind a more skill based skill rating system. What we have now is an XP system that heavily favours assault mechs and LRM boats. It severely punishes light mech pilots who, on average, do less damage. (I know some ACH and FS9 pilots can do as much damage as assault mechs, but it's rare to have the same average match score in a light mech)

XX Sulla XX, on 27 January 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

Its not so much about being terrible its just most people would RATHER have a better direct fire mech than an LRM boat standing in back not taking its share of damage until the game is over. They would rather have a mech putting all of its damage on the open spot on the mech they call out. The would rather have some one on the high ground with them instantly punishing any mech that peeks with targeted direct damage.
Just think about one part of this. When peaking if you outnumber the peakers on the other side and call targets better you win. The LRM boat does not help that. They can peak get the shots off and get back into cover before missiles are even close to them most of the time.
Another aspect is just tanking damage. If your say Atlas is up front it can tank a HUGE amount of damage. It can keep other players alive and firing much longer. It increases your entire teams damage output if used correctly.

This just depends on how you play your LRM boats, really. People who have seen me play should know that I don't shy away from taking damage. It's certainly possible that even though my WLR is high, it kind of requires other teammates to die in that process.

But that's somewhat irrelevant to my main point, which is:
I play LRM boats to earn C-bills and increase PSR. And it's fantastic at both.

You can say that this is a problem, and that LRM boats are overpaid both in terms of C-bills and PSR, and I'd be inclined to agree with you. But it is what it is.

Black Fish, on 27 January 2016 - 05:32 AM, said:

People think numbers is everything. They are - if you take ALL of then into account like how much accuracy was reduced to the enemy as direct cause of lrms. I like your post. +1

Thanks! This is indeed an important factor. On a map like Polar Highlands or Alpine, for example, I try to just splurge LRMs on multiple targets now and again, in situations where I feel it's more important to pin the enemy rather than doing damage. The thing is, people often show a lot of respect for the "Incoming missile" warning, and they have no way of knowing that I actually switched targets right after firing a single LRM15 salvo at them. It's essentially a bluff that people very rarely call me out on. Of course, the negative side of it is that I'm not doing a lot of damage by just peppering LRMs at targets without hitting them, but sometimes artillery is there to pin the enemy down rather than do damage.

[KodiakGW]

What I like is the fact that you probably get most of your own locks with that high mount TAG. Kudos to you for doing that. Problem is, many don't in other lurm boats.

[KinLuu]

Quote

1.7 w/l ratio is fantastic

No, it is not.

3.0 w/l ratio is what I consider better than average. Besides - you can not really calculate averages from 30 something games.

[PyckenZot]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

So you see, Ivan, when you run terrible Awesome mech, your terribleness spreads to enemies and kills them.

TL;DR:

• LRM boats do contribute to winning matches
  
• LRM boats are great for farming cash
  
• LRM boats are great for increasing PSR
  
• While ineffective against the very best MWO players, I dare say that 90% of MWO players die from LRMs just fine.

Now of course I read the entirety of the post, just copied the TL ; DR for ease of replying

• LRM boats do contribute to winning matches
  - False, LRM boats can seemingly perform well when riding the wave of a good team that can shield the said boat. They do not influence the course of a battle in any meaningful way unless in a dedicated drop
  
• LRM boats are great for farming cash
  - True, LRM boats, are damage dealers extraordinaire and tear of components like crazy. Add tag for more cash
  
• LRM boats are great for increasing PSR
  - True, PSR = Damage done = LRM friendly
  
• While ineffective against the very best MWO players, I dare say that 90% of MWO players die from LRMs just fine.
  - False, See point 1

[Felbombling]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

I get flak from enemies for being a no skill LRM boat noob. In the other 50% of my matches, I get flak from my teammates for being a useless LRM boat who contributes nothing to my team.

While I don't want to take anything away from their keen analysis, here are some raw numbers from my last 30 matches:

• Average match score is 374.
  
• Average damage is 605.
  
• WLR is 1.7 in solo queue (Tier 2)
  
• In 30 matches, only 4 resulted in lower PSR. 26 matches raised my PSR.

LOL +1

[Alistair Winter]

mogs01gt, on 27 January 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

Last time I checked, you play games to win and not farm Cbills. 1.7 w/l ratio is fantastic and what truly matters in MMO gaming. I tend to win more games using LRM mechs(edit: inaccurate, my high winrate is in my 4n).
NJ winter! We should team up with my LRM KTO and rekt fools!

Thanks! And yeah, that's definitely a problem with the argument. The conventional wisdom that high damage and low KDR is indicative of low effectiveness doesn't really apply if your WLR is really high. Because that high WLR is a sign that you're doing enough damage that your teammates are surviving long enough to land the killing blows you're not getting.

On a team level, the most important thing is to win the match. On the individual level, the most important thing is to get paid and increase your PSR, at least for me. As long as I'm winning and getting paid, I'm golden.

Milking that KDR is so 2014

tortuousGoddess, on 27 January 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

Agreed with the sentiment here, although personally I don't like taking such little armament for a secondary weapon system, as I feel that a truly helpful LRM build needs to have enough power in its secondary weapons to use them as primary when your LRM path is obscured(tunnels, overpasses, excessive cover especially). For example, I run the Marauder 5D with 2 LRM15+A's, a tag in the shoulder mount, and three large lasers in the arms, that allow me to contribute solid damage in any situation. In addition to being active during more points of your matches, the pinpoint damage of the lasers makes kills with the missles MUCH faster and more damage efficient, while also increasing your burst damage ability on the whole. I feel that LRM's are a decently solid, underrated tactical option that CANNOT reach their full potential on their own; they must be paired with an effective secondary weapon, unlike most LRM builds on the field.

I can see that. My favourite build used to be my CPLT-C1 with 2xLRM15+Artemis, 2xLL, TAG, XL300 and jump jets. A jack of all trades mech. It's actually not so bad now, with the latest quirks, but I don't play the CPLT-C1 anymore because it's just too ugly. When they fix those oversized missile-boxes, I'll probably start playing it more.

[mogs01gt]

KinLuu, on 27 January 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

No, it is not.
3.0 w/l ratio is what I consider better than average. Besides - you can not really calculate averages from 30 something games.

1:1 is average.......3.0 is insane or means MM isnt pitting you up against equal opponents.

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

In most cases, that 1.7 W/L is not because of LRMs. Fast aimable fire guarantees wins better...except when you have people too afraid to advance. Also, that damage to kill ratio is very much all about farming cbills.

Give us some math to back that up because Winter's show he wins the majority of the time with LRMs.

Edited by mogs01gt, 27 January 2016 - 06:03 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Those, who say, that LRM boats are ineffective at higher Tiers - just don't know, how to play them. 1440 ammo - too few. It's just about 400-500 dmg. I usually equip 2k ammo and even in this case I usually run out of it at the end of match. And AWS-8R is capable of carrying 3k ammo. If you play LRM boat - it should be dedicated LRM boat. Having things, like LL - is pointless waste of tonnage.

[Alistair Winter]

KinLuu, on 27 January 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

No, it is not.
3.0 w/l ratio is what I consider better than average. Besides - you can not really calculate averages from 30 something games.

Obviously. I just started keeping track of statistics for my last 30 matches, to start this thread. It's somewhat time-consuming and tiresome in the long run, so there's no way I'd do it for 200 matches. If some people choose to believe that these 30 matches were somehow not representative of my actual average, I don't really care.

I'm just explaining why I play LRM boats. And it's probably the reason why a lot of other people play them as well. Hopefully, that's a good starting point for some discussion.

As for 3.0 WLR being better than average: well, duh. The percentage of players who actually have a 3.0 WLR in the solo queue is likely to be relatively small, and I imagine most of them are playing the standard laservomit metabuilds anyway, so it's not really that interesting to talk about.

[adamts01]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

• While ineffective against the very best MWO players, I dare say that 90% of MWO players die from LRMs just fine.

PS: I do not think LRMs in MWO are well balanced, by the way.

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

Mediocre 1.06 kill ratio

Crazy inefficient 567-to-1 damage/kill ratio.

That's why LRMs are actually bad. It's right there in your data. =P

kdr might be the most worthless stat in the game. OP pretty much proved that by showing it isn't related to winning. It's all about the wins, and 1.7 w/l is respectable.

[Alistair Winter]

MrMadguy, on 27 January 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

Those, who say, that LRM boats are ineffective at higher Tiers - just don't know, how to play them. 1440 ammo - too few. It's just about 400-500 dmg. I usually equip 2k ammo and even in this case I usually run out of it at the end of match. And AWS-8R is capable of carrying 3k ammo. If you play LRM boat - it should be dedicated LRM boat. Having things, like LL - is pointless waste of tonnage.

Yeah, this is definitely a problem. While I see the point about versatility raised above, I actually think it would improve my stats considerably if I swapped my LL for a second ML and added 4 tons of ammo. It would probably result in some lower scores occasionally, but the average effectiveness would probably go up.

MWO has a min-maxing problem, as I see it. It's particularly evident with lasers and LRMs.

The only reason I'm not min-maxing harder with this build, is because I feel I need to draw the line somewhere