102 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

FupDup, on 09 February 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

Having a larger body to shoot at is supposed to be one of the tradeoffs of carrying more armor and more firepower. Those "little hitbox" mechs can't usually carry much dakka and they also have a lower health pool to deal with when they get hit by a huge salvo.

It's why people like me have complained about so many mediums being scaled the size of heavies for so long, because then why the heck wouldn't I just use a heavy? Russ insists on keeping "55 ton mech size," however...

Nah they can't carry as much but it becomes a problem when they can pack 6 - 8 lasers with pinpoint aim.

They'll still be able to down that big assault with as many shots as it takes now provided their aim is good. If it isn't, they'll be punished. The average MWO player doesn't have great aim. They have okay aim... but not great--from what I gather when watching the spectator camera.

The boxes would still be bigger on the assault than the light. Plus splash for SRMs and LRMs would give those weapon platforms a melting mechanic to help those with bad aim contributing to weapon diversity.

[Mcgral18]

Mister Blastman, on 09 February 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Go to a scalable armor hitbox/plate system.

Light 'mechs get 6 boxes in torso section (2 for LT, 2 for CT, 2 for RT)
Medium 'mechs get 9 boxes (3 for LT, 3 for CT, 3 for RT)
Heavies get 18 boxes (6 for LT, 6 for CT, 6 for RT in a 2x3 column per section)
Assaults get 27 boxes (9 for LT, 9 for CT, 9 for RT in a 2x6 or 3x3 column)

Each box has full armor value of the respective section... i.e. 42 pts in RT, 42 pts per box independent of each other. Damage one box--only that box goes down in armor value.

Internal structure is still the same as it is now. Result: Aim is rewarded, skill is rewarded, mech TTK goes up for the average player.

Watch and understand:


The scalable armor system will allow us to keep convergence.

I like the idea of B, but Leg Day bares its head.
Already, legging is a solid choice with a single ST hitbox.

You'd also need to add a few Leg hitboxes.

FupDup, on 09 February 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Is that mech wearing a hat?

Besides headgear, my first concern/thought/whatever is that the number of "new hitboxes" per weight class isn't distributed equally. I really don't think heavies and assaults need more advantages in that form (they are already popular enough, especially dem heavies) so I'd rather keep it consistent across the classes.

You could give Assaults 3, Lights 2, and whatever on a case by case basis.
Code the "SidesToDie" to take each segment as a Engine slot.

IS would still have 3 (of 6) on an Assault mech, but improves Assault isXL viability.
cXL...4? I guess. Lose an entire side, plus one more.

CT is not affected (unless they want it to be, then you add another few integers to SidesToDie)



Of course, lots of changes, lots of unintended consequences. You could give Mr Gargles more hitboxes than the TimberGod, meaning it could potentially be more survivable, or the PeaceDove more than the Whale (because Durability VS MOAR GUNS)

[Kristian Radoulov]

Mcgral18, on 09 February 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Of course, lots of changes, lots of unintended consequences.

Pandora's Box. :-/

I don't think gameplay is in a bad state at all right now. Things could be better, which is why I'm always bugging Russ to do another PTS round, but generally things are good. People can be, "Oh there goes Kristian ragging on the community again for a lack of skill thinking he's better than everyone", but I truly believe most of these "issues" people keep bringing up are a result of poor teamwork and awareness above all else.

Edited by Kristian Radoulov, 09 February 2016 - 10:38 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Mcgral18, on 09 February 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

I like the idea of B, but Leg Day bares its head.
Already, legging is a solid choice with a single ST hitbox.

You'd also need to add a few Leg hitboxes.

Of course, lots of changes, lots of unintended consequences. You could give Mr Gargles more hitboxes than the TimberGod, meaning it could potentially be more survivable, or the PeaceDove more than the Whale (because Durability VS MOAR GUNS)

Precisely to the variable hitboxes. Give Gargles and Summies some toughening™ if it is needed.

The legs are a good point. Legs could be divided in stripes...

Lights get one leg armor value (no stripes)
Mediums get two stripes
Heavies and assaults get four stripes (front, back, left, right)

Or hell, make mediums/heavies/assaults get the four stripes and leave lights at one or maybe give them left/right at most. Some folks have a hard enough time as it is with light 'mechs.

Or just triple leg armor values and leave them as is now. Same with arms if needed. It'd save on computational and implementation costs.

FupDup, on 09 February 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Is that mech wearing a hat?

Tranzor Z was my inspiration (Mazinger Z)...



I love 'mecha.



I grew up watching this. Watch the intro for the capsule landing!

Edited by Mister Blastman, 09 February 2016 - 05:38 PM.

[Dino Might]

Mister Blastman, on 09 February 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Cone of fire reduces skill, though.

I tried explaining to someone else in the other thread, to no avail, that this statement is false. Instead, please, Sir, explain to us how cone of fire reduces skill.

I am all ears.

[Tarogato]

This whole "many panels" thing is cool, it really brings the game closer to simulation of BattleTech without relying on dice rolls.

But.

If you thought people complained about laggy hitboxes as it is now, oh dear lordy...

[Mister Blastman]

Dino Might, on 09 February 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

I tried explaining to someone else in the other thread, to no avail, that this statement is false. Instead, please, Sir, explain to us how cone of fire reduces skill.

I am all ears.

Because it is random.

[Dino Might]

Mister Blastman, on 09 February 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

Because it is random.

I will give myself a random number with mean 5 and SD 0.02. I will give you a random number with mean 2 and SD 0.8. Whoever gets the larger random number wins. Guess who is going to be first to 5 wins.

Your argument is false. Still awaiting some analysis and/or reasoning. All I keep hearing is "I am right, because I am right." Tautology club is now in session...

[Mister Blastman]

Dino Might, on 09 February 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

I will give myself a random number with mean 5 and SD 0.02. I will give you a random number with mean 2 and SD 0.8. Whoever gets the larger random number wins. Guess who is going to be first to 5 wins.

Your argument is false. Still awaiting some analysis and/or reasoning. All I keep hearing is "I am right, because I am right." Tautology club is now in session...

I choose not to argue with you. I stand by my simple, yet elegant statement. Personal attacks are senseless and do not further your point. Have a nice day, Sir.

[Mead]

Mister Blastman, on 09 February 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

I choose not to argue with you. I stand by my simple, yet elegant statement. Personal attacks are senseless and do not further your point. Have a nice day, Sir.

I am honestly curious just exactly what part of that you think is a personal attack...

[Aresye]

MischiefSC, on 09 February 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

I would argue that perpetual pinpoint accuracy degrades the skill gap and drives mechanics to whatever build/weapons best exploit pinpoint precision. Given that the whole setting of the game, all the weapons, mech designs and fundamental mechanics of the game were built around not being accurate.

MechWarrior: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 2: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 2 Mercenaries: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 2 GBL: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 3: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 3 Pirate's Moon: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 4 Vengeance: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 4 Black Knight: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 4 Mercenaries: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior Living Legends: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence

The ONLY similarities MechWarrior has to BattleTech is the lore and setting. The whole argument of, "Well in BT the mechs weren't supposed to be this accurate," is a completely moot point because this isn't BattleTech, it's MechWarrior, and every official MechWarrior game that has ever been released has had perfect convergence. Hell, MWO is actually a step above most other MW games already simply by implementing 2 separate crosshairs for the arms and torso.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 09 February 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Is that mech wearing a hat?

Besides headgear, my first concern/thought/whatever is that the number of "new hitboxes" per weight class isn't distributed equally. I really don't think heavies and assaults need more advantages in that form (they are already popular enough, especially dem heavies) so I'd rather keep it consistent across the classes.

Would we also break legs into 6 total hitboxes?

If not then we just leg all the things all of the time.


How many hitboxes before it becomes problematic for things like hitreg?

[Mister Blastman]

Aresye, on 09 February 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

MechWarrior: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 2: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 2 Mercenaries: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 2 GBL: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 3: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 3 Pirate's Moon: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 4 Vengeance: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 4 Black Knight: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior 4 Mercenaries: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence
MechWarrior Living Legends: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence

The ONLY similarities MechWarrior has to BattleTech is the lore and setting. The whole argument of, "Well in BT the mechs weren't supposed to be this accurate," is a completely moot point because this isn't BattleTech, it's MechWarrior, and every official MechWarrior game that has ever been released has had perfect convergence. Hell, MWO is actually a step above most other MW games already simply by implementing 2 separate crosshairs for the arms and torso.

Be fair... Mechwarrior 2 might of had convergence of sorts... but all the weapons had travel time and the convergence wasn't perfect on your target.

The result was spread damage almost every time.

I know this because I played it extensively online as well as single player.

[SilentWolff]

Mead, on 09 February 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

It started off as a better conversation than the others, but I guess someone had to be the first to ****** it up. Congrats?

Truth to power my friend and the truth hurts.

[Alistair Winter]

Honestly, all these threads with people trying to come up with radical ideas that will change the game just makes me appreciate the status quo that much more. You can hate on Paul Inouye all day, but the dude comes off like Sir Isaac Newton compared to some people.

The only player-suggested idea I'm really interested in right now, is changing the heat scale, introducing TT-inspired heat penalties and adjusting heat values for lasers and ballistics. To everything else... no thanks.

Go PGI.

[Kuritaclan]

Mister Blastman, on 09 February 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

I have great aim! But I also recognize Battletech's armor system is incompatible with convergence.

Either...

a. Remove Convergence...



OR




Go to a scalable armor hitbox/plate system.

Light 'mechs get 6 boxes in torso section (2 for LT, 2 for CT, 2 for RT)
Medium 'mechs get 9 boxes (3 for LT, 3 for CT, 3 for RT)
Heavies get 18 boxes (6 for LT, 6 for CT, 6 for RT in a 2x3 column per section)
Assaults get 27 boxes (9 for LT, 9 for CT, 9 for RT in a 2x6 or 3x3 column)

Each box has full armor value of the respective section... i.e. 42 pts in RT, 42 pts per box independent of each other. Damage one box--only that box goes down in armor value.

Internal structure is still the same as it is now. Result: Aim is rewarded, skill is rewarded, mech TTK goes up for the average player.

Watch and understand:


The scalable armor system will allow us to keep convergence.

No new idea. And i support it. However it would need a complet new layer of internals (models). And I do not like the idea of diffrent panels - we have for a sidetorso 12 slots. Those 12 slots need to remain on a locust as on a atlas. However killing one particular gun or a engine like a Xl (3 slots in a sidetorso) is hard to manage even with pin point accuracy. Also scale of the components need to be overlooked.

See: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4365329 and the ongoing discussion about a deeper 3D Model of parts in the Mech body itself.

See: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5007924

Alistair Winter, on 09 February 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

Honestly, all these threads with people trying to come up with radical ideas that will change the game just makes me appreciate the status quo that much more. You can hate on Paul Inouye all day, but the dude comes off like Sir Isaac Newton compared to some people.

The only player-suggested idea I'm really interested in right now, is changing the heat scale, introducing TT-inspired heat penalties and adjusting heat values for lasers and ballistics. To everything else... no thanks.

Go PGI.

Your old convergence article does not gone well. The new one either. So you now (and others) blow it on pgi and people who like to have a better sim (with reasonable tech, not "bronze age" tech) instead.

Your and others convergence ww2 aircraft ****. Harr Harr. It is mind boggling.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 February 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[H I A S]

Dino Might, on 09 February 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

I will give myself a random number with mean 5 and SD 0.02. I will give you a random number with mean 2 and SD 0.8. Whoever gets the larger random number wins. Guess who is going to be first to 5 wins.

Your argument is false. Still awaiting some analysis and/or reasoning. All I keep hearing is "I am right, because I am right." Tautology club is now in session...

Have you ever played WoT?
Welcome to Campwarrior Online.

[Davers]

I've seen these threads about convergence, cones of fire, and heat scales since before Closed Beta. The same arguments and pics in every thread. But PGI has never expressed an interest in making any of these changes. Hell, PGI at least pretended to want the community to fix ECM. But they have never seemed to support any of these ideas, even the ones that were rather brilliantly conceived. People need to calm down and just focus on what PGI is interested in: what new mech they can sell us.

[Shae Starfyre]

Why are all examples based on a target that has a nice flat solid surface that is directly perpendicular to the incoming damage (except those arm lasers, but I figure that was for effective ranges of 10m)?

[Gas Guzzler]

thehiddenedge, on 09 February 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

I second this. There's almost no skill involved in pinpoint convergence. It's like a point and click adventure game.

"Oh, but, but.. you have to hold teh lazorz on the same component, teh skillz"

LRMs on the other hand are a weapons system only mastered by the most skillful master MechWarriors, amiright?

Its only a point and click adventure in the foothills of mount tryhard, where mechs of all sizes can be seen standing still or slowly meandering about. That's where the point and click adventure is.

If only the forums knew their left torso from the right torso in this game, then maybe the opinions and suggestions generated here might be worth listening to. If only.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 February 2016 - 01:50 PM.