704 replies to this topic

[Archangel.84]

Wolf's Dragoons are an explicit exception because of their origins. There's nothing edgy about the Highlander IIC if you're going to invoke the Dragoons, because of their own tech base. Unless you want to call the Dire Wolf and Kit Fox and Hellbringer "edge cases" as well.

Also: that same source lists the Mk.II as "IS General" and "Mercenary" after 3086, but never Clan General. Soooooo.... IS mech? Hell, after 3062 the Dire Wolf is listed as "IS General" in addition to "Clan General." Dire Wolves for IS factions!!!



I'll believe it when I see it about entire chassis from 3060+.

[Imperius]

Archangel.84, on 20 March 2016 - 07:32 PM, said:

Wolf's Dragoons are an explicit exception because of their origins. There's nothing edgy about the Highlander IIC if you're going to invoke the Dragoons, because of their own tech base. Unless you want to call the Dire Wolf and Kit Fox and Hellbringer "edge cases" as well.

Also: that same source lists the Mk.II as "IS General" and "Mercenary" after 3086, but never Clan General. Soooooo.... IS mech? Hell, after 3062 the Dire Wolf is listed as "IS General" in addition to "Clan General." Dire Wolves for IS factions!!!



I'll believe it when I see it about entire chassis from 3060+.

I gave him an IS group that used a mech in game that was clan. Was it a bit shaky? Yup, but still shot a hole through his straw man seems like he's gone.

As for the Chassis thing hopeful in April I'll get my Mad Cat MK II and I can stop coming to these forums again until single player starts to roll out

Edited by Imperius, 20 March 2016 - 07:43 PM.

[MadcatX]

CK16, on 19 March 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

You are right it is not the icon of the franchise but it is present in Mechwarrior titles and many do know its shape and the mech. I would say its fairly iconic. As much as the original Timberwolf or Warhammer or Atlas, no. But it is more so then many others. It is recognizable as a mech and from the Mechwarrior franchise. It was used by the franchise for its logo for awhile that is noteworthy.

I disagree. It only made it's first appearance in the MechWarrior franchise in MechWarrior 4 to my knowleddge. Perhaps it's more iconic on the tabletop scene, but this isn't TT Battletech, it's MechWarrior thus it's not iconic to the MechWarrior franchise, which was played by more then just Battletech fans. There's no gray area when it comes to labeling something iconic, it either is or it isn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to having a MadCat MK II obviously, But with a fast clan assault on the horizon, I would rather see a few more well-known mechs from the MW series (the rest of the unseen, Bushwacker, Annhilator, Uziel, etc.) to be next in line.

[CK16]

- I understand it was in use by both "factions" and would be actually nice to see this happen however...I see PGI taking the "easy" way out and giving it to the clans based on the tech, it makes more sense IMO to me and many many others who play Mechwarrior games, only a select few purist would even question this enough to complain if they went this way, nor with how the MK.II lands in the scheme of MW lore does it really ruin anything if it goes Clan in terms of this game..

- Clans could use this mech much more then IS, IS already has many viable assault mechs, not to mention much more mechs then clans.

- It still is a clan mech designed and built by Clan Diamond Shark, even says in the TRO designed to be sold to other clan's as well, what is stopping the clans from buying from Diamond Shark in this game? Lore? You mean lore wise like any IS pilot can buy and drop in a Mauler or Dragon despite being Kurita only? Diamond Shark lore wise would they deny a sale to Ghost Bear or Jade Falcon if they came to them wanting some? Also Clans did trade a lot right? They are a warrior society and different from IS, money means little to most of them, would they not be willing to trade for some Mad Cat Mk.II's? IS did not have access to the Mad Cat Mk.II it 3067 right? I am pretty confident clan's had first pick of them from 3062 onward if they so chose to get them, they were not restricted from buying them from Diamond Shark, far easier for Clan to Clan transactions then Clan to IS House (as reiterated by TRO "limited basis"). Yes it is a bit complicated, but the far easiest way is to align by tech and who built them. Even Nova Cat should be a Clan mech, cause if they add Clan Nova Cat they might attack Clans and align with IS houses, but they would need to run some mechs, it would be very illogical for them to drop in just IS mechs? No they would drop in Clan mechs same as other clans only. The way CW seems to be going CW3 will still be Clan vs IS but even now each sub faction can fight each other....they just do not cause of an honor code.

-It goes to IS general way off in the future in the Early Republic(3086 to 3100) which would that not give it to the Ghost Bears then as well? , all the while though during the Jihad (3068 to 3085) Wolf comes into the picture with them. Also there are max 3 IS factions that use them before this cause Federate Commonwealth is a single faction of Davion and Steiner, that they mention had them. While Clan Side it is Diamond Shark, Ice Hellion, and Nova Cat during the Civil War, it comes down to 3 Clan and 3 Inner Sphere.

I think we are all overthinking this, I don't think many in here on the mention of either Nova Cat or Mad Cat Mk.II automatically associate with IS house factions. Scarecrow you are in a minority on this subject and no anyone who thinks other wise is not an idiot, many of us can read and make our own decisions on what we read. The Lore purist know about everything and agree it should be for both, But I think many of them would say it isn't a totally out of line to make it just clan to keep it tech based instead of the complex world of faction alignment...

Edited by CK16, 20 March 2016 - 10:26 PM.

[CaptainScumBa11s]

Icon is a strong word. it only really was one in the dark age minis and we didnt get one with that shape (the first madcat was marked as a MKII but used the standard madcat model) till the later sets of minis. it was only a tiny bit of the title and we didnt even see one for a couple years. id be happy to see it as it means we can step out of this grave that we call 3053

Edited by CaptainScumBa11s, 20 March 2016 - 09:53 PM.

[Imperius]

MadcatX, on 20 March 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

I disagree. It only made it's first appearance in the MechWarrior franchise in MechWarrior 4 to my knowleddge. Perhaps it's more iconic on the tabletop scene, but this isn't TT Battletech, it's MechWarrior thus it's not iconic to the MechWarrior franchise, which was played by more then just Battletech fans. There's no gray area when it comes to labeling something iconic, it either is or it isn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to having a MadCat MK II obviously, But with a fast clan assault on the horizon, I would rather see a few more well-known mechs from the MW series (the rest of the unseen, Bushwacker, Annhilator, Uziel, etc.) to be next in line.

Well I'd rather the next clan mech be a good one, not some mech you played for 1-3 missions (bushwhacker? A failed design... First thing described on Sarna, nah no thanks)

[CK16]

What makes the Uziel more worthy than the Mk.II? Both I would say are just as iconic to MW4 and the Uziel actually came out later then the Mad Cat Mk.II.

Also, for sake of the clans, is it wrong to call it a Timberwolf Mk.II?

[MeiSooHaityu]

CK16, on 21 March 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

What makes the Uziel more worthy than the Mk.II? Both I would say are just as iconic to MW4 and the Uziel actually came out later then the Mad Cat Mk.II.

Also, for sake of the clans, is it wrong to call it a Timberwolf Mk.II?

I guess it was a Madcat MKII instead because the Clans sort of shunned the mech (although they did buy SOME Mad Cat MKIIs). Since clans kind of ignored the mech, Clan Diamond Shark (manufacturer) then turned to the IS for purchasing contracts (I know, Clanners selling to the IS, how f'ed up is that?). Think of the Mad Cat name as more of a marketing move since the IS knows the Timber Wolf as a Mad Cat.

P.S. Love the Uziel

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 21 March 2016 - 07:06 AM.

[CK16]

Yea, but just wondering if the clans would call it the Timberwolf MkII instead of Mad Cat, since the TRO is written only from the IS perspective they wouldn't really know this part.

Also I know Uziel is nice, but it's in the same boat as the Mk.II, and the Clans could use the Mk.II more than the IS with the Uziel.

[MeiSooHaityu]

CK16, on 21 March 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

Yea, but just wondering if the clans would call it the Timberwolf MkII instead of Mad Cat, since the TRO is written only from the IS perspective they wouldn't really know this part.

Also I know Uziel is nice, but it's in the same boat as the Mk.II, and the Clans could use the Mk.II more than the IS with the Uziel.

I think by 3066 the Clanners would be aware of the IS codenames for their mechs, so I'd imagine they would know the Timber Wolf and Mad Cat was the same mech. How many worlds had they captured, data they acquired, and IS pilots made Bondsmen by that point.

If the clanners overall ignored the mech and the IS were it's biggest purchaser by far (so Clan Diamond Shark would obviously pick a name familiar to the IS to market it by), I could see the Clanners referring to the mech by it's IS name.

Besides, the Clans probably view the Mad Cat MKII as an IS mech more than a Clan mech because of the IS contracts, so for all we know, they may resent the MKII and therefore have no problem referring to the mech by its barbarian name as a form of insult to the chassis. Clanners are kind of petty in that way .

[CK16]

True, btw I am not sure if there was contracts, usually contracts to me mean like extended production and planned delivery fitting an army out sorta thing. I see more right up front just buy, sell, and trade. There does seem to be some gray area here though lol. I just can't see this as just an IS mech, just a Clan mech that was sold to both sides, but Diamond shark was still only selling on a limited basis to the IS houses.

Edited by CK16, 21 March 2016 - 07:51 AM.

[Metus regem]

CK16, on 21 March 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

What makes the Uziel more worthy than the Mk.II? Both I would say are just as iconic to MW4 and the Uziel actually came out later then the Mad Cat Mk.II.

Also, for sake of the clans, is it wrong to call it a Timberwolf Mk.II?

You've got me on the Uziel, I really don't get the love for the thing, there is literately a better mech for doing everything it does, it's nothing but average all the way around, even the lore for the thing calls it average... I'm more of a Bushwacker kind of guy for newer mechs, low profile, narrow chassis and enough punch to make sure you don't want to ignore it...

Part of me, agrees with the lore for the Mk. II, that perhaps by naming it as such (Mad Cat Mk. II), Clan Diamond Shark never actually intended the Clans as customers for it, I mean if they did I think they would've gone with any of the fallowing:

Alpha Wolf
Blood Wolf
Cave Wolf
Nova Wolf
Timber Wolf Mk. II

Any of those names, or anything along those lines would've made sense if they really targeted Clans as buyers, but Mad Cat Mk. II makes more sense as IS target market, as Mad Cat was the code name given to the Timber Wolf by IS intelligence services....

MeiSooHaityu, on 21 March 2016 - 07:43 AM, said:

I think by 3066 the Clanners would be aware of the IS codenames for their mechs, so I'd imagine they would know the Timber Wolf and Mad Cat was the same mech. How many worlds had they captured, data they acquired, and IS pilots made Bondsmen by that point.

If the clanners overall ignored the mech and the IS were it's biggest purchaser by far (so Clan Diamond Shark would obviously pick a name familiar to the IS to market it by), I could see the Clanners referring to the mech by it's IS name.

Besides, the Clans probably view the Mad Cat MKII as an IS mech more than a Clan mech because of the IS contracts, so for all we know, they may resent the MKII and therefore have no problem referring to the mech by its barbarian name as a form of insult to the chassis. Clanners are kind of petty in that way .

Very true on Clans knowing IS code names for units, prime example is the Ebon Jaguar, it was so new, that even the Clans took to calling it by the IS name, Cauldron Born.

CK16, on 21 March 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

True, btw I am not sure if there was contracts, usually contracts to me mean like extended production and planned delivery fitting an army out sorta thing. I see more right up front just buy, sell, and trade. There does seem to be some gray area here though lol. I just can't see this as just an IS mech, just a Clan mech that was sold to both sides, but Diamond shark was still only selling on a limited basis to the IS houses.

When dealing with Government Contracts, even on a limited number of units, it is still a contract, with terms of delivery, payment and penalties for late payments or deliveries. My current line of work deals with these things with military branches of several governments around the world.

When it comes to military equipment, there will need to be spares, service and training as part of any contract. I don't see it being like a car lot, just walk up to the New Mech tent, and buy them one at a time.

[CK16]

Just curious though by lore any clan could purchase from Diamond Shark right? Or trade with in the Clan system? Trial of possessions ect . Clans didn't have to purchase like most IS houses would right?

Also let's not forget about the name, Ghost Bear Dominion also named a 2nd version of the Stormcrow as the Ryoken II, as they say to "embrace the IS location" but doesn't seem to be target to sell to IS ect.

Edited by CK16, 21 March 2016 - 09:08 AM.

[Metus regem]

CK16, on 21 March 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

Just curious though by lore any clan could purchase from Diamond Shark right? Or trade with in the Clan system? Trial of possessions ect . Clans didn't have to purchase like most IS houses would right?

Also let's not forget about the name, Ghost Bear Dominion also named a 2nd version of the Stormcrow as the Ryoken II, as they say to "embrace the IS location" but doesn't seem to be target to sell to IS ect.

The Clans did have an economy and banking system, the banking system was largely due to Clan Jade Falcon, yet no Clan save for Clan Diamond Shark (both before and after, named Sea Fox) allowed their merchants much freedom to do business.

So yes, Clans could purchase (as Nova Cat did), trade or conduct a trail of possession for any item. I'm sure IS houses could have done the same, as the IS houses proved they could operate by clan rules at the Great Refusal, yet purchase would most likely been what they were most comfortable with.


You are right about the Ghost Bear Dominion and the Ryoken II as well as Mad Dog II, yet it is very important to remember that unlike Diamond Shark, the Dominion was more focused on integration with the peoples of FRR over sales of military equipment. So during this time, it made sense to devlop new equipment to the rappidly growing military might of the Dominion by adding new Clan Spec. equipment for the former FRR military personnel to pilot, hence why the Royken II and Mad Dog II are Battle Mechs and not Omni-mechs.This occurred during a time that they were very isolationist, until elements of the DCMS did something stupid, fallowed closely by Clan Hells Horses doing something equally as stupid, attacking the Dominion. The next time the Dominion would be such roused to furry, would be at the hands of the Word of Blake (WoB), and the furry of the Dominion would be the push that Mr. Stone would need to make his alliance work at defeating the WoB.

[LastKhan]

Metus regem, on 21 March 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

roused to furry

hehe, you mean Fury. im sure the dominion didnt go and bought fur suits. xD

Edited by LastKhan, 21 March 2016 - 09:48 AM.

[Metus regem]

LastKhan, on 21 March 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

heh you mean Fury. im sure the dominion didnt go and buy fur suits. xD

I don't know about that... they were clans... I mean just look at this picture from the Grand Council chambers.....



But yes you are right, quick typing, and I missed they type-o.... or did I?

[LastKhan]

Metus regem, on 21 March 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

I don't know about that... they were clans... I mean just look at this picture from the Grand Council chambers.....



But yes you are right, quick typing, and I missed they type-o.... or did I?

Oh my jeebus..

This, this was the push that Stone needed to stop the WOB!

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

CK16, on 21 March 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

Yea, but just wondering if the clans would call it the Timberwolf MkII instead of Mad Cat, since the TRO is written only from the IS perspective they wouldn't really know this part.

Also I know Uziel is nice, but it's in the same boat as the Mk.II, and the Clans could use the Mk.II more than the IS with the Uziel.

No, the Clans would NOT call it the "Timberwolf MK_II" because it was created by a CLAN faction, and named it a MADCAT Mk_II.


Even the other Clans outside Diamond Shark call it a Madcat Mk_II









Edit: Are people actually arguing whether if the MK_II is an IS or Clan tech base? Are they ********?

Edited by 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie, 21 March 2016 - 04:39 PM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

ScarecrowES, on 20 March 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

Just trying to explain to you why the lore is what it is. Remember, YOU are the one who wants the mech because you loved in in MW4. The lore is what it is because they needed to come up with a way to make the mech make sense in that game.

I'm going to have to stop you there bud.

Imperius never played Mech 4. And I myself preferred the MW:LL and TRO artwork on the MK_II over the MW4 original version anyway.

You surely do have quite the imagination don't you? Yeah lets go with that.

Edited by 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie, 21 March 2016 - 04:47 PM.

[CK16]

I was able to add in some more variants that might work as well. Based of MW:LL variants.

Mad Cat Mk.II "Siege Engine" (MC-MK-II-SE)

CT Clan 360 XL JJ FF 14DHS
LT 1x Missile (1x LRM 20)
RT 1x Missile (1x LRM 20)
LA 2x Ballistic (2x UAC 5)
RA 2x Ballistic (2x UAC 5)


Mad Cat Mk.II B (MC-MK-II-B )

CT Clan 360 XL JJ FF 14DHS
LT 2x Missile (2x SSRM 6)
RT 2x Missile (2x SSRM 6)
LA 1x Ballistic (1x UAC 20)
RA 1x Ballistic (1x UAC 20)

Edited by CK16, 23 March 2016 - 09:44 AM.