112 replies to this topic

[quackdudey]

Nightshade24, on 23 February 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

Because they have one of the highest Damage to Ton ratio. They have one of the best range in game (highest max damage to range). They can have the highest damage potential (especially for their range). Can ave direct and indirect fire which allows you to easily become one of the strongest assets to your team, etc.

>LRMS
>Strong Asset to team

Pick one.

LRMS are the most easily counterable weapon platform in the game. Aswell as that, they have no way of focusing components. Damage is useless if it's spread, except for maybe padding c-bills and PSR.

I honestly classify LRM boats in the same category as troll mechs, as they have similar effectiveness.

Edited by quackdudey, 23 February 2016 - 10:41 PM.

[Nightshade24]

quackdudey, on 23 February 2016 - 10:40 PM, said:

>LRMS
>Strong Asset to team

Pick one.

LRMS are the most easily counterable weapon platform in the game. Aswell as that, they have no way of focusing components. Damage is useless if it's spread, except for maybe padding c-bills and PSR.

I honestly classify LRM boats in the same category as troll mechs, as they have similar effectiveness.

Every weapon is easily conterable

Let's say something very common in the meta... such as a Gauss rifle of Large pulse laser.

You know how to counter those? get into cover. Done. There is nothing he can do to hurt you now besides come over to you and than hit you from another angle. Which may not be the best idea if say you are a dual gauss jagermech and he is a Kingcrab with 4 x SRM 4's and 2 AC 20's and a few medium lasers... Especially if that different angle means getting right up and personal under 200 meters... however if he still doesn't want to say hello again, he goes around the cover as you just gone around.

Vola, it's literally impossible for you to take him out unless you are faster than him, have jumpjets in quantity on a lighter chassis. Or have a situation with your team that'll make it a bit easier and have someone else take him from the other side. (which is far from always being an option especially the quantity of both teams are low.)

The ultimate way to counter LRM's that can occur on every map? Not able to be detected via sensors. (typically losing LOS).

however even though this. typically a no go zone for many many weapons as if you can't see the enemy you can't hit him. (Unless you got LRM's where if you still got a lock you can hit him). However unlike other weapons the LRM'er has many many counters to this counter.

TAG (able to target ECM mechs)
NARC (able to target mechs after LOS is broken / disrupt ECM)
BAP (disrupt ECM at a closer range)
UAV (ultimate counter, only counter is arm mounted direct fire weapons that can aim high enough and hit... which isn't always the easiest thing to do as the UAV can be well hidden)
Spotters (someone, not just a light mech, keeping a lock... could be that 1 annoying raven 800 meters away or that 1 atlas 50 meters in front of your face)

Can any of these help out a guy who has a gauss rifle and the enemy isn't at LOS? Nope.
Sure LRM's has many counters (ECM, Breaking LOS with enemy mechs, being in min range, etc). However as there are dozen ways to counter an LRM, There are dozens of ways to counter those.
Meanwhile all other weapons the only real counter is the brute force method of just getting in there and evading the enemy cover and losing your own cover in the process (or friendly forces support, or simply being vulnerable charging 900 meters at at an enemy on alpine peaks, etc).

LRM's damage spreads, sure. Most of the damage goes for the CT. (especially when using smaller LRM's where on larger mechs nearly all hit the CT.) BUt does it really matter to be 100% accurate? with most direct fire weapons people fail to ALWAYS hit the location targeted, mainly because mechs simply do not stand very up close to you and do nothing or do not move. People role their armour, they get into angles that are awkward for you, or are at ranges that are hard to hit...
You fire your ER Large laser on an enemy at range- yay congratulations you hit him! But guess what, you hit every single component on him besides his right arm and head and you got his left arm slightly more damage than everything else but you were not trying to aim their specifically. In this case LRM's are more accurate than most energy weapons at range because at least they do not hit 6+ components randomly . However ballistics (ie gauss) is a different story as you can't spread that 15 damage. That's an acception.

However if you deem any weapon that spreads before delivering their full damage OR can not do serious damage without spreading I guess you must find many weapons in MW: O trollish because in this boat you got...

Small laser
Medium laser
Large laser
ER large laser
Cl ER Small laser
Cl ER Medium laser
Cl ER Large laser
Cl ER PPC
Small pulse laser
Medium pulse laser
Large pulse laser
Cl Small pulse laser
Cl Medium pulse laser
Cl Large pulse laser
Flamer
Cl Flamer
SRM 2
SRM 4
SRM 6
Cl SRM 2
Cl SRM 4
Cl SRM 6
SSRM 2
Cl SSRM 2
Cl SSRM 4
Cl SSRM 6
LRM 5
LRM 10
LRM 15
LRM 20
Cl LRM 5
Cl LRM 10
Cl LRM 15
Cl LRM 20
AC 2
AC 5
UAC 5
Cl UAC 2
Cl UAC 5
Cl UAC 10
Cl UAC 20
LBX 10
Cl LBX 2
Cl LBX 5
Cl LBX 10
Cl LBX 20
Machine gun
Cl Machine gun


Huh... the only weapons left is the AC 10, AC 20, Gauss rifle, Clan Gauss Rifle, PPC, and ER PPC.

I guess MW: O should be renamed to Trollwarrior: Online with this logic.


And now for damage: Spreaded damage isn't useless, it amplifies weak points and causes immense distress to the enemy mech. Even if an LRM 20 doesn't do all 20 damage to the CT, it still does enough damage to the critical torso area than any weapon in game excluding the SRM's, AC 20, and Gauss rifle. (or clan ER PPC). And when they damage other sections it instead of killing a mech cripples it... oh yea, most mechs do not mount a single LRM 20 unless it's for multirange potential (Atlas, Highlander, Marauder, etc) or a light mech (Raven...). The average medium. ehavy mech has dual LRM 15's, more accurate than 20's and higher fire rate as well as higher overall payload, Meanwhile an assault can pack 4 x LRM 15's or a few 20's and some smaller 5's.

However this is obviously not the best weapon for a 1 vs 1, nor is it the best weapon to have isolated.
This is where the IS doctrines and Clan doctrines become rather clear in lore... the inner sphere do what is effective and have roles / jobs/ objectives for each mech to do. Kind of like Chess. You need every piece to work together to be the most effective. The LRM boats are support mechs and LRM's on other chassis (such as Centurion, Atlas, highlander, Shadowhawk, etc) are there to support each other when they are outside of effective range.
The Clans believing in their new reformed doctrines wants practically everything to be able ot do a 1 vs 1 with it's respective oponent and often have insane close range fire potential but all can reach range.

This is why mechs like the Naga, Bowman, etc are often shunned and why "LRM boats" like the Mad Dog has Large pulse and medium pulse lasers instead of more ammo. Or why mechs with LRM's often have higher firepower in non LRM weapons such as the Timberwolf. Direwolf, Warhawk, etc... and clans like Clan Goliath Scorpion completely shun and avoid using LRM's and SRM's. However it was clear when Natasha Kerensky brought a fully fledge LRM boat into a trial and won that shook the clan Idealology on LRM's and acted as a Catalyst in the change of mindsets... causing the Clans by the late 3060's to be barely recognisable to their former selves.

Similar applies to MW: O, Actually quite strongly. However most people do not like the ideas of having an LRM 15 or 20 on their highlander/ atlas/ kingcrab/ shadowhawk/ marauder/ timberwolf/ summoner/ what ever because most people can't be bothered to have more than 2 keys assigned to weapons. A little bit of a shame...

In terms of MW: O and how LRM boats performed. In a team (not a random 12 bafoons who do not care at all if they are shooting at blue or red marked units and just want to get the glory lerrooooy kill before disconnecting after they die and going to the next game) is a very critical mech and simply 1 LRM boat with 1 Lock can tip the scale of battle in their favour. Me being a user of LRM boats, fighting with LRM boats, and fighting against LRM boats I know this quite well, it's why in the days of 8 vs 8 that lights soul duty was to kill the LRM boats immediately before it does the damage to end the game for them.
(due to it being 12 vs 12 now, co ordination is harder overall and the percentage of effect that 1 mech has is dropped. as there are 12 mechs now and not 8 on each team).
However due to the fact that LRM's is one of the highest skill weapons in game to master (not to grasp the idea of how to use and fire, but to master it and use well) lots of people just look and base LRM's on the lower end of the spectrum of users who just sit back in their Stalker or battlemaster with nothing but LRM's and keep firing until they die or run out of ammo. Not caring if the enemy they fire at are behind anti LRM cover (tall buildings/ rocks) or what have you...


LRM's biggest weakness however is their potential to kill light mechs. THey are one of the least effective weapons to use against lights while lasers are some of the best. However every weapon has their strenghts and weaknesses.

[P]

do Clanners speak abbreviations? or they just speak it in full?

[Nightshade24]

P, on 23 February 2016 - 11:58 PM, said:

do Clanners speak abbreviations? or they just speak it in full?

I think it's more of a personal thing. But I do know most clans shorten things down quite a lot, not abbreviations however. ie:

Aff = Affirmative
Neg = Negative.

etc...

However clans never really used the common IS designation for mechs. They do not have the cyphers and stuff, they just say the mech (ie Timberwolf) and than the alternate configeration... ie Timberwolf A, Prime, C, etc.

They do not go say AS7-D-DDC or HGN-723b, etc.

[PFC Carsten]

Nice piece of prose, reminding us all of what's missing in MWO: Tactical gameplay, traps, usable environment besides annoying trees, real air support and much much more.

But at least we can preorder the Kodiak for yet another mindless slaughtering over meaningless maps.

Please PGI, create a game, not mech packs.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 24 February 2016 - 03:06 AM.

[quackdudey]

Nightshade24, on 23 February 2016 - 11:18 PM, said:

Every weapon is easily conterable

Let's say something very common in the meta... such as a Gauss rifle of Large pulse laser.

You know how to counter those? get into cover. Done. There is nothing he can do to hurt you now besides come over to you and than hit you from another angle. Which may not be the best idea if say you are a dual gauss jagermech and he is a Kingcrab with 4 x SRM 4's and 2 AC 20's and a few medium lasers... Especially if that different angle means getting right up and personal under 200 meters... however if he still doesn't want to say hello again, he goes around the cover as you just gone around.

Vola, it's literally impossible for you to take him out unless you are faster than him, have jumpjets in quantity on a lighter chassis. Or have a situation with your team that'll make it a bit easier and have someone else take him from the other side. (which is far from always being an option especially the quantity of both teams are low.)

The ultimate way to counter LRM's that can occur on every map? Not able to be detected via sensors. (typically losing LOS).

however even though this. typically a no go zone for many many weapons as if you can't see the enemy you can't hit him. (Unless you got LRM's where if you still got a lock you can hit him). However unlike other weapons the LRM'er has many many counters to this counter.

TAG (able to target ECM mechs)
NARC (able to target mechs after LOS is broken / disrupt ECM)
BAP (disrupt ECM at a closer range)
UAV (ultimate counter, only counter is arm mounted direct fire weapons that can aim high enough and hit... which isn't always the easiest thing to do as the UAV can be well hidden)
Spotters (someone, not just a light mech, keeping a lock... could be that 1 annoying raven 800 meters away or that 1 atlas 50 meters in front of your face)

Can any of these help out a guy who has a gauss rifle and the enemy isn't at LOS? Nope.
Sure LRM's has many counters (ECM, Breaking LOS with enemy mechs, being in min range, etc). However as there are dozen ways to counter an LRM, There are dozens of ways to counter those.
Meanwhile all other weapons the only real counter is the brute force method of just getting in there and evading the enemy cover and losing your own cover in the process (or friendly forces support, or simply being vulnerable charging 900 meters at at an enemy on alpine peaks, etc).

LRM's damage spreads, sure. Most of the damage goes for the CT. (especially when using smaller LRM's where on larger mechs nearly all hit the CT.) BUt does it really matter to be 100% accurate? with most direct fire weapons people fail to ALWAYS hit the location targeted, mainly because mechs simply do not stand very up close to you and do nothing or do not move. People role their armour, they get into angles that are awkward for you, or are at ranges that are hard to hit...
You fire your ER Large laser on an enemy at range- yay congratulations you hit him! But guess what, you hit every single component on him besides his right arm and head and you got his left arm slightly more damage than everything else but you were not trying to aim their specifically. In this case LRM's are more accurate than most energy weapons at range because at least they do not hit 6+ components randomly . However ballistics (ie gauss) is a different story as you can't spread that 15 damage. That's an acception.

However if you deem any weapon that spreads before delivering their full damage OR can not do serious damage without spreading I guess you must find many weapons in MW: O trollish because in this boat you got...

Small laser
Medium laser
Large laser
ER large laser
Cl ER Small laser
Cl ER Medium laser
Cl ER Large laser
Cl ER PPC
Small pulse laser
Medium pulse laser
Large pulse laser
Cl Small pulse laser
Cl Medium pulse laser
Cl Large pulse laser
Flamer
Cl Flamer
SRM 2
SRM 4
SRM 6
Cl SRM 2
Cl SRM 4
Cl SRM 6
SSRM 2
Cl SSRM 2
Cl SSRM 4
Cl SSRM 6
LRM 5
LRM 10
LRM 15
LRM 20
Cl LRM 5
Cl LRM 10
Cl LRM 15
Cl LRM 20
AC 2
AC 5
UAC 5
Cl UAC 2
Cl UAC 5
Cl UAC 10
Cl UAC 20
LBX 10
Cl LBX 2
Cl LBX 5
Cl LBX 10
Cl LBX 20
Machine gun
Cl Machine gun


Huh... the only weapons left is the AC 10, AC 20, Gauss rifle, Clan Gauss Rifle, PPC, and ER PPC.

I guess MW: O should be renamed to Trollwarrior: Online with this logic.


And now for damage: Spreaded damage isn't useless, it amplifies weak points and causes immense distress to the enemy mech. Even if an LRM 20 doesn't do all 20 damage to the CT, it still does enough damage to the critical torso area than any weapon in game excluding the SRM's, AC 20, and Gauss rifle. (or clan ER PPC). And when they damage other sections it instead of killing a mech cripples it... oh yea, most mechs do not mount a single LRM 20 unless it's for multirange potential (Atlas, Highlander, Marauder, etc) or a light mech (Raven...). The average medium. ehavy mech has dual LRM 15's, more accurate than 20's and higher fire rate as well as higher overall payload, Meanwhile an assault can pack 4 x LRM 15's or a few 20's and some smaller 5's.

However this is obviously not the best weapon for a 1 vs 1, nor is it the best weapon to have isolated.
This is where the IS doctrines and Clan doctrines become rather clear in lore... the inner sphere do what is effective and have roles / jobs/ objectives for each mech to do. Kind of like Chess. You need every piece to work together to be the most effective. The LRM boats are support mechs and LRM's on other chassis (such as Centurion, Atlas, highlander, Shadowhawk, etc) are there to support each other when they are outside of effective range.
The Clans believing in their new reformed doctrines wants practically everything to be able ot do a 1 vs 1 with it's respective oponent and often have insane close range fire potential but all can reach range.

This is why mechs like the Naga, Bowman, etc are often shunned and why "LRM boats" like the Mad Dog has Large pulse and medium pulse lasers instead of more ammo. Or why mechs with LRM's often have higher firepower in non LRM weapons such as the Timberwolf. Direwolf, Warhawk, etc... and clans like Clan Goliath Scorpion completely shun and avoid using LRM's and SRM's. However it was clear when Natasha Kerensky brought a fully fledge LRM boat into a trial and won that shook the clan Idealology on LRM's and acted as a Catalyst in the change of mindsets... causing the Clans by the late 3060's to be barely recognisable to their former selves.

Similar applies to MW: O, Actually quite strongly. However most people do not like the ideas of having an LRM 15 or 20 on their highlander/ atlas/ kingcrab/ shadowhawk/ marauder/ timberwolf/ summoner/ what ever because most people can't be bothered to have more than 2 keys assigned to weapons. A little bit of a shame...

In terms of MW: O and how LRM boats performed. In a team (not a random 12 bafoons who do not care at all if they are shooting at blue or red marked units and just want to get the glory lerrooooy kill before disconnecting after they die and going to the next game) is a very critical mech and simply 1 LRM boat with 1 Lock can tip the scale of battle in their favour. Me being a user of LRM boats, fighting with LRM boats, and fighting against LRM boats I know this quite well, it's why in the days of 8 vs 8 that lights soul duty was to kill the LRM boats immediately before it does the damage to end the game for them.
(due to it being 12 vs 12 now, co ordination is harder overall and the percentage of effect that 1 mech has is dropped. as there are 12 mechs now and not 8 on each team).
However due to the fact that LRM's is one of the highest skill weapons in game to master (not to grasp the idea of how to use and fire, but to master it and use well) lots of people just look and base LRM's on the lower end of the spectrum of users who just sit back in their Stalker or battlemaster with nothing but LRM's and keep firing until they die or run out of ammo. Not caring if the enemy they fire at are behind anti LRM cover (tall buildings/ rocks) or what have you...


LRM's biggest weakness however is their potential to kill light mechs. THey are one of the least effective weapons to use against lights while lasers are some of the best. However every weapon has their strenghts and weaknesses.

You have multiple huge holes in your logic that you have failed to account for. Every counter for direct fire weapons is also a counter for LRMs.

Twisting? Check.

LOS denial? Check.

The TTK on LRMs is also completely atrocious. No LRM boats have a TTK under 10 seconds, while many other mechs can kill in under half that. Travel time also has to be accounted for.

You also completely misunderstood the differances between pinpoint and spread damage. Effectively, the only weapons that uncontrollably spread damage are LRMS and SSRMs. All other weapons in the game can be delivered with almost pinpoint accuracy, if within their effective range.

Also, this 'stress' you mention is usually counterproductive. I know for a fact that the more damage my mech has sustained, the more I think about playing properly to minimize my damage taken. Either way, only incompetent players get stressed (or take considerable damage from) LRMS at all anyways. Sure, there may be 10 or so extra damage in my weak point, but not enough to tip the scale; at all.

Aswell as that, LRM players think they're actually helping their team, which I think is the most disgusting thing possible. It's much more helpful in the front lines using productive weapon systems and taking damage.

Thinking LRMs actually take skill to use is also, to many extents, wrong. You lock, find a place to fire so the LRMS don't hit structures, and fire. Not much more than that. The only difference between a 'skilled' LRM player while an average player is the amount of thinking going into it, by a marginal amount. Both are still potatoes, although different flavours.

I agree with some of what you said, mainly the bit about every weapon having strengths; unfortunatelyfor LRMs, their strengths are greatly outweighed by their many weaknesses and counters.

They are not the least effective weapon against lights, they are the least effective weapon in the game, period.

Edited by quackdudey, 24 February 2016 - 07:03 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

Going to be an interesting mech to try to counter. I think it'll be like the KGC or Gladiator: target that RT and profit, but...it's a pretty scary mech (on paper, at least).

[Kshat]

chewie, on 23 February 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

I went for it. this is what i got.

Warhammer, rifleman, archer, maraduer, i bought all the collecters and hero add on.
$55 for 5 mechs on ea pack.
Kodiak, i just got the normal pack, the hero and the reinforcements (6 mechs)
$50 for 6 mechs.

I wasnt paying the extra $20 for 1 special variant mech (and of course all other bits that come with to make the value up) by getting the collector pack.

That simple enough?

Bearing in mind, I then have to convert it to GBP so i paid
For the Kodi packs, £36.46
For the Archer, £38.99
For the RFL, £38.20
For the Wham, £37.53
For the Mad, £37.43

You're mixing things up here.
Your "five" mechs include the spare mech from buying the collector's edition.
Whereas with not buying the Kodiak's CE but instead going for the reinforcements, you'll get six different mechs.
If you forsake the reinforcements and instead go for the CE, the price structure is completely identical to the other packages.
Not talking about the higher value since in MW:O mechs with a higher weight cost more on a linear scale. But these packs are weightneutral priced.

[chewie]

And, you've confused what I was saying.

I could have gone the same route as with the is mechs, any got 5 for $55, but I ignored the (S) variant and got the reinforcement pack so I'm getting 6 for $50.

That's all I was ever alluding to.

[Luscious Dan]

<edit> Maybe I missed the point of your big post or something, I dunno. I just don't see why we're really getting into LRMs here, they are pretty niche and I think most of us agree to that. *shrugs* </edit>

@Nightshade24, I respect where you're coming from with the fluff, I really do. But I can't really support the argument that LRMs are a strong component of MWO gameplay. I don't know if you're arguing for this anymore, but hey you wrote a bunch so I did too for some reason.

If you go purely on practical considerations, the LRMs aren't in a good place right now. As you say, it requires a master, if not a goddamn wizard, to use them effectively. That's not a sign of a good weapon system.

And saying that everything outside gauss, PPC and IS-autocannons is spread damage isn't fair. If you're hitting 5+ components per laser shot, that's a problem with the pilot, not the weapon. Recognize your ranges better, or get a better mouse/different sensitivity settings. I'm merely "above average" at this game, not remotely a competitive play kind of person, and I don't tend to shoot people in the feet when I'm aiming for a CT.

LRMs in tabletop are nice because they provide groupings of 5 damage points to multiple areas. When all mechs have half the armor/structure to begin with, no quirks, and many mechs operate at criminally low levels of armor (e.g., Shadow Hawk 2D with 4.5 tons of armor on a 55 ton chassis), those groupings of 5 damage will add up fast and expose components. In addition, mechs with open components hate anything that clusters because hits to the engine will kill them even without reducing the CT to zero health.

In MWO, the vast majority of the time, LRMs are suppression weapons at best. It's rare that they actually do the same amount of work as a direct fire mech. And to be honest, an AC5 buzzsaw mech or a really effective gauss/PPC sniper can cause the same suppression without jumping through the hoops and countering the counters. If you know you're gonna take 40+ CT damage the second you break cover, that's as effective at changing behavior as LRM barrages are.

LRMs are in a brutal place in terms of game balance because if they were implemented fully, with all the spotter/NARC/TAG synergies etc., they could be devastatingly powerful and ruin the fun factor of the game. The same with Clan ER PPCs, they are devastating when they do 15 pinpoint damage each without using much weight or having ammo considerations. A Warhawk would shred things if it could alpha reliably without splash damage or ghost heat. They have to be nerfed down for the game to be playable, and you can certainly argue that they are a little too weak at the moment, but changes can't be taken lightly.

Ultimately, LRMs (and to a lesser extent, Streaks) are the only weapon in the game playing by tabletop rules. That makes it a lot harder to keep up with the built in Targeting Computers and other effects that a good pilot is essentially bringing to the game when using any other weapon.

Edited by Luscious Dan, 24 February 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[3rdstorm]

This one really begs for melee doesnt it. whens the hatchet melee patch launching? ~s

Looks great well done by the design team.

[pacifica812]

No assaults in my hangar ....

... so far

This could be the first one ...

...


... ahhh, the temptation, the sweet temptation ....

wraping itself around my thoughts ...

Edited by pacifica812, 24 February 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[Dagorlad13]

Ozealot, on 24 February 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

So the Kodiak doesn't get faction content according to the FAQ. Why? Because it's the Totem Mech of Clan Ghost Bear? So why does the Totem Mech of Clan Smoke Jaguar, the Ebon Jaguar have faction content then? I want to paint my Kodiak with my Clan colors please. Is there any way this issue can be adressed?

I am saddened that the Great Kodiak will be desecrated by non-Ghost Bear paint jobs period.

[Nauht]

Grrawrrrrr... Bear says take yet another LRM discussion to another thread.... or make Bear angrrry.

Bear will MASCrush you!!! Rawrrrrrgrrr

[Dagorlad13]

Ozealot, on 24 February 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

I am saddened that the Great Ebon Jaguar is desecrated by non-Smoke Jaguar paint jobs, period.

Touché

[P]

Dawnstealer, on 24 February 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

Going to be an interesting mech to try to counter. I think it'll be like the KGC or Gladiator: target that RT and profit, but...it's a pretty scary mech (on paper, at least).

how can they be scary

[Nightshade24]

quackdudey, on 24 February 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

You have multiple huge holes in your logic that you have failed to account for. Every counter for direct fire weapons is also a counter for LRMs.

Twisting? Check.

LOS denial? Check.

The TTK on LRMs is also completely atrocious. No LRM boats have a TTK under 10 seconds, while many other mechs can kill in under half that. Travel time also has to be accounted for.

You also completely misunderstood the differances between pinpoint and spread damage. Effectively, the only weapons that uncontrollably spread damage are LRMS and SSRMs. All other weapons in the game can be delivered with almost pinpoint accuracy, if within their effective range.

Also, this 'stress' you mention is usually counterproductive. I know for a fact that the more damage my mech has sustained, the more I think about playing properly to minimize my damage taken. Either way, only incompetent players get stressed (or take considerable damage from) LRMS at all anyways. Sure, there may be 10 or so extra damage in my weak point, but not enough to tip the scale; at all.

Aswell as that, LRM players think they're actually helping their team, which I think is the most disgusting thing possible. It's much more helpful in the front lines using productive weapon systems and taking damage.

Thinking LRMs actually take skill to use is also, to many extents, wrong. You lock, find a place to fire so the LRMS don't hit structures, and fire. Not much more than that. The only difference between a 'skilled' LRM player while an average player is the amount of thinking going into it, by a marginal amount. Both are still potatoes, although different flavours.

I agree with some of what you said, mainly the bit about every weapon having strengths; unfortunatelyfor LRMs, their strengths are greatly outweighed by their many weaknesses and counters.

They are not the least effective weapon against lights, they are the least effective weapon in the game, period.

Twisting doesn't fully divert damage of a mech away from it's CT, the CT will still be hit unless you are completely facing the other way (Rear armour) and that armour will not last very long. This is due to the spread of LRM's and the nature of coming from above (some flat top mechs like king crab will still get hit heavily up top by LRM's)

Line of Sight denial to the person firing does make things complicated for all weapons it's true, however unlike a large laser, Gauss rifle, etc. An LRM can still fire and deal damage to a target that is in LOS of a UAV or another friendly mech. [as I said earlier, many counters to the counters with LRM's]

TTK of LRM's are bad as they are not made to kill. LRM boats are not there to kill. They are there to support and assist. It's far easier to kill a mech with an LRM boat firing at it than without. As the damage of the LRM exposes weaknesses of where the LRM's got concentrated as well as shake the enmy overall and destroy his weapons. The LRM does not have a good TTK, but it massively decreases the TTK for it's fellow team mates.

I would like to see you have a 100% accuracy with a MG or LBX btw... or a UAC 20 on a target who is alive and not brain dead...

Most people when they get thrown at with lots of LRM's often panic and loose it. They can't see the enemy anymore and keep rocking so they can't see the target or shoot back at the target. For you maybe it's an insentive to get your game face on. for most not really. More like the opposite. Props to you for having a unique pilot ability if you were a Mechcommander 2 user.

LRM users are definetely helping. It beats being afk for 15 minutes anyway and they pull in a critical role in BT that no other weapon can do (until arrow artillery system, Long tom canon, or Mech Motar 2, 4, 6, and 8 is added, or ATM 3, 6, 9, 12. )
You know why? First of all- not everyone can get to the front line, they can be to slow, or do not have the potential to go full out SRM brawler or what have you, and to top it off. The front lines as I said get filled. You can't get in the front lines without blocking other peoples shots. An LRM boat can fire without being in the front. That is pivitol to the damage outcome of the first few major engagements. Instead of say having 6 people shoot 6 people and the other 12 people of both teams can't do anything besides ruin the other 6 peoples days. We can have 6 people shot 6 people with the aid of 2-6 LRM capable Mechs also laying down fire. Which is quite an improvement.
This goes just like in IRL and in BT... let's use IRL for an example through the ages...

back in the day of spears and clubs, throwing spears and slings were used to hit people as they are coming in to attack with their melee. as well as to attack people in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th ,etc lines when they are engaged in melee thus crippling the endurance of the charge.
In the days of Swords, Maces, and archers. An Archer would fire in mass volleys using arrows to hit and kill people while safely secure behind their melee frontal lines allowing them to support them and giving them more man power over the enemy.
... as does a crowbowman...
In the days of Muskets . They would go in a line and fire at enemy units before switching to melee weapons when they got close (more describes a skirmisher or mixed range build than an LRM boat)
In the days of canons, howitzers, motars, and machine guns. An Artillery, Self propelled gun, Assault gun tank or tank destroyer would fire long range shells over to enemy tanks while the closer (optimally) ranged light, medium, and heavy tanks do the close range work.
Or the howitzer equiped units give close support to infantry and such.
or Long range katyushas fire behind the front lines and annihilate the enemy possitions so that the friendly rifleman can proceed forward or break a stale mate...

etc.

In BT it is as valid here as anywhere. Using long range units to support close range units when no other kind of unit can is a massive key to the battlefield and one that has cost many problems in the past... such as 1850's when the pro-emperor japanese (with western guns and weapons) were up against the pro-shogunate forces (who are more traditional), The bbattles are heavily in favour of the pro-emperor armies as they had the range assistance from rifles, gattling guns, canons, ships, etc . while the other forces have the more obselete archers at best.

If they are the least effective weapon for you. Great. Not my problem you can't use LRM's. Keep that to yourself and for those who can use it will use it.

[Nightshade24]

Luscious Dan, on 24 February 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

<edit> Maybe I missed the point of your big post or something, I dunno. I just don't see why we're really getting into LRMs here, they are pretty niche and I think most of us agree to that. *shrugs* </edit>

@Nightshade24, I respect where you're coming from with the fluff, I really do. But I can't really support the argument that LRMs are a strong component of MWO gameplay. I don't know if you're arguing for this anymore, but hey you wrote a bunch so I did too for some reason.

If you go purely on practical considerations, the LRMs aren't in a good place right now. As you say, it requires a master, if not a goddamn wizard, to use them effectively. That's not a sign of a good weapon system.

And saying that everything outside gauss, PPC and IS-autocannons is spread damage isn't fair. If you're hitting 5+ components per laser shot, that's a problem with the pilot, not the weapon. Recognize your ranges better, or get a better mouse/different sensitivity settings. I'm merely "above average" at this game, not remotely a competitive play kind of person, and I don't tend to shoot people in the feet when I'm aiming for a CT.

LRMs in tabletop are nice because they provide groupings of 5 damage points to multiple areas. When all mechs have half the armor/structure to begin with, no quirks, and many mechs operate at criminally low levels of armor (e.g., Shadow Hawk 2D with 4.5 tons of armor on a 55 ton chassis), those groupings of 5 damage will add up fast and expose components. In addition, mechs with open components hate anything that clusters because hits to the engine will kill them even without reducing the CT to zero health.

In MWO, the vast majority of the time, LRMs are suppression weapons at best. It's rare that they actually do the same amount of work as a direct fire mech. And to be honest, an AC5 buzzsaw mech or a really effective gauss/PPC sniper can cause the same suppression without jumping through the hoops and countering the counters. If you know you're gonna take 40+ CT damage the second you break cover, that's as effective at changing behavior as LRM barrages are.

LRMs are in a brutal place in terms of game balance because if they were implemented fully, with all the spotter/NARC/TAG synergies etc., they could be devastatingly powerful and ruin the fun factor of the game. The same with Clan ER PPCs, they are devastating when they do 15 pinpoint damage each without using much weight or having ammo considerations. A Warhawk would shred things if it could alpha reliably without splash damage or ghost heat. They have to be nerfed down for the game to be playable, and you can certainly argue that they are a little too weak at the moment, but changes can't be taken lightly.

Ultimately, LRMs (and to a lesser extent, Streaks) are the only weapon in the game playing by tabletop rules. That makes it a lot harder to keep up with the built in Targeting Computers and other effects that a good pilot is essentially bringing to the game when using any other weapon.

@Edit: Some guy mentioned LRM kodiak build. I commented on ways to improve it. Random anti-LRM poster came up and started bashing on LRM's and it all spiraled down from there. To be honest I would have just wish it was left at there or if it did continue it would be a discussion on how to improve this lads' LRM Kodiak. However LRM's are far from Niche.
What is a Niche is a Flamer: it's very specific and specialised in it's job and practically only has 1 real purpose. Machine guns nearly exclusively a low heat, low ton crit hunter, etc.

LRM's on the other hand are usefull on a number of builds: Scout's (ie: Raven RVN-3M, Kitfox alt.config.D, Hellspawn, etc). Skirmishers (Shadowhawk, etc). LRM boats (Mad Dog, Catapult, Trebuchet, etc). Brawler (Centurion, etc). and can assist well in the builds for a Juggernaut (Atlas, Kingcrab, etc), Sniper (Warhawk, Marauder, etc). using stock mechs as an example to prevent confusing by randomly listing builds and describing their playstyle however if you really need that I am making a thread (a huge thread) about MW4 builds in MW: O and optimized as best as it can for MW: O. Some of which include the builds mentioned above if you really need it to be very descriptive.
However even excluding the builds and roles they can be used in long to medium range, direct or indirect fire, etc...
Also if you consider it niche due to the fact only 1 weapon (LRM's / Cl LRM's) have a functionality like this than this will change as in a few years we're getting the ATM's. etc... etc. And the weapons like Streak LRM's, Arrow IV's, etc have similar functionality. However this is me nit picking now. sorry.


Well, I do believe it's a critical part of MW: O, as the reasons in the above post. Sure it can't be ran solo, and there are many other pillars that make MW: O MW: O, however having this game without LRM's is just not the same. It falls under a rather niche role in the grand schemes of things in terms of frequenzy and quantity. Only the clan and IS LRM 5, 10, 15, and 20 does what it does... SRM's dont', large lasers dont', gauss doesn't either. however the LRM's are good for what they are, can be fitted on any weight class and in BT has been fitted on 15 ton mechs to 135 ton mechs. Fitted on armoured cars, tanks, helicopters, naval battleships, space warships, and infantry and battle armour. They have it's place in MW: O and it is qutie a viable weapon rather to boat or use for support. So yes it's critical. Having not a single LRM boat on your team is a disadvantage most of the time. However having not a single mech who has any ranged direct weapons or brawling capabilities or having any lights is also a disadvantage. Many other things are important too.

Mastery does not imply the weapon is poor. The most leathal AND infamous weapons and machines of war in history have required the most skill to use.

Ranging from early Flaming Arrows. to Bombing in an airship over the british skies. Piloting the A6M Zero / Zeke fighter plane. To using the Katana. In modern days the skill of the user and the weapon is becoming more distant true to the point that some vehicles are not even manned such as some of the recent drone tanks and planes USA is developing. however BT is set in a mindset before than and had a technological fall.. targeting computers are not as good as they were before. As mentioned on the stalkers sarna page: after the first succesion war (the reason so many things are lostech and we took steps back in tech) the stalker no longer has it's computer to manage it's heat for the pilot. now the mechwarrior has to use his wits and skill to manage and use the stalker effectively. (this being my 'evidence' of this occuring in BT)

Well lasers deal damage over [x] ammount of time, if enemy roles armour in this time you easily streak across 4 components... aimming for his left torso and he rolled over to the right? 4 components, etc. At range nearly everyone looks like they are having a seizure firing this because to my knowledge no mouse under 60 dollars is sensitive enough to allow such precise movement at 600-1000 meters range. Well that's on a moving target. On those who stand still it's a bit easier or those in an assault mech (that isn't kodiak becuase my god that's fast). clan UAC's fire multiple shots and thus easy to have spread damage due to the nature of a battlefield. As well as the LBX weapon. MG's have a cone of fire so that's out of the question already. SRM's spread too. and lower AC's like AC 2 to do good damage needs to fire a lot to do their full damage potential, the AC 2's 20 damage will be far more spread than an AC 20's 20 damage.
I personalyl wish MW: O went with volleys like this. I would like it to be more accurate and such for the larger LRM's. I actually wanted to suggest PGI to make LRM choices more modular. You can choose in the mechlab to fire in a large burst or fire in 5's. Or maybe make that a in game option to toggle...
However commenting on how the weapon behaves differently in TT applies to all other weapons as well... Gauss is a good example of this.

Suppression is part of being a support role and direct fire mechs can not do as well as they could without an LRM boat assisting and vice versa. Gauss and PPC can't do the same things as an LRM, it doesn't shake the enemy as often, doesn't have the same DPS or damage potential. and lastly doesn't have the ability to fire over cover and friendlies.

What's worse, a stalker with twin PPC and Gauss firing at you, or that stalker with a 4 x LRM 15 + Artemis stalker right behind him firing at you as well. Because in this possible example there is no space to get 2 or more mechs to effectively go side by side and fire on the enemy, Sure this is a tight area in this current scenario but inflated to 12 man teams many places in game currently make it hard to have a 12 man wide firing line or a large echelon formation going on or what ever. Also hard to fire on enemies while still going to battle and there are canyons/ cliffs/ walls in the way. (just as canyon network, this makes slower mechs like an atlas very useful on a conquest game due to the spread out nature of the gameplay).

Agreed. Currently as the collective community makes it out; The LRM is the most OP and UP weapon in game. It's reliance on teamwork yet it's critical role when in use with teamwork makes it the most powerful mech with others but the most weakest alone. It's one of the reasons conversations like this strike: Someone things it's completely useless and somehow worse than NARC and TAG (ya know... the weapons specifically used to assist LRM boats...) or Machineguns yet the same day and same patch I can be on another page trying to reasure people it isn't the most OP weapon in game and ez mode.
SSRM's do not really follow TT rules... if they do they should be uber accurate and do not requrie a lock, they get the lock when you just point and fire. (making ECM mechs run for their money as you do not even need to target lock the enemy to fire the guided streaks)

P, on 24 February 2016 - 10:37 PM, said:

how can they be scary

I notice the guy on the right has a CT flamer... subtle but clever
Also... 4 er small laser, 4 er medium laser, 2 er large lasers, a flamer, and a random ballistic?... intersting lol build, I expected more pulse lasers and flamers.

(to be honest i have no idea what I should put on the Kodiak 5... I am thinking of twin er large lasers, 8 er mediums, a er ppc, and a gauss rifle...)

[Nightshade24]

Is it possible that further LRM discussion could be moved to the threads talking about LRM's and keep this thread about kodiak and it's blueprinty lore goodness?

[aGentleWarrior]

WTF is happening to me, i am absolute F2P player, played WoT for 3 years, WOWP and spend 5€ for wargaming... in that time
AND NOW I PREORDERED SOME KODIAKS?????????