283 replies to this topic

[Kaveli]

I'm going to side with they tested the mech in gameplay and found it to be powerful enough it didn't need a laundry list of quirks to make it viable. These mechs aren't supposed to be pay to win they're goal is for them to come out of the box balanced.

with the high mounted energy in the torsos and high mounted missile racks it might be perfectly fine as is. We'll only know for certain when we have the mechs in hand and get to see them in action.

[Xavori]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 March 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

Marauder is generally under-gunned. Range is too short, the ballistics are too slow (cool-down and velocity). Everything the MAD can do, the WHM does better since its durability buffs are just as potent and its weapon quirks are better.

The only MADs I would say are not under-gunned are the 5D when used at the close-range bracket and the BHII in general, though the BHII would be a better 'Mech if it wasn't limited to a 300-size engine.

The WHM Black Widow is by far my fav mech in the game. Tough as nails for a 70 ton, and I can go back and forth between laser vomit and dakka depending on my mood. Heck, for a long while there I did a mix of lasers and 4x machine guns making it a never-ending DPS machine. I was very happy with that purchase.

Just like I'm very happy I haven't purchased the Archer and now the Phoenix Hawk

[Thunderbird Anthares]

give it a -30% LRM 15/20 spread and +20% LRM velocity and it will be a good LRM mech, if everyone XL's it

as it is right now, its too "light" of a mech to effectively field 2x LRM20's and still be useful with any backup weapons - LRM20 with Artemis is 11 DAMN TONS - thats almost an AC20, except its a long range sandpaper and a good number of the missiles still miss

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 March 2016 - 11:16 PM, said:

Well...the ARC-2R has 3x SRM6 + 6x SmLas...I would say the SRMs are the primary payload on that one and, in fact, it is the only one of the bunch that comes with SRMs stock. I don't know if PGI is having a laugh, but it's also the variant with the strongest LRM quirks.

No, it doesn't actually.

The ARC-2R has 2x LRM20, and 4x MLasers, of which 2 were originally rear facing. What you see on the Quirk list is NOT it's stock armament, but a QA issue. Russ has confirmed this, and refers everyone to the Sales page for the correct armament until it gets fixed (not exactly a stay up late hotfix issue).

There are NO SRM Barrage Archers.
https://mwomercs.com/archer
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Archer

[wanderer]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 March 2016 - 11:16 PM, said:

Well...the ARC-2R has 3x SRM6 + 6x SmLas...I would say the SRMs are the primary payload on that one and, in fact, it is the only one of the bunch that comes with SRMs stock. I don't know if PGI is having a laugh, but it's also the variant with the strongest LRM quirks.

What's hilarious is that isn't the stock layout, which is 2xLRM20, 4xML.

They put up stats for the house-built monstrosity they used for the photos.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sister RAbbi, on 10 March 2016 - 11:09 PM, said:

ARC-T: Ah, the Tempest. Heavy missile boat with ECM! Despite having the God Box, it gets ALL the structure quirks? Not sure I follow the thinking there. I get that we balance the ECM with milder quirks (just look at this thing with the MOST STRUCTURE QUIRKS OF THE CHASSIS), but a pair of 5% quirks and that's it? One of them being a MEDIUM LASER quirk on a primarily MISSILE-CARRYING mech? Wild.


Still gonna love this mech, though. And as always, ALEX IS A FREAKING MANIAC!

I'd say because without mobility, those Structure Quirks will mean very little?

Yeonne Greene, on 10 March 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

Marauder is generally under-gunned. Range is too short, the ballistics are too slow (cool-down and velocity). Everything the MAD can do, the WHM does better since its durability buffs are just as potent and its weapon quirks are better.

The only MADs I would say are not under-gunned are the 5D when used at the close-range bracket and the BHII in general, though the BHII would be a better 'Mech if it wasn't limited to a 300-size engine.

MAD is a better mech, than a WHM. And neither should be in the conversation as Dakka MEchs.

Kaveli, on 10 March 2016 - 11:34 PM, said:

I'm going to side with they tested the mech in gameplay and found it to be powerful enough it didn't need a laundry list of quirks to make it viable. These mechs aren't supposed to be pay to win they're goal is for them to come out of the box balanced.

with the high mounted energy in the torsos and high mounted missile racks it might be perfectly fine as is. We'll only know for certain when we have the mechs in hand and get to see them in action.

Well, I can't knock a person for staying positive.

Thunderbird Anthares, on 10 March 2016 - 11:36 PM, said:

give it a -30% LRM 15/20 spread and +20% LRM velocity and it will be a good LRM mech, if everyone XL's it

as it is right now, its too "light" of a mech to effectively field 2x LRM20's and still be useful with any backup weapons - LRM20 with Artemis is 11 DAMN TONS - thats almost an AC20, except its a long range sandpaper and a good number of the missiles still miss

Would be nice if there was finally a mech that it make sense to use LRM20s on... instead, smart play will be 2x LRM15 with arty for limited launcher versions, and tons of 5s, etc for ones like the 5W. At least with aLRM15 most of the missiles hit and do semi effective damage.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 March 2016 - 11:57 PM.

[Xavori]

Also, I'm not sure how PGI math works exactly, but wouldn't a 5% less spread on an LRM 20 salvo just mean that 1 extra missile hits CT for 1 extra damage (cuz 5% of 20 is 1)? And any smaller volley likely gets an effect small enough that it will be truly negligible due to rounding.

So ya, let's ditch that and just copy-paste the quirks from existing missle-friendly mechs onto archers.

And then I promise I'll buy 'em including the hero.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

so... is this one finally the more obvious example of little problems piling up one by one until the dam breaks?

ridiculous SRM boats, useless "heavy" LRM, no incentive to self-balance to tactical viability to the point of ridiculous builds becoming only gimmicks, pinpoint hitscan lasers ruling supreme...

we'll see... not too hopeful at the moment

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2016 - 11:59 PM, said:

MAD is a better mech, than a WHM. And neither should be in the conversation as Dakka MEchs.

First part is not a truism on the field, second part is opinion. As far as I'm concerned, the MAD is a PPC+Ballistic 'Mech, and the quirks it has do not generally support it in such capacity. Only the 3R gets PPC quirks despite only the 5M lacking PPCs in stock form, and none of them have ballistic quirks to write home about despite the proliferation of ballistic hard-points on the chassis. Contrast with the WHM, where all of them got PPC quirks and half received significant ballistic quirks, as well as having the hard-points spread out in such a way that it facilitates more flexible construction. Seriously, building a MAD is a chore, especially if you want to use more than one ballistic. I still haven't settled on a build for the 5M because there's nothing it can do that I can't do better on a 3R or 5D.

Now combine all of those mentioned WHM advantages with generous structure buffs, superior geometry, fantastic agility, and lower drop weight.

As much as I love my MAD and excel with it, the WHM is the better 'Mech.

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2016 - 11:51 PM, said:

No, it doesn't actually.

The ARC-2R has 2x LRM20, and 4x MLasers, of which 2 were originally rear facing. What you see on the Quirk list is NOT it's stock armament, but a QA issue. Russ has confirmed this, and refers everyone to the Sales page for the correct armament until it gets fixed (not exactly a stay up late hotfix issue).

There are NO SRM Barrage Archers.
https://mwomercs.com/archer
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Archer

My mistake, then.

In that case, I'll just say that this is a rather bland set of quirks regardless. They resigned themselves to making all of them LRM 'Mechs, but tried to vary it up by making some just flat-out better at it. Stupid.

Needs more generic missile quirks.

[Beaching Betty]

They have 9 missile hardpoint, they no need any buff!

[Bishop Steiner]

Beaching Betty, on 11 March 2016 - 12:41 AM, said:

They have 9 missile hardpoint, they no need any buff!

um, ONE has 9 missile hardpoints. And Missiles aren't exactly uber-meta-deathrays.

[Widowmaker1981]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

um, ONE has 9 missile hardpoints. And Missiles aren't exactly uber-meta-deathrays.

Well, no mech has been able to do ASRM48 before..

With these quirks, if im honest, i only expect to see the 5W built as megasplat and the Tempest (because ECM) on the field, ever.

I don't like missiles in the first place, so have not purchased these. Carry on.

[ReemusX]

The only missile heat gen quirk is on the non-9 missile hard point variant?

[Luminis]

So, the next Lurmaggeddon has been postponed, I take it?

Nah, the quirk list does seem a little underwhelming at first glance. Giving the 5W a little heat generation quirk and maybe a cooldown decrease to turn it into a better SRM brawler would've been a start as well as adding some spread reduction for the bigger launchers. At least the LRM20. Decreasing its spread wouldn't make it any shape OP, or so I'm inclined to believe. Heck, my impression is that you'd have to buff it through the roof to get people to use it.

The thing standing out like a sore thumb, to me at least, is the 5S with its energy quirks. I might be off on this (not that big a 'Mech buff), but was the Archer ever primarily armed with lasers? Dunno, but I don't think it was. Granted, I get where that is coming from. Sorta. "Cram in a laser boat so the competitive crowd / meta peeps might want to get in on it".

As far as the structure quirks go... Eh. I find those especially hard to judge. Depends on how well the 'Mech rolls damage (= hitboxes) and how the missile doors interact with the ST's armour / structure.

Anyway, according to Reddit, Russ said this on Twitter:

Quote

[...] It's always the best course of action to come in light then buff rather than the other way around [...]

A sentiment that, to me, is perfectly reasonable. Definitely a better approach than buffing something like mad and then taking it down a dozen notches for balance' sake, especially since that would cause a lot of buyers to complain about a bait and switch kinda deal.

Strange thing is, PGI didn't follow that sentiment very closely with the MAD and WHM. Granted, neither of them were actually quirked to the point of being outright dominant 'Mechs, they're fairly well positioned on the food chain, as far as I can tell. The MAD might be a bit hard to compare the Archer to, mind you; nearly useless LT, knuckle dragging arms that have to take up the energy weapons limiting its peeking ability, ballistic hardpoints in the RT interfering with XL engines - I can see why they didn't treat the Archer to a comparable list of quirks.

The WHM, though? I think its biggest issue is the prominent CT hit box and it still isn't a dominant death machine despite the neat list of quirks. That thing, to me, is kinda the gold standard new 'Mechs ought to be held to: Very useful, not overpowered or overly dominant, great build variety between the variants, flexibility in regard to XL vs. STD engine - they came out pretty well.

So, while I agree with Russ' idea of "launch low, buff later", they didn't do that previously and the WHM is providing a pretty neat guideline to base the Archer on. Also, in all honesty, PGI could've slapped a number of pretty sweet LRM quirks on it - that weapon system can be countered fairly well, so even if there were a considerable number of Archers present in every match and even if they were better LRM boats than, say, a Catapult, I would not consider that gamebreaking - heck, I don't think it'd cause even a slight shift in what is currently considered meta.

/edit: Excuse the wall of text. Got a little carried away.

Edited by Luminis, 11 March 2016 - 02:53 AM.

[KHETTI]

Oh noes, the Archer isn't grossly over-quirked, why u do this PGI!?, people paid money for this expecting their temp. overpowered , paywalled monster.

[Tapdancing Kerensky]

Using that argument you should argue for all mechs to lose all quirks.

[Oberost]

KHETTI, on 11 March 2016 - 03:00 AM, said:

Oh noes, the Archer isn't grossly over-quirked, why u do this PGI!?, people paid money for this expecting their temp. overpowered , paywalled monster.

Yes, you're right, it's under-quirked. Look at other dedicated LRM mech quirks and then you'll understand what we complain about.

[MechWarrior414712]

People tend to forget that it has missile bay doors, which provide a damage reduction boost by itself. Unless they've changed something .

Crab and King Crab on the other hand don't have the reduction though as far as I know.

[Cyborne Elemental]

PGI hates LRMS as much as the rest of us do, is it really a surprise given the state of LRM balance compared to any other weapon system we have?

Also.. why are you buying a mech based solely on its quirks.. Haven't you people learned anything?
Quirks and other balance changes go back and forth constantly, its the worst way to shop.

Edited by Mister D, 11 March 2016 - 05:15 AM.

[SQW]

Hurry up and release the damn mech. My Raven is waiting. =)