555 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 27 March 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

There is NO EFFING WAY you would want to run an Archer with an XL engine.

It's the equivalent of giving the Maddog IS XL. It's TTK tanks IMMEDIATELY under that scenario.

It's bad enough I'm already wrecking Archers during this event (however little I've played during this event) and still fail miserably as is.

Trying to full alpha the playload is a bad thing... you fight Ghost Heat (.5 second delay required) or you play the "stare game" (to avoid Ghost heat) like the fools that try to chain fire everything (usually lasers) to their target. It's just self-TTK lowering of the most fragile nature.

You fire 5 then 4, 0.5 seconds apart.

ARCs are gimped with the bay doors open...if you close them when you finish firing, you get all that 10% free damage reduction. I am wrecking ARCs right now too, but I have only been wrecking idiots driving them...there are a couple of guys in my clan that drive the SRM monsters, and they absolutely roll face under 300m, it is unreal...

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No.

I simply know from experience shooting them - they were much softer before, and they are still rather soft now.

Bay doors open, yes...bay doors closed...it adds a layer of survivability.

I am not saying it is a BK...but it is also a lot more durable than the MDD.

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Again, you don't even realize that the comp-play Griffins run are using STANDARD Engines. Seriously, STANDARD. Some may get away with XL (3M has all its missiles on the left torso, which has a certain liability/risk to that), but anyways the structure quirks do allow for the mech to be very functional. I cannot say the same for the Archer.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...09042d91cc1f9fb

Hmm...by your argument for speed...you are contradicting yourself calling for a STD engine build.

That GRF will only go 82 kph with the biggest possible STD engine, 1 JJ and sufficient ammo, with no backup weapons and stripped arms.

Which is it? They take it for speed, or they take it for durability?

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I dunno about you Gyrok... when Timberwolfs were king, you were somehow adamantly defensive that they were still underpowered.

So, I take that honestly with a grain of salt.

When I got access to the Timberwolves when they became accessible with C-bills, it was the biggest EASY MODE mech ever.

That was more clan tech OP, and the TW was specifically good at carrying lots of Clan tech. Now clan tech is nerfed to hell, and the TW is still the mediocre hit boxes, low mounts, and over engined mech it always was. I think most people are thinking of the glory days while they drive BKs.

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That's why I stopped listening to the Timberwolf is UP type of argument.

The TW is not really UP, but it is not OP, and aside from JJs, it is a very average clan mech with a huge engine. I have a feeling when the Night Gyr comes people will finally see the TW for what it is...

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Things have changed since then, and while the Timberwolf isn't the goto mech, it is the definitely up there with all the other options and when you keep building "theorymechs" that don't pass the smell test (just based on field experience that I have to deal with), then people like me reading what you're writing roll their eyes.

Just wait until the ARC drops for cbills, I am not going to blow real money on them, but when they drop, I will certainly be picking them up.

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I'm not even saying everything I say is great or the most accurate, but I'm not the loudest to whine about "Clan inferiority" since Clans were released when "Clan inferiority" DID NOT EXIST for a long time (outside of the garbage tier mechs like the Mist Lynx - IS has more garbage to sell you back too), I don't have the patience to listen to this.

FFS, I am not saying clans are drastically inferior, and I am not saying they need a huge boost.

I am saying that balance is still tilted slightly toward the IS in most cases (not by a large margin, mind you, but enough to be noticeable). I am also saying that everything I said about the TW being great at versatility and terrible at specialization is becoming insanely obvious now that clan tech is inferior to IS tech in most respects on a 1 to 1 basis.

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Balance is better, but still flawed. While I still subscribe to "there are different alternatives", I simply DO NOT BELIEVE Clans are screwed (the already screw Clan Mechs are the ones that still suffer from obvious limitations in the first place, and have been noted repeatedly - which totally exempts the Timberwolf from that list)... if these things were dramatically as good as you said they were (King Crab > Dire Wolf in many of you stranger posts), you'd see them in comp play right? Right?

You did see KGCs then, and you see MALs now.

When KDK comes, we will see how "OP" the DW is considered...I am betting two things happen:

1.) The Clamz always OP crowd cries for KDK nerfs

2.) The clan fanatics point at the Atlas and say KDK is fine, DW needs love...

Want to know what PGI will do? Leave the DW alone, and nerf the KDK...why? Because Clamz OP...it gets really ******* old, and really predictable too.

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Just no.

No, buddy...Nike's slogan was Just do it.

Oberost, on 27 March 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

It's not called gimped, it's called balanced...

In what sense?

1 to 1 Clan tech is outright inferior to IS tech in many ways...

Is IS superiority any more balanced than Clan superiority? No...the scale is just tipped the other way.

[FupDup]

At first I thought I was missing out on something by not reading the majority of pages of this thread.

But then I realized Gyrok was involved, so I already know how those pages went and how all future pages will go.

Nothing to see here, move along...

[Oberost]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

1 to 1 Clan tech is outright inferior to IS tech in many ways...

And outright superior in many other ways, so balanced...

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 27 March 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

At first I thought I was missing out on something by not reading the majority of pages of this thread.

But then I realized Gyrok was involved, so I already know how those pages went and how all future pages will go.

Nothing to see here, move along...

Fup, for once in your life, stop jumping to conclusions and actually read my last post.

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

Fup, for once in your life, stop jumping to conclusions and actually read my last post.

They're all the same though. You're basically the mech on the left in this picture:

[Gyrok]

Oberost, on 27 March 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

And outright superior in many other ways, so balanced...

Tell me where you think clan tech is superior...

FupDup, on 27 March 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

They're all the same though. You're basically the mech on the left in this picture:

No...I am not.

I am the voice of reason...and it is getting tired hearing the slanderous libel and jargon from the same old *** hats that talk about "clamz OP" while not owning a single clan mech because somewhere 20 years ago, a clan mech touched their IS mechs in a bad place in a TT game and "ruined their game forever..."

Can we not just get those neckbeard grognards to STFU once and for all...they are like a cancer upon this forum and attempt to stifle legitimate discussion about pros and cons at any turn.

[Oberost]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

Tell me where you think clan tech is superior...

cXL, clan Endo/Ferro/DHS (less slots, and also FF better than IS one), weapons and some equipment weight less (and also less slots), omnipods, TC...

This is not outright superior?

And don't come back with the "but the IS is outright superior in this...", because the only way to balance something without being the same is making it better at some things and worse in others. And right now the IS Vs Clans balance seems to be almost right.

[Chuck Jager]

Said once say again.

Play the 5-8 good mechs/builds while completely forgetting about anything related to lore and there are not any real problems and plenty of Cbills.

Good and Bad is not really about Clan or IS in general terms.

[Triordinant]

Just one more year and we'll finally have a BattleTech game without Clans -and we've got so many other good games to play between now and then.

[Gyrok]

Oberost, on 27 March 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

cXL, clan Endo/Ferro/DHS (less slots, and also FF better than IS one), weapons and some equipment weight less (and also less slots), omnipods, TC...

This is not outright superior?

And don't come back with the "but the IS is outright superior in this...", because the only way to balance something without being the same is making it better at some things and worse in others. And right now the IS Vs Clans balance seems to be almost right.

cDHS are actually worse than IS DHS in terms of heat cap, and basically the same in dissipation.

Clan omnimechs cannot change how Endo/FF are configured...so bad clam omnimechs are just bad clams because so much locked internals. They do get omnipods, but I am honestly not sure that is a fair trade in most cases. If you could build your own omnipods to truly configure the mech as you wish like TT, that might be different...but with locked slots, some mechs with lots of hardpoints are better off than other mechs that have limited hardpoints and more tonnage. There is no proliferation or justification why some mechs are so hardpoint starved...and others are not... Much like most of the way this game is balanced.

The IIC mechs are not overly impressive...and I would even say the HGN and ON1 are both worse off than the IS versions. The hunchie IIC is above average, but without the crazy structure quirks IS hunchies get, it is really a glass cannon. The Jenner IIC is good, but it is objectively below the oxide...somehow Endo/FF is not helping those mechs as much as many people thought it would.

TCs are nice to a degree...but you have to weight the tonnage/crit cost versus having another DHS, which you now need more than ever because the DHS are nerfed.

There are lots of trade offs there...the IS is not really getting much that has a trade off. Especially structure quirked mechs...

[Oberost]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

cDHS are actually worse than IS DHS in terms of heat cap, and basically the same in dissipation.

Clan omnimechs cannot change how Endo/FF are configured...so bad clam omnimechs are just bad clams because so much locked internals. They do get omnipods, but I am honestly not sure that is a fair trade in most cases. If you could build your own omnipods to truly configure the mech as you wish like TT, that might be different...but with locked slots, some mechs with lots of hardpoints are better off than other mechs that have limited hardpoints and more tonnage. There is no proliferation or justification why some mechs are so hardpoint starved...and others are not... Much like most of the way this game is balanced.

The IIC mechs are not overly impressive...and I would even say the HGN and ON1 are both worse off than the IS versions. The hunchie IIC is above average, but without the crazy structure quirks IS hunchies get, it is really a glass cannon. The Jenner IIC is good, but it is objectively below the oxide...somehow Endo/FF is not helping those mechs as much as many people thought it would.

TCs are nice to a degree...but you have to weight the tonnage/crit cost versus having another DHS, which you now need more than ever because the DHS are nerfed.

There are lots of trade offs there...the IS is not really getting much that has a trade off. Especially structure quirked mechs...

So to sum up, Clans are better at some things and worse at others. At the end when you compare all things (and not just one outstanding mech or one abysmal) they seem to be pretty balanced.

[Gyrok]

Oberost, on 27 March 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

So to sum up, Clans are better at some things and worse at others. At the end when you compare all things (and not just one outstanding mech or one abysmal) they seem to be pretty balanced.

I disagree...they are not drastically off...but things are still slanted ever so slightly to the IS side of the scale...the IS has fewer trade offs than what has been forced on clans.

Edited by Gyrok, 27 March 2016 - 12:31 PM.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

You fire 5 then 4, 0.5 seconds apart.

ARCs are gimped with the bay doors open...if you close them when you finish firing, you get all that 10% free damage reduction. I am wrecking ARCs right now too, but I have only been wrecking idiots driving them...there are a couple of guys in my clan that drive the SRM monsters, and they absolutely roll face under 300m, it is unreal...

You're totally overrating the damage reduction.

Back when the Centurion was all the rage, it was primarily done through the damage transfer mechanism with the "missing arm pieces". The Centurion nowadays w/o those hitboxes and certainly w/o the missile bay doors aren't as optimal for that (the AH is somewhat of a fad to boot).

Nowadays, the only missile bay doors that "seem to matter" are the Catapult's ears... but that's because they had to be overquirked armor/structure-wise, and it's just easier to remove a side torso (or CT) instead of trying to hit those large ears. Catapults still aren't really a thing despite those missile doors.

So, overrated is the correct term for this.

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Bay doors open, yes...bay doors closed...it adds a layer of survivability.

I am not saying it is a BK...but it is also a lot more durable than the MDD.

Again, no.

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http://mwo.smurfy-ne...09042d91cc1f9fb

Hmm...by your argument for speed...you are contradicting yourself calling for a STD engine build.

That GRF will only go 82 kph with the biggest possible STD engine, 1 JJ and sufficient ammo, with no backup weapons and stripped arms.

Which is it? They take it for speed, or they take it for durability?

You know... I explicitly mentioned the 3M... the one with the better durability quirks. It is to my understanding that ECM isn't necessary (due in part nerfs), but the tankability/durability in the 3M is why one even bothers to do it.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...683b1d5b7a827a5

Edit:

The engine in your Griffin build is too damn slow. I don't even know why anyone would run a sub-275 STD engine unless your mech's name was "Hunchback".

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That was more clan tech OP, and the TW was specifically good at carrying lots of Clan tech. Now clan tech is nerfed to hell, and the TW is still the mediocre hit boxes, low mounts, and over engined mech it always was. I think most people are thinking of the glory days while they drive BKs.

Yes, Clan Gauss Rifles were nerfed to hell... oh wait, no.

Clan Laser Vomit isn't overwhelmingly dominant, which wasn't even the case previously. It was literally everything (and then some).

So, no.

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The TW is not really UP, but it is not OP, and aside from JJs, it is a very average clan mech with a huge engine. I have a feeling when the Night Gyr comes people will finally see the TW for what it is...

Um, I already see some artifacts with the Hunchback IIC. The Timberwolf is already great for what it offers.

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Just wait until the ARC drops for cbills, I am not going to blow real money on them, but when they drop, I will certainly be picking them up.

Chances are, it will coincide with some requirkening. Today, it's still not there at all.

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FFS, I am not saying clans are drastically inferior, and I am not saying they need a huge boost.

I am saying that balance is still tilted slightly toward the IS in most cases (not by a large margin, mind you, but enough to be noticeable). I am also saying that everything I said about the TW being great at versatility and terrible at specialization is becoming insanely obvious now that clan tech is inferior to IS tech in most respects on a 1 to 1 basis.

Still no. You can specialize in the Timberwolf, but you choose not to or don't know when to. That's the difference.

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You did see KGCs then, and you see MALs now.

lol no.

I see Maulers now for a different reason altogether, but LOL NO at the King Crabs. Still no.

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When KDK comes, we will see how "OP" the DW is considered...I am betting two things happen:

1.) The Clamz always OP crowd cries for KDK nerfs

2.) The clan fanatics point at the Atlas and say KDK is fine, DW needs love...

Want to know what PGI will do? Leave the DW alone, and nerf the KDK...why? Because Clamz OP...it gets really ******* old, and really predictable too.

The Kodiak is likely to be closer aligned to an Atlas... and "Clan Atlas" if you will (there is an Atlas IIC IIRC, but that's not the discussion at hand). The Dire Wolf will still serve a role that the Kodiak will not. Still we'll find out soon enough.

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No, buddy...Nike's slogan was Just do it.

Still no.

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In what sense?

1 to 1 Clan tech is outright inferior to IS tech in many ways...

Is IS superiority any more balanced than Clan superiority? No...the scale is just tipped the other way.

No.

CERMEDs are still the most useful weapon in the Clan mech's build regardless. It won't win necessarily on duration, but for damage over time for the tonnage consumed at the distance covered, it's still better.

CSPL is the optimal choice of weapon for Clan Lights as it's covers minimal stare time with decent damage for its tonnage. CSML isn't necessarily in a good spot IMO.

CMPL is pretty effective Wub... a somewhat cheaper form of the IS LPL for what you're paying for it (slightly more duration over the ISLPL, but covers the same effective distance when it comes to optimal range).

Clan Gauss Rifle is still outright better than IS Gauss Rifle (not that anyone wants to run dual Gauss on the Onion IICs) straight up.

CLPL doesn't even suffer from the range nerf, and does better work than the CERLL at its range (CERLL will be used for the obvious extreme long range/sniper role that it has always been in) and is more than capable holding its own vs unquirked ISERLL. It doesn't synergize as well as it once did with the CERMED, but they still function fairly well despite that.


So, I don't know what to tell you Gyrok. I simply know that you're not using the tools you have been provided to be effective and that's not my problem.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 March 2016 - 12:36 PM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 27 March 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

You're totally overrating the damage reduction.

Back when the Centurion was all the rage, it was primarily done through the damage transfer mechanism with the "missing arm pieces". The Centurion nowadays w/o those hitboxes and certainly w/o the missile bay doors aren't as optimal for that (the AH is somewhat of a fad to boot).

Nowadays, the only missile bay doors that "seem to matter" are the Catapult's ears... but that's because they had to be overquirked armor/structure-wise, and it's just easier to remove a side torso (or CT) instead of trying to hit those large ears. Catapults still aren't really a thing despite those missile doors.

So, overrated is the correct term for this.

I have seen them since the quirks went in, and they are markedly more tanky. As I said, not the most durable in the game, but still quite tanky.

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Again, no.






You know... I explicitly mentioned the 3M... the one with the better durability quirks. It is to my understanding that ECM isn't necessary (due in part nerfs), but the tankability/durability in the 3M is why one even bothers to do it.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...683b1d5b7a827a5

I still see lots of 2Ns, but I suppose you could go either way...

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Yes, Clan Gauss Rifles were nerfed to hell... oh wait, no.

Clan Laser Vomit isn't overwhelmingly dominant, which wasn't even the case previously. It was literally everything (and then some).

Clan Gauss that dangles a 1-2' off the ground is too low, and the ST is too vulnerable with it mounted there in the TW, the ST hit box is too big to reliably shield it well.

You can run SRMs and SPLs, but you are extremely short ranged, and other mechs are better at it...

You can run ERLLs, but the HBR does that better...

You can run LPL-ERML, but the EBJ does that better...

You can run all ERMLs or MPLs, but the HBR does that better...

You can run dual Gauss, but the EBJ does that better...

You can run dakka like 2 UAC10s or 3 UAC5s, but, once again, the EBJ is better at that by a wide margin...

You can try to run lots of small lasers, but the SCR is better at it...

Even Gauss + LPL is better on EBJ.

Gauss + ERPPC can be done with JJs, but it is not really suitable for jump sniping.

If you are so confident the TW is best at something...please...tell me objectively...what is the TW best at?

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Um, I already see some artifacts with the Hunchback IIC. The Timberwolf is already great for what it offers.

Ok, care to say what it is you think it offers?

Is it the fact that it has the second most pod space for a clan heavy, or, objectively the worst hit boxes for a clan heavy, or, that it is the second best laser platform for a clan heavy, or, the second, or third (counting Gauss/UAC5s on HBR), best dakka platform for clans, or, the hardlocked omnipods with JJs that are the one thing it offers that make it super compared to the other options?

Be objective for a moment, and explain to me factually what makes the TW "great".

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Chances are, it will coincide with some requirkening. Today, it's still not there at all.

Umm...likely not...we will see...

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Still no. You can specialize in the Timberwolf, but you choose not to or don't know when to. That's the difference.

No, I am using the equipment optimally...

Let us examine:

Best Clan Dakka heavies:

1.) EBJ

2.) HBR

3.) TW

Best Clan mid-range laser heavies:

1.) EBJ

2.) TW

3.) HBR

Best long range Clan laser heavies:

1.) HBR

2.) EBJ

3.) TW

Best Clan brawlers:

1.) SCR

2.) EXE

3.) SMN

4.) TW

Best clan jump snipers:

1.) SHC

2.) SMN

3.) TW

Best Clan SRM mechs:

1.) MDD
2.) SCR

3.) SMN

4.) EBJ

5.) TW

Best Clan LRM mechs

1.) WHK

2.) MDD
3.) SCR

4.) SMN

5.) EBJ

6.) TW

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lol no.

I see Maulers now for a different reason altogether, but LOL NO at the King Crabs. Still no.

Maulers are more mobile with similar DPS and good mounts...that is why they replace DWs, because the mobility is so gimped nobody can be assed to baby sit one in a comp drop.

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The Kodiak is likely to be closer aligned to an Atlas... and "Clan Atlas" if you will (there is an Atlas IIC IIRC, but that's not the discussion at hand). The Dire Wolf will still serve a role that the Kodiak will not. Still we'll find out soon enough.

It will be a glass cannon with vastly higher mobility, and you will see them far more than DWs until they nerf the bejeezus out of them...when that happens, it will probably drive most clan players back away from the game again because clan new shiny always hit with jackhammer when IS douche canoes cry.

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CERMEDs are still the most useful weapon in the Clan mech's build regardless. It won't win necessarily on duration, but for damage over time for the tonnage consumed at the distance covered, it's still better.

Actually considering the max range difference on a 10% quirked IS ML right now is a whopping 80m after a range 5 module for clans...it is not really that big a deal any more, and you pay an enormous amount of heat for that 80m max range too.

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CSPL is the optimal choice of weapon for Clan Lights as it's covers minimal stare time with decent damage for its tonnage. CSML isn't necessarily in a good spot IMO.

You realize that SPLs were nerfed in the fall off nerf "by accident" and PGI has still not gotten around to fixing it? Their max range is ~220m -ish. The ERSL is nerfed equally as badly...both are in a **** spot to be honest. They should un-nerf the ranges on small/medium class clan lasers.

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CMPL is pretty effective Wub... a somewhat cheaper form of the IS LPL for what you're paying for it (slightly more duration over the ISLPL, but covers the same effective distance when it comes to optimal range).

Remember that fall off nerf that was not supposed to effect pulses? Well, the MPL is caught up in that too...you do not even get close to LPL range. Sure would be good of you to check this stuff before you start talking about how great it is...

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Clan Gauss Rifle is still outright better than IS Gauss Rifle (not that anyone wants to run dual Gauss on the Onion IICs) straight up.

By the time you put energy weapons with that Gauss rifle, the weight savings are eaten up by the crappier cDHS.

You have to consider the tech across the board.

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CLPL doesn't even suffer from the range nerf, and does better work than the CERLL at its range (CERLL will be used for the obvious extreme long range/sniper role that it has always been in) and is more than capable holding its own vs unquirked ISERLL. It doesn't synergize as well as it once did with the CERMED, but they still function fairly well despite that.

The CLPL is the only actually strong energy weapon clans have at the moment, and you can only fire 2 at once, pay high heat, and have double the burn time of the most OP energy weapon in the game...the IS LPL. Yes you get more range, but with range quirks and modules it is not as big a gap as many want to make it out to be...

This coming from someone who has over 300 drops in a wubhammer since it dropped, and I can assure you, the cLPL does not out trade me very often...duration is too long to be of significance, and inside IS LPL range, the cLPL is flat out performed hands down. Especially being able to fire 3 at a time.

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So, I don't know what to tell you Gyrok. I simply know that you're not using the tools you have been provided to be effective and that's not my problem.

Accept you are doing it wrong and making ASSumptions?

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

The CLPL is the only actually strong energy weapon clans have at the moment, and you can only fire 2 at once, pay high heat, and have double the burn time of the most OP energy weapon in the game...the IS LPL. Yes you get more range, but with range quirks and modules it is not as big a gap as many want to make it out to be...

cSPL: Best brawling weapon in the game

[Amsro]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

I disagree...they are not drastically off...but things are still slanted ever so slightly to the IS side of the scale...the IS has fewer trade offs than what has been forced on clans.

I play 95% IS, and yet my best matches are almost always in my timberwolves, with the appropriate play style adjustments the great clan mechs still wreck anything you throw at it.

[Gyrok]

Amsro, on 27 March 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

I play 95% IS, and yet my best matches are almost always in my timberwolves, with the appropriate play style adjustments the great clan mechs still wreck anything you throw at it.

Not saying they cannot wreck face still...

I am playing 95% IS currently, to give you an idea, since the WHM dropped I have over 300 matches in the 6D alone...that is not counting BKs, and other IS mechs I play a lot.

The WHM-6D, over similar match numbers (slightly less than any specific one TW variant, most of my TWs are around 400-500 matches or more), has higher damage/match, more kills/match, higher KDR, and more XP/match than any TW I have...it is even higher in some of those than my HBR prime which is my Gauss-ERML HBR...and my most played mech...ever.

Edited by Gyrok, 27 March 2016 - 02:03 PM.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 27 March 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

cSPL: Best brawling weapon in the game

Max range is ~200m without range 5 module after fall off nerf...I do not want to be that close in a clan mech...pretty much ever...

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

I still see lots of 2Ns, but I suppose you could go either way...

The role of the 2N is used if you needed ECM for a particular situation. When using a 3M, you are straight up declaring that you want to brawl and it will tank far better than the 2N for obvious reasons.

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Clan Gauss that dangles a 1-2' off the ground is too low, and the ST is too vulnerable with it mounted there in the TW, the ST hit box is too big to reliably shield it well.

You can run SRMs and SPLs, but you are extremely short ranged, and other mechs are better at it...

You can run ERLLs, but the HBR does that better...

You can run LPL-ERML, but the EBJ does that better...

You can run all ERMLs or MPLs, but the HBR does that better...

You can run dual Gauss, but the EBJ does that better...

You can run dakka like 2 UAC10s or 3 UAC5s, but, once again, the EBJ is better at that by a wide margin...

You can try to run lots of small lasers, but the SCR is better at it...

Even Gauss + LPL is better on EBJ.

Gauss + ERPPC can be done with JJs, but it is not really suitable for jump sniping.

If you are so confident the TW is best at something...please...tell me objectively...what is the TW best at?

In your scenarios, you are really skewing the facts.

In all of the examples, the Timberwolf is better under a specific situation, and the examples you are using are better in a specific situation just as well.

For instance, the Hellbringer 4ERLL is better if you going to hill hump and cooloff... but for a Timberwolf, it gains a lot more DHS and isn't going to hold the majority of its weapons/equipment on its left torso (not that the low mounts elsewhere are better, but you get better placement/options that the Hellbringer cannot ontop of JJs).

The Hellbringer is NEVER going to have the level of cooling that the Timberwolf has access to and I think you're overrating the Ebon Jag quite a bit. It has its uses, but it retains the durability of a 65-tonner... in which the Timberwolf has that down pat (being a 75-ton mech) with JJs. I'm not saying the JJs are the overriding factor, but under many scenarios where mobility is concerned, the Timberwolf would have the edge over both.

Just labeling "the Timberwolf" isn't as good is rather inappropriate as it is exceptional when the things you need are in demand.

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Ok, care to say what it is you think it offers?

Is it the fact that it has the second most pod space for a clan heavy, or, objectively the worst hit boxes for a clan heavy, or, that it is the second best laser platform for a clan heavy, or, the second, or third (counting Gauss/UAC5s on HBR), best dakka platform for clans, or, the hardlocked omnipods with JJs that are the one thing it offers that make it super compared to the other options?

Be objective for a moment, and explain to me factually what makes the TW "great".



Umm...likely not...we will see...



No, I am using the equipment optimally...

Let us examine:

Best Clan Dakka heavies:

1.) EBJ

2.) HBR

3.) TW

Best Clan mid-range laser heavies:

1.) EBJ

2.) TW

3.) HBR

Best long range Clan laser heavies:

1.) HBR

2.) EBJ

3.) TW

Best Clan brawlers:

1.) SCR

2.) EXE

3.) SMN

4.) TW

Best clan jump snipers:

1.) SHC

2.) SMN

3.) TW

Best Clan SRM mechs:

1.) MDD
2.) SCR

3.) SMN

4.) EBJ

5.) TW

Best Clan LRM mechs

1.) WHK

2.) MDD
3.) SCR

4.) SMN

5.) EBJ

6.) TW

I feel like I need to reference the SWOL Power Tiers.

"No notable pilots."

While I could bother to compile a list of what I think the list should be arranged, but I won't because like those lists, there's no definitive answer necessarily. It's easier to spend time debating what something can and cannot do, but the reality is that while the Timberwolf isn't going to be the hillhumper like a Hellbringer or as compact as a Ebon Jag, it is still one of the better options on the Clan arsenal that "just works" when used properly.

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Maulers are more mobile with similar DPS and good mounts...that is why they replace DWs, because the mobility is so gimped nobody can be assed to baby sit one in a comp drop.

lol no.

The Mauler adds a much more capable dakka option for the IS, but it doesn't replace the Direwolf for sheer alphas/damage. Mauler still suffers for being slow (not Dire Wolf slow), but it makes up for it with sustained dakka. The Banshee-3E was kinda that, but isn't always optimal (going full dakka would require a King Crab - which isn't optimal due to its shape and where the firing points are located)

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It will be a glass cannon with vastly higher mobility, and you will see them far more than DWs until they nerf the bejeezus out of them...when that happens, it will probably drive most clan players back away from the game again because clan new shiny always hit with jackhammer when IS douche canoes cry.

I get the feeling that if it isn't quirked, it will have some issues. I'm leaning towards that it needs durability quirks.. only to compete with the Atlas (that's my sole assumption here - because I don't think it'll ever be Dire Wolf quality in firepower).

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You realize that SPLs were nerfed in the fall off nerf "by accident" and PGI has still not gotten around to fixing it? Their max range is ~220m -ish. The ERSL is nerfed equally as badly...both are in a **** spot to be honest. They should un-nerf the ranges on small/medium class clan lasers.



Remember that fall off nerf that was not supposed to effect pulses? Well, the MPL is caught up in that too...you do not even get close to LPL range. Sure would be good of you to check this stuff before you start talking about how great it is...

To be fair, I didn't entirely object to it being applied to pulse lasers (although it being totally missing from the CLPL was very much noted and I'm annoyed at that).

You're committing 2 tons+1 crit to a CMPL whereas you're committing 7 tons+2 crits to the ISLPL. I would hardly call that a "small difference" in tonnage commitments when comparing both weapons.

If you're using the weapons within optimal range, those issues are nigh. I don't see why a 2 ton weapon have almost equal amounts of range to the 7 ton version (it's insane, just like IS LL vs CERMEDs).

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By the time you put energy weapons with that Gauss rifle, the weight savings are eaten up by the crappier cDHS.

Since when did Dual Gauss solutions need DHS (outside of the min required)?

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You have to consider the tech across the board.

Oh I do, that's why I completely disagree with your assessment.

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The CLPL is the only actually strong energy weapon clans have at the moment, and you can only fire 2 at once, pay high heat, and have double the burn time of the most OP energy weapon in the game...the IS LPL. Yes you get more range, but with range quirks and modules it is not as big a gap as many want to make it out to be...

This coming from someone who has over 300 drops in a wubhammer since it dropped, and I can assure you, the cLPL does not out trade me very often...duration is too long to be of significance, and inside IS LPL range, the cLPL is flat out performed hands down. Especially being able to fire 3 at a time.

If you're complaining about ISLPL being OP, why are you brawling with your Clan Mechs? The point of running range is to shoot at optimal range before your target gets to brawling range.

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Accept you are doing it wrong and making ASSumptions?

Nope.

When I compare weapons, I have to look at what has to be paid for in terms of tonnage. When you're trying to compare very capable weapons like CSPL and consider it dirt despite being one of the best brawling weapons for Lights (MPL is not far behind for bigger mechs), then I don't really think you're honest or that you actually do comparisons FACTORING OTHER ISSUES AT HAND before stating your claim.

When you do so many damage comparisons, you either ignore range or tonnage consumed.

When you do so many range comparisons, you ignore role or its correct usage (and tonnage required to do that type of build).

When you do so many mech comparisons, you ignore hardpoint placements, options, or role (and other things that differentiate the mechs in question).


That's why this BS has to be called out.


It's fine that you disagree, but when you disagree, you are going to get called out by other people discussing things with you because it appears that you unilaterally ignore the key points in the comparison and in doing so destroying any credibility you have. I don't even care if you care about that, but that's why people honestly won't take you seriously.

If you want to be taken seriously, stop with faulty logic and bad builds (because, you have built garbagey builds in the past) and stop trying to claim things that simply aren't true.

Don't even get me started on your oddball hate on the Dragon-1N, where arm removal is like rule #1 in beating them outright when it was a thing for CW (and I doubt that gimmick was consistently effective in comp play - if it was used in the first place).

[Tarogato]

Now, I agree that right now Inner Sphere is ahead of Clan in the balance department. Personally, I don't see how anybody could see it differently, though it's quite a small disparity.

But... this...

Gyrok, on 27 March 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

I am the voice of reason...