579 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

Assumptions, assumptions. I didn't use Kodiaks after mastering them because I deemed them, how do I put that, to be not fitting my preferred playstyle. But that's unimportant. The thread you made to boast was about the KDK3 and that you are such a good pilot, that one is important. Not a word about it needing a nerf. Now go forth and demand that nerf since everybody is now on your skilllevel because people can buy it for Cbills, oh master of the leaderboard. You even are opposed by KDK3, such insolence! Now tell everyone that you are a bodybuilder and be done with it for today. Everyone is interested, believe me.

Everyone.

Go show me this thread


I've been making fun of the SupaHunchDakkaBear since the beginning

Edited by Mcgral18, 04 November 2016 - 08:00 PM.

[Mcgral18]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

Bring me some water and I get started. Anything else you want me to do while I'm at it? At your service your highness.

Proof of burden, unless you're making up lies

[Mcgral18]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

So you deleted the topic. That just proves I have a point. Actually pretty low, don't you agree?

I have no words

You are hilarious

[Mole]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

So you deleted the topic. That just proves I have a point. Actually pretty low, don't you agree?

Hahaha. This is fun. When do we get to the part where you call McGral a tier 5 scrub?

[MischiefSC]

W E N D I G O, on 04 November 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

So you deleted the topic. That just proves I have a point. Actually pretty low, don't you agree?

Wait wait, were you wrong again?

I call tell, cuz you posted.

McGral was one of the first to call for the KDK-3 nerf. The original thread got nuked by admins.

Ideal situation would be KDK-3 with 0 quirks and that being the performance standard other mechs get buffed up to. It's got ideal hardpoints and placement as well as potential internals (max engine, Clan tech IIC mech).

That it's got quirks and then shortly after it was released the other assaults that were even close to it all got nerfed just made it all worse.

Humanoid, over the shoulder hardpoints for ballistics and plenty of E slots, max engine potential and Clan tech? Hitboxes are average and no JJs. Otherwise it's about ideal. As such it should be the gold standard, quirkless and the point other mechs should get quirked/modified up to match (approximately).

None of the people here were ever, in any thread, talking negative quirks for it. Not the people you're talking about. Some did, same as some said it was fine and should be OP because Clans should all be OP cuz LORE. Nobody takes (or should take) either group seriously.

You have a lot in common with them that way.

[FireStoat]

I declare the troll that extended this thread by 10 pages the winner.

[MischiefSC]

FireStoat, on 04 November 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

I declare the troll that extended this thread by 10 pages the winner.

Don't play the pronoun game. That could apply to, like, 5 or 6 people here.

[Wil McCullough]

FireStoat, on 04 November 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

I declare the troll that extended this thread by 10 pages the winner.

can i play for the next 10

Edited by Wil McCullough, 04 November 2016 - 10:53 PM.

[Scout Derek]

TF happened while I was gone.

Still going to schedule that 1v1.

[Bawbagzz]

This still going?It's actually more entertaining than the game itself !

[Sjorpha]

Sjorpha, on 04 November 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

AphexTwin11, just stop. Please. You don't know anything about competitive play and it shows. I'm not claiming to know as much as Quicksilver and others, but I do actually play some comp from time to time at my comparably measly skill level and I do actually try to keep myself informed, BY the people who play better, and who knows better. If you want to improve, the first thing to accept is that there are actual differences here, you don't start out understanding a game better that players at the peak of comp, some humility please.

You think the kdk 3 is fine in tier 3 quickplay. Ok, that's fine, opinion noted. I disagree with that, it's imbalanced in QP too, but quickplay solo queue is certainly chaotic and potato sprinkled enough that overpowered mechs don't actually break the game. It's not a huge problem there, I agree, because there is no way to consistently leverage big imbalances there beyond racking up huge personal scores, which is pretty much fine in most cases.

Don't try to argue that it doesn't break the game at other levels because it absolutely does and the players playing there knows it. It is a huge problem in every venue where there is either play at high skill level, or where one or both sides are well coordinated. That means it's a problem in group queue, Faction warfare and every instance of competitive play where Kodiaks are a legal pick.

So there is a larger balance issue context to this, that the kdk 3 is a symbol of. When you combine clan tech with optimal design you get mechs that are severely overpowered in the current metagame. That needs to be fixed ASAP.

It's going to rear it's ugly head again and again if the only answer is directed nerfs to specific chassis, the tech bases needs to be properly balanced so you can actually release mechs like the Kodiak without creating huge balance issues every time. The bane is coming sooner or later, and so on, we better have this fixed by then.

AphexTwin11, on 04 November 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

PS: super 1337 "comp tier" doesn't define the game for the vast majority of the population.

Double PS: I can't 'just stop'. I must defend the KDK-3, and all other mechs unjustly persecuted & threatened with nerf beatings via forum whine. Plus, this is a fun alternative to the relatively mundane tasks I get at work ;-)

I think for this one I'll just trust myself to the safekeeping of whatever audience his thread has.

So go ahead and line up all the post Aphextwin11 made in this thread, compare it to the one (1) post I made, and then answer me first who that above image corresponds best to, and second if it and those "PS" one liners are a valid and appropriate response to the argument I made in my post.

[Mole]

MischiefSC, on 04 November 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

Wait wait, were you wrong again?

I call tell, cuz you posted.

I lol'd pretty hard at this line. Not gonna lie.

Edited by Mole, 05 November 2016 - 07:20 AM.

[Khereg]

I hate these "Chassis X is OP" arguments b/c the nature of OP is pretty subjective. But staying with ideas that can be shown to be objectively true, what we have in the case of the KDK (specifically the KDK-3) is:

1. It is widely considered to be the most powerful assault in the game as evidenced by the current season of MRBC matches as well as broad community feedback (see my first post in this thread for the references).

2. Assaults, in general, because they can take and dish out the most punishment are more at risk of becoming "OP' and the KDK-3 checks most, if not all of the boxes for this happening.

This next part is just my personal observation on a good approach to evaluating relative mech strength and will probably be controversial.

1. The KDK-3 has shifted the meta. You know what's back? Poptarting and serious use of PPFLD. Did something change with PPC's/Gauss, and other poptarting/PPFLD weapons to give them a buff from where they were a few months ago? No. What did change was KDK-3's melting everything that gave them more than 3 seconds of face time. Some will disagree that the KDK-3 specifically caused this, but the timing is pretty telling. The KDK-3 meta even evolved to compensate by shifting to a PPFLD loadout of its own to try to compete with the limited face time offered by poptarting/PPFLD'ing opponents.

2. Comp players generally have the most objective view of a mech's potential for abuse because comp players all operate at high levels of skill relative to the general population. Wide variations in skill exhibited during typical matches cloud the objectiveness of determining mech strength. Great players can wreck a typical pug in a Commando, but that doesn't make Commando's OP. What we see in comp matches, though, is that equally skilled players are choosing the KDK-3 whenever possible b/c it gives them a better chance of winning against similarly skilled opponents.

If you believe this, go back and look at the posts from the comp players in this thread and see just how similar they all are. For your reference, here's the folks I've recognized:

Quicksilver Kalasa (Steel Jaguar)
Terciel (Storm Panda)
McGral18 (Smoke Adders)
Khereg (Isengrim)
Deathlike (Night's Scorn)

I'd add MischiefSC to the list also, b/c even though he doesn't play on a comp team (that I know of), I know him and he's a student of the game in a similar vein to most comp players.

Now, what is this group collectively saying (with some minor variations)?

1. Yes, the KDK-3 is the strongest assault in the game by a significant margin. It's therefore OP and deserves to be nerfed, at least somewhat.

2. We don't really care if it happens. We've gone through a lot of variations on OP mechs over time, watched (or caused) the meta shift, adapted, and continue to be successful players. This will be no different.

I think that's as objective a set of observations/opinions as you're likely to get on the topic.

Edited by Khereg, 05 November 2016 - 08:27 AM.

[RestosIII]

I have no idea how anyone can refute that the KDK-3 is easily the best assault to ever exist. I also have no idea what the hell is going on here with some of these posts.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 04 November 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

Remember the rule: Don't balance by Potato

TercieI, on 04 November 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

Stated positively: Balance for the highest levels of play. Balance can trickle down, but if you balance for any level but the top, the top becomes about nothing more than finding loopholes. Unfortunately, nobody at PGI plays at anywhere near top level, so this is almost impossible.

Here's my take in all of this. From PGI's perspective working to keep the 90% and losing the 10% is much better than losing the former and keeping the latter.

As such, if balancing by potato keeps the 90%, then that is PGI's prerogative. The sacred cows () can go pound sand as far as PGI is concerned. It may be sad but also very true at the same time.

Edited by Mystere, 05 November 2016 - 09:51 AM.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 04 November 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

Balancing mechs for QP is like trying to balance forumula 1 race cars based on how 500 random people drive them to church ...

If MWO were a serious eSports event, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. But it is not. Worse, it's a game with an apparently under 60K player base. As such, PGI should have wasted ... Ahem! I meant ... "spent" less time "balancing" the game and more time building all the features still missing and finishing the miserably-less-than-half-baked ones.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 04 November 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

It's not about QP not mattering - of course it matters. The KDK 3 has skewed the PSR of countless players which, in turn, skews the PSR of everyone they play with. It's a problem that absolutely does impact everyone. That most people are not attentive enough to balance issues to notice doesn't mean the issue is minimal - it just means most people are pretty oblivious

I think this fragment above needs expounding on because I think doing so will open more avenues for discussion.

Who knows? I might even provide some good revelations.

Edited by Mystere, 05 November 2016 - 10:03 AM.

[RestosIII]

Mystere, on 05 November 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

Here's my take in all of this. From PGI's perspective working to keep the 90% and losing the 10% is much better than losing the former and keeping the latter.

As such, if balancing by potato keeps the 90%, then that is PGI's prerogative. The sacred cows () can go pound sand as far as PGI is concerned. It may be sad but also very true at the same time.

Mystere, on 05 November 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

If MWO were a serious eSports event, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. But it is not. Worse, it's a game with an apparently under 60K player base. As such, PGI should have wasted ... Ahem! I meant ... "spent" less time "balancing" the game and more time building all the features still missing and finishing the miserably-less-than-half-baked ones.

Mystere, on 05 November 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

I think this fragment above needs expounding on because I think doing so will open more avenues for discussion.

Who knows? I might even provide some good revelations.

You posted all of these within a 10 minute span of each other, with no-one else posting inbetween. Why would you make these separate.I beg of you. Stop.

[Mystere]

Khereg, on 05 November 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

1. The KDK-3 has shifted the meta. You know what's back? Poptarting and serious use of PPFLD. Did something change with PPC's/Gauss, and other poptarting/PPFLD weapons to give them a buff from where they were a few months ago? No. What did change was KDK-3's melting everything that gave them more than 3 seconds of face time. Some will disagree that the KDK-3 specifically caused this, but the timing is pretty telling. The KDK-3 meta even evolved to compensate by shifting to a PPFLD loadout of its own to try to compete with the limited face time offered by poptarting/PPFLD'ing opponents.

This alone is reason enough for me make PGI leave the KDK-3 alone while they get to do other more important things.

Khereg, on 05 November 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Now, what is this group collectively saying (with some minor variations)?
...
2. We don't really care if it happens. We've gone through a lot of variations on OP mechs over time, watched (or caused) the meta shift, adapted, and continue to be successful players. This will be no different.

Then they should have absolutely no problem with the above course of action.

Edited by Mystere, 05 November 2016 - 12:45 PM.

[Mystere]

RestosIII, on 05 November 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

You posted all of these within a 10 minute span of each other, with no-one else posting inbetween. Why would you make these separate.I beg of you. Stop.

Because as a general rule I want to reply to each post or poster separately, unless I feel the need to so do otherwise. I did not feel any need to do so this time.

Wanna buy a Mech Pack?