111 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

Alistair Winter, on 22 May 2016 - 01:57 AM, said:

Once again, I feel obliged to draw parallells to sports. These discussions would be so much easier if the people who "have a life" actually had more experience with sports in addition to video games. Because the "git gud" mentality wasn't invented by gamers, it's been a fairly common element in sports since the dawn of time.

I'm sure a few of you have at least dabbled in martial arts. You will know this already. Put a youtube video up where you're instructing or competing in martial arts, and 70% of the comments will most likely be "git gud" in some form or another. It's the same with most sports.

Not just sports, but anything in life that has a skill ceiling. Ever ridden with a bad driver and cringed at all the mistakes and flaws in their driving? It's not just about safety. Even at slow speeds it can be difficult to stomach quietly. You just just want to reach over and grab the wheel, or be a backseat driver.

Anyone who is good at something will have this reaction to someone making mistakes and botching it. However, most of us are polite and say nothing.

Still don't believe me? Watch this without fast forwarding it.



Anyway I watched a few minutes of that Doom review video just out of curiosity. The reviewer was clearly using a controller and was probably as bad at using it as I would be. He had a lot of trouble aiming with it. I could see how it might bug players who have been playing console games for years and have a good feel for it. It's also a great example for why the mouse and keyboard is so superior to the controller.

[wanderer]

oldradagast, on 22 May 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

Eh, while there is a "spirit of entitlement" on some level in all generations of humanity, I feel it is blown way out of proportion to what actually happens in recent years. I've grown very tired of hearing stories from the previous generation touting how "kids these days all get trophies just for showing up." It's simply not true, at least not in the grand scale. That same older generation also conveniently forgets all the things they had easier in life (more affordable college, health care, housing, better employment stability, etc.), thus putting them in no real position to judge others when they complain for not being able to achieve the same end results with the same effort put in, IMHO.

I can. For lack of name and shame, suffice it to say that I have friends in a kid's organized sporting league, that being soccer. It's a stable number of players (they don't want to overwhelm the limited referee/coaching adults), but the people in charge have had to ask for a change in the budget twice in the past six years.

For buying more trophies because they wanted everyone to get "participation awards" and making sure the top 10 teams all got shiny rewards.

There are 24 teams in the league. The second increase was to make sure that rather than the top 10, all 24 teams got the exact same trophy for playing. They also discarded the entire thing of having official first-second-third rankings. Everyone plays, everyone gets the same trophies and ribbon.

Apparently, teaching that someone can be better than someone else or a system that supports it has become a sin.

Edited by wanderer, 22 May 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[Raso]

wanderer, on 22 May 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

We'd probably have a lot less git-guding if the matchmaker/tier system actually worked to split the good from the not-so-good from the "why on earth did you download this game" players.

But it doesn't, because Paul believes the best thing for PSR is automatically pushing everyone up into T1.

Players who have no reason to be in a match with other players is the ideal breeding ground for gitguds. Fix the tier system so people can, do and will go meaningfully downwards with poor and repeated performance in matches and you might see the term used with less righteousness.

A ranking system that is a participation reward is ultimately useless.

I liked how Halo 3 did it. You had a ranked queue and a casual queue. There was a place where the ultra competitive, high skill level players could congregate and be free and another queue where people who didn't have the luxury or desire to invest their entire lives into the game could hop on and have fun. Both were further split up based on one's rank and skill level.

[Trauglodyte]

ThreeStooges, on 21 May 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Seen it typed in chat and to those who use it I laugh at your ten year old mentality. One bad match doesn't mean you suck at the game. You just had a bad match and with all the disconnects due to server issues that pgi themselves has admitted to as well as saying they won't have a hot fix till monday at the earliest you might want to read this:


https://www.pastemag...-take-game.html

To a point, a lot of time, you need to tell people that they suck because, if you don't, they're going to continue to suck for no freaking reason. Like, telling people not to pilot into bad areas or doing stupid things like not twisting. Honestly, the game is full of awful people and there are those out there that probably think that I'm bad. I'm all about listening to better players when I make mistakes. But, when we're playing a game where you're going to absolutely be grouped with folks that are 1-2 tiers below you, folks need to be told when they screw up. I enjoy playing this game for fun and having bad people doing stupid things that are pretty obvious needs to stop so that those same people don't screw me over again in the future. AND, they might enjoy the game more by being corrected and not having their faces pounded over and over again because of their stupid mistakes.

That's just me, though.

[Mister Blastman]

Raso, on 22 May 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

No shaming is not ok. Most people who don't play well already know they don't play well. Even if they lie about it and blame their entire team very few people are so stupid that they do not know they are not good at something. Shaming someone will aggravate them and eventually push them away. It contributes to the culture of exclusion where only the eleite aour allowed to enjoy a gameplay experience.

Here's a quick guideline to use to tell if what you're doing to other players in beneficial to the game or make you into a jerk who is harming the game's community. If it's not something a professional NBA, NFL or MLB player would say to another human being then you're probably about to come off as an elitist jerk and damage the community. If the very best of the best of professional sportsman can treat everyone with dignity and still be the best of the best then so can we.

SHAMING AND EXCLUSION ARE OKAY!
Everything is not equal in life! There are two kinds of people in this world and ONLY two...

The ones doing the pushing and the ones getting pushed. (substitute favorite words here as what I wrote is very G-rated).

I don't watch professional sports. I find them dull and intellectually draining.

And NO, most bads don't know they are bad! The sheer number of threads started on these forums complaining about cheating or bugs or flaws or whatever that are anything but proves that for me.

Bads NEED to be told they are bad. Players help them when they point out they're terrible at the game and once they have that eureka moment--when their Dunning Kruger syndrome is smashed... they can then begin to correct their errors and truly embrace a culture of improvement and eventual success.

When I send my novels out to my beta readers, I WANT them to tell me it sucks! I WANT them to point out all the problems! I WANT them to tell me something is absolutely terrible trash and not worthy of even a piece of soiled toilet paper. It is only then I can see where my weakest points of prose lie, or where the story is broken and figure out how to fix it.

This is why shaming and exclusion are good things. They set standards and things to strive for.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 22 May 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Raso, on 22 May 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

No shaming is not ok. Most people who don't play well already know they don't play well. Even if they lie about it and blame their entire team very few people are so stupid that they do not know they are not good at something. Shaming someone will aggravate them and eventually push them away. It contributes to the culture of exclusion where only the eleite aour allowed to enjoy a gameplay experience.

Here's a quick guideline to use to tell if what you're doing to other players in beneficial to the game or make you into a jerk who is harming the game's community. If it's not something a professional NBA, NFL or MLB player would say to another human being then you're probably about to come off as an elitist jerk and damage the community. If the very best of the best of professional sportsman can treat everyone with dignity and still be the best of the best then so can we.

So...what you are saying is shaming and exclusion should be shamed and excluded. Right ok gottcha.

[Raso]

Mister Blastman, on 22 May 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

SHAMING AND EXCLUSION ARE OKAY!
Everything is not equal in life! There are two kinds of people in this world and ONLY two...

The ones doing the pushing and the ones getting pushed. (substitute favorite words here as what I wrote is very G-rated).

I don't watch professional sports. I find them dull and intellectually draining.

And NO, most bads don't know they are bad! The sheer number of threads started on these forums complaining about cheating or bugs or flaws or whatever that are anything but proves that for me.

Bads NEED to be told they are bad. Players help them when they point out they're terrible at the game and once they have that eureka moment--when their Dunning Kruger syndrome is smashed... they can then begin to correct their errors and truly embrace a culture of improvement and eventual success.

When I send my novels out to my beta readers, I WANT them to tell me it sucks! I WANT them to point out all the problems! I WANT them to tell me something is absolutely terrible trash and not worthy of even a piece of soiled toilet paper. It is only then I can see where my weakest points of prose lie, or where the story is broken and figure out how to fix it.

This is why shaming and exclusion are good things. They set standards and things to strive for.

You are exactly the sort of toxic player that prevents people from enjoying themselves. There's nothing left to argue. You are both utterly wrong and incomprehensibly narcissistic.

[Raso]

Ghogiel, on 22 May 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

So...what you are saying is shaming and exclusion should be shamed and excluded. Right ok gottcha.

That's like saying being intolerant of intolerance is as bad as actually bigotry or racism. If you legitimately don't tell the difference odds are you lack the mental faculties to learn them. Git gud, son, and learn the difference between helpful and harmful behaviour and why highlighting amd criticizing disrespectful behavior is not a sign of disrespect.

[Choppah]

I have a story about MWO regarding this very subject. Almost a year ago a friend of mine asks me if I want to hop into a group session on teamspeak with a really good comp MWO player who was doling out lessons to help other players get better (not Church of Skill FYI). So I join the TS channel and the MWO group drops. The comp player sees how we are playing and gives advice. It was nice at first, but the more matches we played, the worst it got. He started barking orders, expecting these PUGs who are trying to learn, to suddenly understand complex commands and terms they probably never heard of. After many drops my friend says he will be back in a couple mins. During the down time, the comp player turns his gaze on me running my Banshee (a standard laser vomit build, but at the time this was before it skyrocketed to the top of the meta) and asks me a question. "Your running a Banshee right, let me ask you... Do you play to win?"

I was completely caught off guard, not only has the 3M been a good mech since its release, it remains to this day one of the best assaults. I wasn't expected to be graded in a PUG group that was supposed to be about gaining insight and tips. I mostly do solo play, and I had thought this would be a more casual setting so I was more focused on what the comp player was doing and how he ran a team, and instead of taking initiative I was deferring to him insofar as doing damage, positioning, focus firing, etc. Naturally when your reaction time is determined by someone else, your performance will suffer if you are new to this type of group structure. In other words, my performance was below my own par let alone whatever this comp player wanted.

My only response was "Oh I see... I guess I'm in the wrong group." I exit the TS channel and the MWO group. My friend comes back to his PC, sees that I am gone, messages me, and I explain to him what happened. We decide to play in our own group because the entire group the comp player was leading had dissolved in the couple minutes he had stepped away. I guess the other players couldn't stand this guy's attitude either.

My main problem with super competitive people: Winning is the only thing that is fun in their minds. It matters not what the game's lore, setting, and mechanics are. Everything not enabling them to win is completely unworthy of their time in their eyes. I, on the other hand, only care about a good game. A match in which there was an equal chance of both sides winning and victory was not certain until the last moments of the match is my ideal of a good game.

That is not to say I am totally ok with terribad players who are not even trying, have no idea what they are doing, or are actively goofing around. I expect, as I'm sure many here do, that players play the game to the best of their ability and not every aspect of their ability is based on skill. Communication and coordination can do far more in team based games than how well you can aim.

Last paragraph I swear. Winning isn't everything, in any sport or game, someone has to lose. If your only enjoyment from playing a game is in winning, you are going to have some rough times in your life. Life isn't fair and you "lose" in many different ways, some of which you have no control over. Old board games understood this as they were more or less emulations for war. In chess if you lost most of your pieces but still won the game how would that work out for you in real life? Looking at a battlefield of dead soldiers formerly under your command would weigh more on your mind than whatever objective you accomplished. At least a normal person would feel that way, the behavior I see in the hyper competitive tilts on the sociopath side. I imagine their reaction would be the equivalent of "GG close, get rekt scrubs".

TLDR: Winning isn't everything, try your hardest and have fun, win or lose, or go home.

[C E Dwyer]

allow me to add some quality to this thread

Testicles

[Mister Blastman]

Raso, on 22 May 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

You are exactly the sort of toxic player that prevents people from enjoying themselves. There's nothing left to argue. You are both utterly wrong and incomprehensibly narcissistic.

Wrong? I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were the authority.

I'm not narcissistic, I'm truthful. Your problem is you don't want to hear nor handle the truth. The truth sets us free. When a bad player hears and finally realizes they are bad, they can then pick themselves up and achieve something great.

Oh, and since we're fretting over definitions here...

Quote

narcissist (n):

1. Someone in love with themselves.
2. A selfish person.

If I said, "I'm the greatest player in the world!" or, "Look at me! Look at my stats and my score!" or, "Hey! You hear about that Blastman fellow, he's awesome!" while looking at myself in a mirror, well, then I might be one. But I never said that in this thread. I said that bad players should know the truth so they can improve.

How is telling someone they are bad selfish! It is selfish to withhold the truth! It is selfish to prop them up with a false sense of pride by giving them participation trophies!

The least selfish thing anyone can ever do is to tell someone where their flaws and mistakes lie--to break the crystal veil so they may understand reality for what it is, not what they think or perceive it as.

Methinks you should try again.

[oldradagast]

wanderer, on 22 May 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

I can. For lack of name and shame, suffice it to say that I have friends in a kid's organized sporting league, that being soccer. It's a stable number of players (they don't want to overwhelm the limited referee/coaching adults), but the people in charge have had to ask for a change in the budget twice in the past six years.

Apparently, teaching that someone can be better than someone else or a system that supports it has become a sin.

And your last sentence is the problem I have with the "old timers" who grumble about my generation; they take one experience and blow it all out of proportion and declare that it must now be a universal truth everywhere. It's no different than having a bad experience at a restaurant and declaring that "nobody knows how to cook good food these days," or a bad experience at an auto mechanic and declaring that "nobody knows how to fix cars honestly these days."

There is NO universal evidence that "kids these days are sooooo entitled" compared to previous generations - just lots of whining that it's "not ok" to tell people that they suck and laugh at them for it.... because that's apparently what we need more of, I guess.

Edited by oldradagast, 22 May 2016 - 10:04 AM.

[BGrey]

Ghogiel, on 22 May 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

So...what you are saying is shaming and exclusion should be shamed and excluded. Right ok gottcha.

Most of this thread is like that. Just as the "git gud" crowd they are complaining about, they are trying to tear someone down showing that they are better at something. In this case its just their amazing non-sociopathic non-basement dwelling existence rather than supposed gaming ability. The joke is they are the same, the only difference is how they are trying to build themselves up in comparison to someone else.

Edited by BGrey, 22 May 2016 - 10:08 AM.

[oldradagast]

Mister Blastman, on 22 May 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

I'm not narcissistic, I'm truthful. Your problem is you don't want to hear nor handle the truth. The truth sets us free. When a bad player hears and finally realizes they are bad, they can then pick themselves up and achieve something great.

Shaming is not the same as helpful criticism to improve one's skills, and exclusion in a game based upon skill level is a bratty and stupid response. It's a game - there's nothing on the line, and anyone who loses it over "too many bads on my team!" needs to take a break, not get special treatment to coddle their pathological need to win or be better than everyone else. It's just a game - nobody here is saying "everyone should be allowed to do anything regardless of skill level." Again, people taking one example - "I'm not allowed to shame people in games" - and blowing it all out of proporation - "Next you know, skill won't matter anywhere in life!"

If you want to tell a new player, "Shooting SRM's at a target 600 m away won't hit anything," sure, that's fine. Telling him, "you stuck, stoopid noob!" and then being proud of shaming him because somehow that useless, fact-free insult is going to make him a better player... well, you're not fooling anyone.

Edited by oldradagast, 22 May 2016 - 10:16 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Raso, on 22 May 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

That's like saying being intolerant of intolerance is as bad as actually bigotry or racism. If you legitimately don't tell the difference odds are you lack the mental faculties to learn them. Git gud, son, and learn the difference between helpful and harmful behaviour and why highlighting amd criticizing disrespectful behavior is not a sign of disrespect.

No it's not actually.

[Mister Blastman]

oldradagast, on 22 May 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Shaming is not the same as helpful criticism to improve one's skills, and exclusion in a game based upon skill level is a childish, bratty, and stupid response. It's a game - there's nothing on the line, and anyone who loses it over "too many bads on my team!" needs to walk away from the game for a while, not get special treatment to coddle their pathological need to win or be better than everyone else.

Nobody here is saying that life should have no exclusions, so that some random guy off the street can decide to perform brain surgery or something one day because: entitlement, no exclusions allowed, or some other dumb excuse. What is being said - which should be obvious by now - is that spewing idiocy like "git gud, stupood noob" is nothing but borderline sociopath behavior. It is not "helpful' and it is "not going to help a bad player realize that needs to get better."

The excuses people make up to justify their bad attitudes and total lack of empathy or social skills. "Really, I'm not a jerk - I cursed him out and booted him from my team to help him improve his game!" Right...

Winning is not a pathological problem. Winning is an essential ingredient of life. Winning is in our DNA. The trees, plants, animals, insects, bacteria, fungi--every living thing you see around you is there because they won.

Winning is the essence of life. Those that lose go extinct. Winners prevail.

Winning is not a disease, winning is the cure.

There absolutely should be situations where bad players are excluded. I remember being benched in little league because other players were better than me. Did I complain about it? Did I shout, "no fair!"

No.

I realized that I sucked and it was up to me alone to correct the problem by becoming a better player.

[oldradagast]

Mister Blastman, on 22 May 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

Winning is not a pathological problem. Winning is an essential ingredient of life. Winning is in our DNA. The trees, plants, animals, insects, bacteria, fungi--every living thing you see around you is there because they won.

Winning is the essence of life. Those that lose go extinct. Winners prevail.

Winning is not a disease, winning is the cure.

Slipper slope argument much? Get back to me when the losers in a flipping game "go extinct" because of it.

"Oh, no - somebody on the internet said people should be allowed to play a video game regardless of skill level without being insulted and shamed by their betters! The horror; clearly, he thinks skill doesn't matter anywhere in life, everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want, and everyone will go extinct from this!"

If you want to form a private team, league, faction group or whatever and exclude people based on skill or commitment, sure - that's fine and perfectly reasonable, although being a jerk to unqualified applicants is still pathetic. But blasting people in an open game because they don't measure up to your skill levels is simply childish and - yes - indicates a deeper problem. Defending such behavior with the slipper slope fallacy doesn't justify it.

Edited by oldradagast, 22 May 2016 - 10:22 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

oldradagast, on 22 May 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

Get back to me when the losers in a flipping game "go extinct" because of it.

Good riddance when they do. I look forward to more balanced matchups.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Ghogiel, on 21 May 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

Git gud is the mantra of faction play.

I thought it was teamwork is OP...

[oldradagast]

Mister Blastman, on 22 May 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

Good riddance when they do. I look forward to more balanced matchups.

Ah, so now we get to a moment of honesty; you have no actual good reason to justify shaming those "beneath" you except you want better matches, which you feel justifies shaming "lesser" players until they go away. Good to know that it's a purely selfish motivation, now that we've worked our way past your initial absurdities of "shaming is the same as helping" and "winning in video game is the same as preventing your species from going extinct."

Sad, really...

Gee, I wonder why PGI wouldn't support your model? Oh, right - because it's a game and the more players they have, they more money they make. Shock!

Edited by oldradagast, 22 May 2016 - 10:53 AM.