1017 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

Its funny because I sometimes throw a 82-84 alpha potential on my spirit bear just to. good for one alpha-ish, but that's about it . Something, something, power creep, something I don't care.

[Gyrok]

TheArisen, on 27 May 2016 - 03:40 AM, said:

I'm too lazy to go thru 10 pages of arguments so here's my opinion.

The Kodiak is IMO too powerful for offensive quirks. I'm talking the 3 & 1 mainly. Being a faster, more mobile Dwolf with high mounted weapons isn't really balanced. I mean, do you really think quad ultra 10s at cockpit height is ok? Basically, ONLY take off it's offensive quirks. Keep the defensive ones. I'm just saying the Kodiak posses too much firepower.

Yes it's a little squishy but it's firepower dwarfs that.

There are no offensive quirks, at all.

[Jackal Noble]

Gyrok join me in throwing out fictitious buffs for the Kodiak, it's good honest fun.

[Davis Carlyle]

JackalBeast, on 27 May 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Gyrok join me in throwing out fictitious buffs for the Kodiak, it's good honest fun.

10% bonus to UAC Projectile Speed?

50% decreased Jam Chance?

15% decreased Heat Gen on UAC?

[TheArisen]

Roadkill, on 27 May 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

The point is that it isn't OP any more so than the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90. They're all different, but equally viable.

So if you want to nerf the KDK-3, then logically you should also be arguing to nerf the IS triumverate. But you aren't... which makes me wonder what your bias is?

The 3 is better than either the Wubshee or MX90. The Wubshee uses an IS XL & the MX90 with the ultras or ×5 5s needs a small std engine and they're mounted much lower than the 3's cockpit height mounts.

I don't need to own a Kdk to know it's straight up better than the Dwolf. I'm not saying nerf it into the ground, just dial it back a smidgen. But you guys love your new toy so you won't even think about what I'm saying.

[Bishop Steiner]

TheArisen, on 27 May 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

The 3 is better than either the Wubshee or MX90. The Wubshee uses an IS XL & the MX90 with the ultras or ×5 5s needs a small std engine and they're mounted much lower than the 3's cockpit height mounts.

I don't need to own a Kdk to know it's straight up better than the Dwolf. I'm not saying nerf it into the ground, just dial it back a smidgen. But you guys love your new toy so you won't even think about what I'm saying.

actually, I find the KDK3 boring.

And at medium to long range, the MAL straight up owns the KDK3. At pointblank facehugging, the AS7-S and DakkaWolf are it's equals, at the least, for numerous reasons stated throughout this thread. The AS7-S has massive FLD advanatage and ridiculous levels of structure buff, whereas the DWF has as much firepower or more than the KDK and is better able to spread damage.

It's not a black and white SmurfyWarrior issue. The KDK has the better tactical flexibility, due to speed, the mobility is decent but hardly ballerina like, and fails to matter at the most important part, spreading damage due to bad hitboxes and massive size, and it's firepower is very high heat, not low heat, and DPS meaning if it's to deliver that "evil alpha" it can't even TRY to twist.

Perhaps if folks would stop conveniently overlooking everything but the paper KPH and Alpha Number, then the arguments against would hold more creedence.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Roadkill, on 26 May 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

Then nerf the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90 at the same time. The KDK-3 is no more OP than any of those 3, so fair is fair, right?

It makes no sense to partially correct a problem. If you're going to argue that the KDK-3 needs to be nerfed because it's a little too good, then you're either biased or you have to argue to nerf all of the equally (or more) powerful Mechs right along with it.

It's not a bad thing for the Clans to have one assault that can keep up with the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90.

The whole problem is its Clan and its good. So, ofc it has to be nerfed.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Perhaps if folks would stop conveniently overlooking everything but the paper KPH and Alpha Number, then the arguments against would hold more creedence.

But how are SpreadsheetWarriors (or SmurfyWarriors) supposed to model/analyze anything beyond static values?

[1453 R]

TheArisen, on 27 May 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

The 3 is better than either the Wubshee or MX90. The Wubshee uses an IS XL & the MX90 with the ultras or ×5 5s needs a small std engine and they're mounted much lower than the 3's cockpit height mounts.

I don't need to own a Kdk to know it's straight up better than the Dwolf. I'm not saying nerf it into the ground, just dial it back a smidgen. But you guys love your new toy so you won't even think about what I'm saying.

Actually, most of you guys are talking about "FINISH HIM"-level MegaGigaGaggleNerfs for pretty much the entire chassis. Perhaps not you, Arisen, in particular, but the general idea seems to be "Kill it with FIRE...then maybe give it a few uptweaks later after we find out that -30% RedQuirks aren't actually warranted. But...don't remove those RedQuirks, okay?"

Really, I read things like this:

MischiefSC, on 26 May 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

It just irks me that if the KDK had lower hardpoints and better hitboxes it would be a rock solid, great Clan performer. The assault they needed. Maybe some structure quirks and some minor mobility quirks on the under performers but a great assault.

and it just makes me wonder why I even bother. Because apparently the Banshee is allowed to have Metatinator-level cockpit-or-better hardpoints that furthermore come with multiple offensive free-weapon-module quirks, but the first time a Clan assault 'Mech has hardpoints above its knees the world explodes into flames. Does anyone at all fight with the hardpoints in an Executioner's arms? That oh-so-broken 7E arm that nobody at all uses because the Executioner's arms are so low you damn near have to engage the jump jets just to drag them out of the dirt channels they carve behind you before you fire?

...that's what people want to do to the Kodiak?

30% or greater RedQuirks, move the hardpoints down below the bellybutton, and maybe fix the hitboxes while they're busy butchering the entire chassis?

I try not to perpetuate the common idiotic forum stereotropes, there's enough idiots who honestly believe most of them that I refuse to assist...but seriously. Are the Clans just supposed to ignore the assault weight category altogether? because every assault-weight 'Mech we get is either butt on a stick or gets screamed until it's reduced to butt on a stick.

Gaaah.

[Roadkill]

TheArisen, on 27 May 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

The 3 is better than either the Wubshee or MX90. The Wubshee uses an IS XL & the MX90 with the ultras or ×5 5s needs a small std engine and they're mounted much lower than the 3's cockpit height mounts.

I don't need to own a Kdk to know it's straight up better than the Dwolf. I'm not saying nerf it into the ground, just dial it back a smidgen. But you guys love your new toy so you won't even think about what I'm saying.

It isn't strictly better than any of those, for the reasons already repeated several times in this thread. It's better in its own perfect environment, but gets owned by the Wubshee and Fatlass at short range and the MX90 at long range. (And by the Dire Wolf at both.) It owns all 4 of the above at its preferred engagement range of 300-400 meters.

Kinda sounds like it's balanced to me.

Strangely enough, I'm getting better match scores in my Spirit Bear LRM boat now than I do in my KDK-3 quad UAC/10 boat. It does more damage, gets more KMDD, gets more assists, lives longer, and is just generally more useful despite being an LRM boat than the KDK-3. I freely admit that wouldn't be true in comp play, but it's absolutely true in Solo Quick Play.

Think about THAT for a bit.

[Roadkill]

Roadkill, on 27 May 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

a.) It doesn't have an 80-pt alpha, it has a 40-pt alpha that generates Ghost Heat. It's manageable, but it isn't "low heat" as you claim.

b.) If you want to double tap to get 80 points of damage, you're spreading that damage at least as bad as lasers (meaning it can be rolled). And if you double tap too rapidly, you're getting Ghost Heat from firing 8 AC/10s. I haven't tried it, but it wouldn't surprise me if it shuts you down.

This made me curious, so I ran a quick test on Forest Colony.

Single alpha = 20% heat
Double tap after half a second = 38% heat
Double tap too fast = 52% heat

So no, it isn't all that cool if you're trying for "80 point alphas". However it's very cool in 2-by-2 mode fired every ~0.6 seconds. Continuous stream of damage for as long as RNGesus loves you.

[MischiefSC]

Roadkill, on 27 May 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

The point is that it isn't OP any more so than the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90. They're all different, but equally viable.

So if you want to nerf the KDK-3, then logically you should also be arguing to nerf the IS triumverate. But you aren't... which makes me wonder what your bias is?

That would only be logical if they were comparable. They are not.

If the Mauler was as fast and maneuverable and had cxls that fit with the 5xAC5 build then absolutely. That would be broken with existing quirks. If you then moved the hardpoints to shoulder height I'd ask wtf PGI was thinking.

It has none of that though. It's incredibly slow and clumsy, mid torso hardpoints and oh yeah, it's not doing 80 pts over about a second. it's doing 50.

So to clarify, if the Mauler performed like the KDK3 I would absolutely say nerf it because it would not be balanced. If the Phoenix Hawk comes out with Spider hitboxes, 30% heat gen quirks and over the shoulder hardpoints I'll be calling BS as well. If the Cyclops comes out and happens to have its hardpoints mover to shoulder height, 40% ballistic cooldown and insane mobility quirks I'll call BS.

Quit trying to make this about Clan vs IS or say that because the KDK3 is imbalanced the balanced mechs need nerfed too. That's all flat BS. On its face it's obviously imbalanced and the comp players, you know the people who play the edge of balance and have consistently identified balance issues in mechs.

I get having a mech that dominates is fun. Being able to puke up 80 pts in a moment or two and hop into cover is obviously very cool and being able to poke and apply it from high mounts with a fast heavy or even a mediums mobility is great.

Not balanced though. Silly to say it is.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

It has none of that though. It's incredibly slow and clumsy, mid torso hardpoints and oh yeah

Mid torso is a bit disingenuous, they are higher mounted on the Mauler than you give them credit for, they just aren't HBK-IIC-A high like the KDK-3 mounts. They are more equivalent to the highest 4 mounts on the GHR-5P as they certainly aren't as low as the torso ballistics on the Dire which are mid torso.
They are shoulder level, just not over the shoulder like the top 2 mounts are essentially on the Kodiak.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 May 2016 - 01:34 PM.

[Josef Koba]

I haven't even dropped in mine yet... I haven't had time, but I also don't want to get used to it performing one way and then have it smashed into oblivion. Basically, I don't want to get attached to it.

[MischiefSC]

1453 R, on 27 May 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

Actually, most of you guys are talking about "FINISH HIM"-level MegaGigaGaggleNerfs for pretty much the entire chassis. Perhaps not you, Arisen, in particular, but the general idea seems to be "Kill it with FIRE...then maybe give it a few uptweaks later after we find out that -30% RedQuirks aren't actually warranted. But...don't remove those RedQuirks, okay?"

Really, I read things like this:


and it just makes me wonder why I even bother. Because apparently the Banshee is allowed to have Metatinator-level cockpit-or-better hardpoints that furthermore come with multiple offensive free-weapon-module quirks, but the first time a Clan assault 'Mech has hardpoints above its knees the world explodes into flames. Does anyone at all fight with the hardpoints in an Executioner's arms? That oh-so-broken 7E arm that nobody at all uses because the Executioner's arms are so low you damn near have to engage the jump jets just to drag them out of the dirt channels they carve behind you before you fire?

...that's what people want to do to the Kodiak?

30% or greater RedQuirks, move the hardpoints down below the bellybutton, and maybe fix the hitboxes while they're busy butchering the entire chassis?

I try not to perpetuate the common idiotic forum stereotropes, there's enough idiots who honestly believe most of them that I refuse to assist...but seriously. Are the Clans just supposed to ignore the assault weight category altogether? because every assault-weight 'Mech we get is either butt on a stick or gets screamed until it's reduced to butt on a stick.

Gaaah.

This argument is so dishonest I really don'tknow if even you believe it.

So the Wubshee has 2 hardpoints, with LPLS in them it's 22pts of damage every 2.5 seconds at cockpit level. The rest are all significantly lower. The Wubshee doesn't take own a KDK3 at close range - it just has a chance at close range as opposed to none at 300m+. If you're not totally oblivious and don't face hump a fresh Atlas you can win that one too. If you can't close on a Mauler in a KDK again, you've got issues. You should be able to cripple or kill him before he's done more than 75 pts to you - at best.

The point is that they're not comparable, the KDK3 is better. That some people are bad pilots and thus can't exploit that isn't a good argument.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 May 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

Mid torso is a bit disingenuous, they are higher mounted on the Mauler than you give them credit for, they just aren't HBK-IIC-A high like the KDK-3 mounts. They are more equivalent to the highest 4 mounts on the GHR-5P as they certainly aren't as low as the torso ballistics on the Dire which are mid torso.
They are shoulder level, just not over the shoulder like the top 2 mounts are essentially on the Kodiak.

Both relative to the cockpit and what they can clear for obstacles they're just above mid-torso on the Mauler. Try to poke with the Mauler, it's more about settling in and waiting for someone to walk into view and 1/2 of your mech is exposed. You can peek head and shoulders in. KDk3 and not feed shots into a hill.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Both relative to the cockpit and what they can clear for obstacles they're just above mid-torso on the Mauler.

The lowest pair is above mid-torso yes (just like the GHR-5P's mid pair) but the rest are surprisingly high that allows you to clear terrain much better than an all torso Dakka Whale. It isn't just the velocity that makes the Mauler better than the Whale for long range dakka. Maybe I'm mis-remembering the thing since I haven't played it in a bit, but I do remember that it clears terrain much better than the Dakka Whale, even if you just fire the Whale's torso mounts.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 May 2016 - 01:55 PM.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

So the Wubshee has 2 hardpoints, with LPLS in them it's 22pts of damage every 2.5 seconds at cockpit level.

5 high mounted, actually, and you can effectively load up 5 LPLs (and load GH up), or just 3 to LOLpha all day.


All 5 are higher mounted than the Kodiak, and you CAN alpha them (for bad GH, 70-80% IIRC) for a 55 dam LOLpha


Kodiak has both higher and lower, but still effective (it does need to expose more, however)



I do have to ask who's asking for the Giganerfs, though. Most of what I've seen is dequirking the 3, without hyperbole

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 May 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

The lowest pair is above mid-torso yes (just like the GHR-5P's mid pair) but the rest are surprisingly high that allows you to clear terrain much better than an all torso Dakka Whale. It isn't just the velocity that makes the Mauler better than the Whale for long range dakka. Maybe I'm mis-remembering the thing since I haven't played it in a bit, but I do remember that it clears terrain much better than the Dakka Whale, even if you just fire the Whale's torso mounts.

Was comparing to KDK, not the Whale. Whale is a knuckle dragged. Ironically really, all the nerfs on the Dire, gimping it and they still refuse to fix that mech but the KDK gets all the opposite perks and is considered balanced.

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

5 high mounted, actually, and you can effectively load up 5 LPLs (and load GH up), or just 3 to LOLpha all day.


All 5 are higher mounted than the Kodiak, and you CAN alpha them (for bad GH, 70-80% IIRC) for a 55 dam LOLpha


Kodiak has both higher and lower, but still effective (it does need to expose more, however)



I do have to ask who's asking for the Giganerfs, though. Most of what I've seen is dequirking the 3, without hyperbole

5 lpl wubshee. It's a giggle fest. I enjoy it for kicks and have run it on Grim, it's not bad.

The hardpoints are not all the same height though. Also not as mobile, hotter for less damage, is xl v cXL, etc.

You also hit it with the "nerfs". Nobody is asking for nerfs. Just removing quirks.

Simple question - all quirks removed, would the kdk3 still be a great performer? How about the wubshee?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 May 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

The lowest pair is above mid-torso yes (just like the GHR-5P's mid pair) but the rest are surprisingly high that allows you to clear terrain much better than an all torso Dakka Whale. It isn't just the velocity that makes the Mauler better than the Whale for long range dakka. Maybe I'm mis-remembering the thing since I haven't played it in a bit, but I do remember that it clears terrain much better than the Dakka Whale, even if you just fire the Whale's torso mounts.

Was comparing to KDK, not the Whale. Whale is a knuckle dragged. Ironically really, all the nerfs on the Dire, gimping it and they still refuse to fix that mech but the KDK gets all the opposite perks and is considered balanced.

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

5 high mounted, actually, and you can effectively load up 5 LPLs (and load GH up), or just 3 to LOLpha all day.


All 5 are higher mounted than the Kodiak, and you CAN alpha them (for bad GH, 70-80% IIRC) for a 55 dam LOLpha


Kodiak has both higher and lower, but still effective (it does need to expose more, however)



I do have to ask who's asking for the Giganerfs, though. Most of what I've seen is dequirking the 3, without hyperbole

5 lpl wubshee. It's a giggle fest. I enjoy it for kicks and have run it on Grim, it's not bad.

The hardpoints are not all the same height though. Also not as mobile, hotter for less damage, is xl v cXL, etc.

You also hit it with the "nerfs". Nobody is asking for nerfs. Just removing quirks.

Simple question - all quirks removed, would the kdk3 still be a great performer? How about the wubshee?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

I do have to ask who's asking for the Giganerfs, though. Most of what I've seen is dequirking the 3, without hyperbole

There have been some (moreso on reddit) asking for the top hardpoints being remodeled lower (essentially) and potentially for nega-quirks. There have been several being more conservative, but not everyone is.

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

Was comparing to KDK, not the Whale. Whale is a knuckle dragged.

The torso ballistics aren't knuckle dragging, they are mid-torso iirc. I was comparing the Mauler mounts to the Dire though, because one is much better at poking with their torso mounts than the other, and the Dire isn't it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 May 2016 - 02:22 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 May 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

There have been some (moreso on reddit) asking for the top hardpoints being remodeled lower (essentially) and potentially for nega-quirks. There have been several being more conservative, but not everyone is.


The torso ballistics aren't knuckle dragging, they are mid-torso iirc. I was comparing the Mauler mounts to the Dire though, because one is much better at poking with their torso mounts than the other, and the Dire isn't it.

World of difference between the Dire mid torso mounts and anyone else's mid torso mounts. With the center position cockpit the mid torso mounts on the Dire are sorta cockpit level - just the mechs low positioning makes it a groin shot on most mechs.

The Dire needs a lot of love.